Is there a verse?

[VineBranch]

Oh, you've had my cake then?

[eaglesway]

Oh, you've had my cake then?

Was it a layer cake with fire in the middle?

[VineBranch]

Oh, you've had my cake then?

Was it a layer cake with fire in the middle?

Yah, that was it.  A slayer cake with a tire in the middle.  The tire actually then goes around my middle, but we'll just keep that to ourselves.

[micah7:9]

So there is no verse to deny or contradict. It just amazes me in my humble frame that the Bible states clearly that all men will be saved, but that men of religion and denominations who claim a love from God, will fight adamantly against that very stated truth, and try to use verses from the Bible that need twisting to battle it. Can it be called a hate doctrine?
When one really considers the teaching of eternal punishment, from a God of love, that teaching is like one massive hollow tomb filled with silent echos.

[VineBranch]

So there is no verse to deny or contradict. It just amazes me in my humble frame that the Bible states clearly that all men will be saved, but that men of religion and denominations who claim a love from God, will fight adamantly against that very stated truth, and try to use verses from the Bible that need twisting to battle it. Can it be called a hate doctrine?
When one really considers the teaching of eternal punishment, from a God of love, that teaching is like one massive hollow tomb filled with silent echos.

I think in some ways yes.  It has been my experience though that most pastors, or church leaders haven't (as a rule:  there are some wonderful exceptions), actually thought past what they have been told to preach.  I read a stat in the ninties which showed that doctors who graduated in the eighties had not by and large learned anything new about medicine since graduation.  I fear the same thing may be true for ministers and pastors.  Those who went to cemetery, learned what they were told, then preached it, and now it's their job, and that's about as much as they care.  :2c:

[eaglesway]

Ambition, fear, pride, general self-interest forbids the breaking of orthodoxy.

[VineBranch]

Ambition, fear, pride, general self-interest forbids the breaking of orthodoxy.

Or is "Ambition, fear, pride, general self-interest" the orthodoxy?

[micah7:9]

Ambition, fear, pride, general self-interest forbids the breaking of orthodoxy.

Or is "Ambition, fear, pride, general self-interest" the orthodoxy?

Yeah! Glory you got it! :dsunny:

[Captain.Theophilus]

I don't have any evidence to refute it, but I do have something else:


New International Version (©1984)
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
New Living Translation (©2007)
who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

English Standard Version (©2001)
who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

International Standard Version (©2012)
who wants all people to be saved and to come to know the truth fully.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
He who wills that all people shall have Life, and shall be converted to the knowledge of the truth.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
He wants all people to be saved and to learn the truth.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

American King James Version
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

American Standard Version
who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Darby Bible Translation
who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

English Revised Version
who willeth that all men should be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Webster's Bible Translation
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Weymouth New Testament
who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth.

World English Bible
who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.

Young's Literal Translation
who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

(thank you bible.cc)

immediately below that the notes say:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Who will have all men to be saved - That is, it is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires. The word "will" cannot be taken here in the absolute sense, denoting a decree like that by which he willed the creation of the world, for then it would certainly be done. But the word is often used to denote a desire, wish, or what is in accordance with the nature of anyone. Thus it may be said of God that he "wills" that his creatures may be happy - because it is in accordance with his nature, and because he has made abundant provision for their happiness - though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to make them happy.


Hmmmmmmm sounds like we had to water down God a bit.

[reFORMer]

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Who will have all men to be saved - That is, it is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires. The word "will" cannot be taken here in the absolute sense, denoting a decree like that by which he willed the creation of the world, for then it would certainly be done. But the word is often used to denote a desire, wish, or what is in accordance with the nature of anyone. Thus it may be said of God that he "wills" that his creatures may be happy - because it is in accordance with his nature, and because he has made abundant provision for their happiness - though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to make them happy.

If God exerts his absolute power to make His creatures happy it would distract Him from His fire and brimstone stove where we're the meaty morsels in the stew.  We just can't have a double-minded God, now can we?

[ded2daworld]

This is the argument of free will. The Bible is clear that it is God's will that all be saved. Free will says that man has the ability to thwart God's will. In other words, what man wants supercedes or takes precedence over what God wants.

God: I want all of my children to love each other and play nice now
Children: We want to do what we want and you can't stop us.
God: You're right my children, I'm helpless - but I will threaten you with torment for all eternity if you don't "play nice"

This reminds me of when my freinds had a mostly absent father and couldn't care less what their mother said because she had no power or authority over them. "Just wait till your(the) Father gets home(returns) and then you'll be punished.
That line kept them in line just a little - same as mother church threats of you'll be in big trouble when Christ returns.

REformer - God being distracted :laugh:

[VineBranch]

If God exerts his absolute power to make His creatures happy it would distract Him from His fire and brimstone stove where we're the meaty morsels in the stew.  We just can't have a double-minded God, now can we?

I am so glad I ate before I read this.  May I just say ... eeewww, and a yuck for good measure.

[VineBranch]

This is the argument of free will. The Bible is clear that it is God's will that all be saved. Free will says that man has the ability to thwart God's will. In other words, what man wants supercedes or takes precedence over what God wants.

God: I want all of my children to love each other and play nice now
Children: We want to do what we want and you can't stop us.
God: You're right my children, I'm helpless - but I will threaten you with torment for all eternity if you don't "play nice"

This reminds me of when my freinds had a mostly absent father and couldn't care less what their mother said because she had no power or authority over them. "Just wait till your(the) Father gets home(returns) and then you'll be punished.
That line kept them in line just a little - same as mother church threats of you'll be in big trouble when Christ returns.

REformer - God being distracted :laugh:

IMO that's actually quiet profound ded.

God doesn't have the ability to bring about His will because His human creations have said they won't let him.
Then the children, who have all the power, just go about their selfish way.
So, a weak, impotent, god, in a fit of petulent jealously, tortures them forever.  I never saw it that way. Hell as a creation of jealousy.

Thank you.

I was also just thinking ... if we have total free-will, couldn't we just will ourselves out of hell?  If we did that we could take over Heaven.  If our will actually supercedes God's we could rule Heaven ... and ... and ... and ... wait didn't someone try that already?

[micah7:9]

No. :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

It would seem to put a kink in the armor of the ET people that say, man chooses to go to hell, God never sends anyone there. If man "chooses" to go to hell, then he has a choice NOT to go to hell.

[VineBranch]

Exactly.  So, if there is anyone in hell, who doesn't want to be there, we really need to rethink, or at least re-define hell and why you go there.  I suspect, like a Rubick's Cube, once one thing is changed, other things will as well.

[Lazarus Short]

Like so:



[attachment deleted by admin]

[eaglesway]

This is the argument of free will. The Bible is clear that it is God's will that all be saved. Free will says that man has the ability to thwart God's will. In other words, what man wants supercedes or takes precedence over what God wants.

God: I want all of my children to love each other and play nice now
Children: We want to do what we want and you can't stop us.
God: You're right my children, I'm helpless - but I will threaten you with torment for all eternity if you don't "play nice"

This reminds me of when my freinds had a mostly absent father and couldn't care less what their mother said because she had no power or authority over them. "Just wait till your(the) Father gets home(returns) and then you'll be punished.
That line kept them in line just a little - same as mother church threats of you'll be in big trouble when Christ returns.

REformer - God being distracted :laugh:

That is not the doctrine of free will.

The true doctrine of free will is that God gives man the freedom to do good or ill in a learning process that eventually leads to every being choosing the light.

The doctrine you are calling "free will" is actually a doctrine that should be called the doctrine of "man's will is greater than God's will, or perhaps, "man can endure in evildoing longer than God can endure conquering evil with good".

IMO the two views are not the same.

For freedom Christ as set you free.

[micah7:9]

The "doctrine" of free will is man's invention because man does not/will not except how the Lord works. imo. As long as this "doctrine" of free will is even examined as a doctrine from the word of God there will be confusion, and we know where that comes from. The doctrine of free will, trinity, a hell of eternal torment, and such are all man's imagined ideas, man's thoughts and reason to offer a balm to man's natural questions he can't answer. Either the Creator God, the Lord, is
sovereign or He is not, should one chose He is not, then all one can accept is man has a will that may usurp I AM I AM. Yes, let it be registered as an opinion. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Yes, and let your opinion about that opinion also be registered thus :o)

[micah7:9]

Right thankful to.

[eaglesway]

HaHa :Peace2:

[ded2daworld]

EW said, "The true doctrine of free will is that God gives man the freedom to do good or ill in a learning process that eventually leads to every being choosing the light."

I see that not as the doctrine of free will but as the doctrine of freedom from sin. Before Christ, man has no choice but to sin, after Christ, man is able to choose not to sin.

In other words, if no man can free will choose to never sin again, where is free will?

[VineBranch]

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 8:38-39)

If will/free-will/man's-will/you uncle Will, cannot separate us from the love of God, then even if it exists, and becomes the focus of all our thoughts through out every discussion, it really has no power:  especially no power over God.

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: