Hell and Heaven?

[micah7:9]

UR, as it is called, has shown to anyone who would be honest to themselves, that the word "hell" should not have been used in the Bible. And that the hell that is offered in most of theology and denominations, is the dictionary's meaning, which is representative of what most theology and denominations credit it to mean, a place of eternal torment. And the Truth is that UR is correct.
Now, here is my thought or question.
Has not theology and denominations done the same with the word "heaven"? 

From what I have gleaned the original manuscripts(OT) read "heavens" not heaven.
The word heaven in Strong's and Thayer and BDB ( the basic meaning.)
Heaven..OT  H8064 shâmayim  shâmeh  from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky.
BDB.. 1) heaven, heavens, sky 1a) visible heavens, sky
Heaven..NT   G3772  ouranos   (through the idea of elevation); the sky.
Thayer...1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it.

My question is, has not man's imagination invented what theology and denominations reckon "heaven" to be just as man's imagination invented what theology and denominations reckoned the  hell of ET to be?

What I understand is that Christians believe, that when one dies, they either go to the hell they have been taught about, or they go to the heaven they have been taught about.

Is heaven a geographical place?

:HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

Our source, the Bible, says precious little about heaven.  Jesus was only willing or able to talk about the "Kingdom of Heaven" in parables/analogies.  The final scenes of the Revelation show a New Earth with a New Jerusalem, which has come down from Heaven.  It does look like the Kingdom, for humans, is going to be here, just as the JW's have been saying.  Eternity in Heaven or in the New Earth?  I'm happy with either outcome.  :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

I must at this point agree. :cloud9: I was just wondering why or how all, what I will call(imo) fantasy's about "heaven" got started in theology and denominational teachings? It seems that Christian teaching of heaven falls into Paul's
1Ti 1:4  nor to give heed to fables and endless genealogies, that cause questions rather than the building up of God that is in faith: --
1Ti 4:6  These things placing before the brethren, thou shalt be a good ministrant of Jesus Christ, being nourished by the words of the faith, and of the good teaching, which thou didst follow after,
1Ti 4:7  and the profane and old women's fables reject thou, and exercise thyself unto piety,
2Ti 4:3  for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing,
2Ti 4:4  and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.
Tit 1:13  this testimony is true; for which cause convict them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
Tit 1:14  not giving heed to Jewish fables and commands of men, turning themselves away from the truth;

This of course is just my thoughtful opinion.

[misszoolander]

It's strange...

When I believed in ET I use to ponder over heaven. I use to imagine the cliche "Streets of gold" angels etc.
However when I was told that for eternity we would be worshiping God I actually thought "How boring!"

I am quite the opposite now, streets of Gold seems boring compared to being in the presence of the creator of the universe.

I realized that when I believed ET, I idolized heaven over the creator, It's easy to do when you have a carrot hanging over your face, placed there by your Pastor.

Whatever the kingdom of God brings, I know as long as I am in the presence of God I will be in perfect joy, forever.

[eaglesway]

When I read about the "veil in the heavens" being rolled back like a scroll, and of "a new and living way through the veil into the holy of holies "in heaven", or "I am the bread of life coming down out of heaven" or an inheritance "reserved for you in heaven" or seated with Christ "in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus" it makes me want to "set my affections on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God".

I think heaven could be a state of being that will swallow evry other state of being, being in God, the all in all, and the whole creation released into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things

http://youtu.be/MSGzbQSuiN8

[micah7:9]

Where do I find this "veil of the heavens"? I think, imo your speak keeps the very encouragement I question, in the very perspective of how heaven is offered and perceived in the theological christian world of denominations.

"Our source, the Bible, says precious little about heaven.  Jesus was only willing or able to talk about the "Kingdom of Heaven" in parables/analogies." (Laz)
Laz stated it quite well, but it seems as I said above (imo) your speak furthers the fable that is offered by theology. Preaching and teaching sound doctrine, I believe is a sound first step.

I asked in my post, "Is heaven a geographical place?" My answer is no it is not.
Yet the Christian doctrine offers it as "sound doctrine." Why?

[eaglesway]

Your answer is just your statement with no details lol...... I might even agree with it if you ever give it a little more definition.

My answer is, heaven is not a place, it is a state of being that will eventually be everyplace.

The veil is His flesh, it was rent and heaven poured through. Eat of His flesh, enter heaven- wherever you may be.

[micah7:9]

Your answer is just your statement with no details lol...... I might even agree with it if you ever give it a little more definition.

My answer is, heaven is not a place, it is a state of being that will eventually be everyplace.

The veil is His flesh, it was rent and heaven poured through. Eat of His flesh, enter heaven- wherever you may be.

Just lead me to the scriptures where the details are, thank you.

" eventually "? Jesus was sure that it was already, or what did He mean when He said, Luk 17:20  And having been questioned by the Pharisees, when the reign of God doth come, he answered them, and said, `The reign of God doth not come with observation;
Luk 17:21  nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

So why didn't you just say the veil is the flesh, rather than  "veil of the heavens"? :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

Surrender - repenting. We were wrong-God is right. Giving up doing things "out way"
Submission - Agreeing to obey God which He prefers over sacrifice. Making God your authority - your king.
Subjection - Like submission, you are now a subject of the King and are available for whatever purpose he desires for your life.
                    With a king, (God) and subjects (believers) we have a kingdom. A kingdom that is within us because the king is   
                    within us.

[Lazarus Short]

Surrender - repenting. We were wrong-God is right. Giving up doing things "out way"
Submission - Agreeing to obey God which He prefers over sacrifice. Making God your authority - your king.
Subjection - Like submission, you are now a subject of the King and are available for whatever purpose he desires for your life.
                    With a king, (God) and subjects (believers) we have a kingdom. A kingdom that is within us because the king is   
                    within us.

A kingdom consists of four things, not two:

a King
subjects
a body of Law
a piece of real estate

[micah7:9]

I "think" the Kingdom or Reign of God or Heaven is only [2] A Body and Spirit.
We are many members but ONE body and that ONE BODY is submissive to ONE SPIRIT.
Thus we have PEACE G1515  (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

PS. My opinion. :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

We are no longer under the law. When we love, we fulfill all the requirements of the law.
The "real estate" is our body  - owned by Jesus, bought with his shed blood.

[Lazarus Short]

We are no longer under the law. When we love, we fulfill all the requirements of the law.
The "real estate" is our body  - owned by Jesus, bought with his shed blood.

OK, so now it's like so:

King
Subjects
Love
our Bodies

[ded2daworld]

Me saying it doesn't "make it so" I'm not a starship captain :laughing7:

[Lazarus Short]

Me saying it doesn't "make it so" I'm not a starship captain :laughing7:

I just revised my original list.  If love fulfills all the requirement of the Law, we can substitute.  If the real estate is our bodies, and I don't recall Jesus ever saying the Kingdom was geographical, we can substitute there too.  Further, since the subjects live in their bodies, we can settle on King, Love and Subjects.

Engage!

[eaglesway]

I "think" the Kingdom or Reign of God or Heaven is only [2] A Body and Spirit.
We are many members but ONE body and that ONE BODY is submissive to ONE SPIRIT.
Thus we have PEACE G1515  (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

PS. My opinion. :dsunny:

Acts 4:32
Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common

[marie glen]

Jesus said the kingdom is within us.. but did He say it's onLy within us? "The lion will eat straw like the ox. The bear will graze with the cow" - Isaiah 11:7. Will the lion and the bear grazing be within us? Yet, Jesus clearly showed that mankind taking up arms to make this present life and world 'Christian' is not the plan. The kingdom upon earth is presently within those who believe.

We know the Word tells us we are His by the "Spirit in our heart which cries Abba! (DaDa) Father!" This, we're told is the "seal of God upon our hearts proving we are His". God's Spirit is in us, even now, before the consummation of man's ages and empires, and the subduing of the earth and all mankind back into perfection and paradise ("aLL things gathered into Jesus") when the very Throne of God will "come down to the earth" and God will now live with and "Tabernacle" with mankind, and the River of the Water of Life will flow out from the Throne and water the whole earth, and there shall no longer be any more sea. Why would we want to take away from the awesome beauty and glory of that full consummation by thinking all this is allegory and the Kingdom of God is a sort of floaty place after all? If we claim one thing as allegory, how much of the word is allegory? Jesus coming? Jesus on the cross? Resurrection of Jesus? Why should the world or person of the world believe those are literal but the rest of the Word isn't? And those searching for truth and, or God in their heart will turn away, because His sheep will not listen to the the voice of a stranger (it just won't ring true to them).. A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump. And in this case, robs the gospel (and even UR) of its saving POWER.

[ded2daworld]

 :thumbsup: :Peace2: :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Jesus said the kingdom is within us.. but did He say it's onLy within us? "The lion will eat straw like the ox. The bear will graze with the cow" - Isaiah 11:7. Will the lion and the bear grazing be within us? Yet, Jesus clearly showed that mankind taking up arms to make this present life and world 'Christian' is not the plan. The kingdom upon earth is presently within those who believe.

We know the Word tells us we are His by the "Spirit in our heart which cries Abba! (DaDa) Father!" This, we're told is the "seal of God upon our hearts proving we are His". God's Spirit is in us, even now, before the consummation of man's ages and empires, and the subduing of the earth and all mankind back into perfection and paradise ("aLL things gathered into Jesus") when the very Throne of God will "come down to the earth" and God will now live with and "Tabernacle" with mankind, and the River of the Water of Life will flow out from the Throne and water the whole earth, and there shall no longer be any more sea. Why would we want to take away from the awesome beauty and glory of that full consummation by thinking all this is allegory and the Kingdom of God is a sort of floaty place after all? If we claim one thing as allegory, how much of the word is allegory? Jesus coming? Jesus on the cross? Resurrection of Jesus? Why should the world or person of the world believe those are literal but the rest of the Word isn't? And those searching for truth and, or God in their heart will turn away, because His sheep will not listen to the the voice of a stranger (it just won't ring true to them).. A little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump. And in this case, robs the gospel (and even UR) of its saving POWER.

Please help me here.
.." and all mankind back into perfection and paradise..." Where does it say we are going back? (Heb.6:1)
The kingdom or reign of God is not a "floaty" place at all.
Jesus spoke in parables, Mat_13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
And imo, there is much allegory in the Word; still be it allegory, or parable, or literal it is all spiritual, Jesus said,
Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If we can admit it our total concept of what/where heaven is made of our imagination compared to what is. Once the "hell" word was revealed and understood, all the imagination of the old hell left.
Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
For me, imo, we are pretty much out of heaven. Take away all the info about what was told man from religion and theological myths and fables and unless some splicing is done, there is no heaven or hell when one expires. As Bro. Eby pointed out a long time ago, the word heaven is not even found in John 14. My whole and entire concept of what heaven used to mean is gone. I find more detail as to where and what heaven will be like in songs than reading it in the Bible.
I don't know about anybody else, but I have grown very weary at all tales I was told.
Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Right here in these verses a great deal of people believe that there is really a mansion or cabin being built. No offence is intended with my words. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

Micah, I grew up with all the myths about Heaven that you did - but then, we all did.  When I really became a Christian, and read my Bible seriously, I noticed that very little was said anywhere in its pages about Heaven - where it was, what it was like, etc.  Even Jesus talked about the Kingdom of Heaven in a roundabout way.  If we subscribe to the theme of reconciliation and restoration, we end up with the same vision as the JW's - people living happily in the New Earth.  I concluded that "Heaven" is God's digs, and He dwells in inapproachable fire.  In our glorified bodies, we will have access, maybe, to that place, if it is even a place as we now understand "place," but I long ago concluded that the New Earth will be our home for a LONG time to come...

[micah7:9]

Micah, I grew up with all the myths about Heaven that you did - but then, we all did.  When I really became a Christian, and read my Bible seriously, I noticed that very little was said anywhere in its pages about Heaven - where it was, what it was like, etc.  Even Jesus talked about the Kingdom of Heaven in a roundabout way.  If we subscribe to the theme of reconciliation and restoration, we end up with the same vision as the JW's - people living happily in the New Earth.  I concluded that "Heaven" is God's digs, and He dwells in inapproachable fire.  In our glorified bodies, we will have access, maybe, to that place, if it is even a place as we now understand "place," but I long ago concluded that the New Earth will be our home for a LONG time to come...

I like that. Just want to say the only JW's I ever knew came to my door and they left, I really know nothing of there doctrine and have no desire to. They may have some truths and that maybe about heaven, don't know. :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

I relent, hell ain't and heaven is......got it. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

I relent, hell ain't and heaven is......got it. :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

...so there's no need to worry.

[micah7:9]

Wer'nt never a worried :banana:

[eaglesway]

Hell? Never was no hell.