See eternal hell crumble before your eyes/ears

[VineBranch]

Precisely. And that is why I posted what I did.

No offense but I think you kinda missed the point.

[eaglesway]

Why are we all so pointy?  :swordfight:

[VineBranch]

Why are we all so pointy?  :swordfight:

So we shouldn't be dull.    :cheerleader:

[eaglesway]

We ought to be sharp, without slicing one another up :o)

[VineBranch]

We ought to be sharp, without slicing one another up :o)

That's why we are pointy and not edgy.

[eaglesway]

Said the pirate as he pressed the miserable captive closer to the edge, continally repeating, "Har Har Har, Get my point? Har Har Har! Over the edge Matey!

[micah7:9]

The serpent told her it would make her wise and she looked at it and it probably looked as good as all the other fruit in the garden. - much like we are encouraged to try "a new taste sensation!"

I get taste, but Eve somehow believed that the tree would make her wise.  Just because Satan said so she believed it.  God says x and she has doubts, Satan says y and she believes to the exclusion of believing God.  Did Eve know what wisdom was, or did she just do it because it was something new and God was old?

I guess what I'm saying is that I see no difference between Eve before the fall and Eve after the fall.  So, human has always been human.  I don't think humans humans changed because of the fall, I think we have been consistant throughout, and that we just fall for what is said to be good by those who would lead us.  I don't think the fall changed us, it just put us further away from God:  but we are still who we have always been.  So, I'm not sure any of us can really lead any of us.  Eve, like any of us, can justify whatever needs to be justified.

" I don't think the fall changed us, it just put us further away from God: ...."

I believe it actually put us closer to God..."Behold, the man is become as one of us..."

[VineBranch]

" I don't think the fall changed us, it just put us further away from God: ...."

I believe it actually put us closer to God..."Behold, the man is become as one of us..."

Seriously?  You think Adam was closer to God after the fall?  Really?

[misszoolander]

I think because of the fall, we will become closer to God, if that makes the sense, I think I know where Micah is coming from.

Adam was destined to fall, that was Gods plan. Gods ultimate will is for him to be all in all, not in a robotic way, in a sense of real love. God used sin as a means for us to understand and choose good over evil, when you consider the bleakness of sin and compare it to a perfect Holy God we will of course choose him, not because we have too, but because we want too and this glorifies God. My  :2c:

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: Yes same page, Glory to the King! :HeartThrob:

[VineBranch]

I think because of the fall, we will become closer to God, if that makes the sense, I think I know where Micah is coming from.

Micah used the word in the past tense, you use it in the future tense and yet you are saying the same thing.  Okay!!??

[misszoolander]

Please be patient with us Brother,

I guess how you understand what we mean by "closer" depends if you believe Adam was born perfect at the start.

Every step we take in this life brings us closer to Gods ultimate will, That God will be ALL IN ALL. - that is the closest you can get to God.

Will Gods end result with his creation be better then Adam before the fall? I believe so. Adam was "very good" before, we all however were not made to be "very good" we were made to become perfect, like our Heavenly Father is perfect.

[VineBranch]

Please be patient with us Brother,

I guess how you understand what we mean by "closer" depends if you believe Adam was born perfect at the start.

Every step we take in this life brings us closer to Gods ultimate will, That God will be ALL IN ALL. - that is the closest you can get to God.

Will Gods end result with his creation be better then Adam before the fall? I believe so. Adam was "very good" before, we all however were not made to be "very good" we were made to become perfect, like our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Fair Call!!

The Greek word perfect merely means complete.  Do I believe Adam was born complete?  I think Adam was born completely Adam.

"Every step we take in this life brings us closer to Gods ultimate will, That God will be ALL IN ALL. - that is the closest you can get to God."
So, just to make sure I have it:  the closest we can get to God, is to get to His ultimate will?  We can't actually get to God Himself in this life?

"Adam was 'very good' before, we all however were not made to be "very good" we were made to become perfect, like our Heavenly Father is perfect."

therefore:
Adam is not very good anymore?
Perfect is not very good?

Personally, I don't think Adam fell from perfection, I think he fell from grace.  He was as much Adam after the fall as He was before.

You are therefore, using becoming close to God, as becoming more like God, not getting closer (as in drawing nigh) to Him?

[misszoolander]

"So, just to make sure I have it:  the closest we can get to God, is to get to His ultimate will?  We can't actually get to God Himself in this life?"

No, IMO not to get to his Ultimate will, to fulfill his ultimate will, which is to be perfect/complete, and to sin no more, and not be capable of sinning full stop. We can "get to (?)" God in this life, however we can not fulfill his ultimate will to be perfect/complete in this life, because he is yet not all in all hence we are not complete and in this life we are still capable of sinning.

"therefore:
Adam is not very good anymore?
Perfect is not very good?"

Adam is merely very good, not perfect/complete until God becomes all in all. There is a difference isn't there?

"Personally, I don't think Adam fell from perfection, I think he fell from grace.  He was as much Adam after the fall as He was before.

You are therefore, using becoming close to God, as becoming more like God, not getting closer (as in drawing nigh) to Him?"

I am using Adam as an example of mankind as a whole. It is not a matter of "becoming close to God, as becoming more like God" It's a matter of his ultimate will, for us to be complete, as he is complete, we will be complete once we all are one in God.

And I actually agree on the last part of Adam, Adam never fell from perfection, as he was not made perfect/complete. IMO"

EDIT: Please note, this is my opinion, which of course can be wrong, however I don't mind to be corrected  :Peace2:

[VineBranch]

No, IMO not to get to his Ultimate will, to fulfill his ultimate will, which is to be perfect/complete, and to sin no more, and not be capable of sinning full stop. We can "get to (?)" God in this life, however we can not fulfill his ultimate will to be perfect/complete in this life, because he is yet not all in all hence we are not complete and in this life we are still capable of sinning.

Thank you, that makes a lot to sense to me.  I appreciate you giving so much of your time ... sorry to be so slow.

[misszoolander]

Not a problem VB  :friendstu:

[Illuin]

And I actually agree on the last part of Adam, Adam never fell from perfection, as he was not made perfect/complete. IMO"

EDIT: Please note, this is my opinion, which of course can be wrong, however I don't mind to be corrected  :Peace2:

I agree. 

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"


IMO, God did not make (past tense) man in His image, but God IS MAKING man in His image. The "first man Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:45) is simply the first step in that creation process of "creating man... in His image."


The word "make" - the grammar in Genesis 1:26 is in the 'imperfect tense.', which denotes an action in time past, then present, but 'not finished'.

Check it out:

Genesis 1:26 "And God430 said559 [8799], Let us make6213 [8799] man120 in our image6754, after our likeness1823"

(The bracketed number [8799] stands for the 'imperfect tense.')


Paul confirms this:

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29 - see below] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual. The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord FROM HEAVEN. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

And God also did predestinate man TO BE conformed to the image of His Son:

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the IMAGE of his Son [the finished product], that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."


The first man Adam is but the first step to "the image of the heavenly" which will indeed be "conformed to the image of His Son" (truly "in the image of God"). God is 'making' (in the process of making) mankind into His image, and the first part of that process is, by design, "marred in the hand of The Potter":

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


Adam was intended to be THE FIGURE of Him that was to come:

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is THE FIGURE of him that was to come."

In other words:

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay [the first man Adam] was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again ANOTHER VESSEL [the LAST ADAM], as seemed good to the potter to make it."


"He makes it another vessel."  Paul speaks of this "NEW MAN" [another vessel]:

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the IMAGE of him that created him."



It is the new man (vessel) who being made into "the LAST Adam... after the IMAGE OF HIM that created him", who began as a "marred vessel" in the "FIRST MAN Adam," who was "subject to vanity, not WILLINGLY [not by his own will], but BY REASON OF HIM":


Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

:2c:

[Lazarus Short]

 :iagree:

Amazing, just amazing. :dsunny:

[misszoolander]

And I actually agree on the last part of Adam, Adam never fell from perfection, as he was not made perfect/complete. IMO"

EDIT: Please note, this is my opinion, which of course can be wrong, however I don't mind to be corrected  :Peace2:

I agree. 

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"


IMO, God did not make (past tense) man in His image, but God IS MAKING man in His image. The "first man Adam" (1 Corinthians 15:45) is simply the first step in that creation process of "creating man... in His image."


The word "make" - the grammar in Genesis 1:26 is in the 'imperfect tense.', which denotes an action in time past, then present, but 'not finished'.

Check it out:

Genesis 1:26 "And God430 said559 [8799], Let us make6213 [8799] man120 in our image6754, after our likeness1823"

(The bracketed number [8799] stands for the 'imperfect tense.')


Paul confirms this:

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that WAS NOT FIRST which is spiritual ["conformed to the image of His Son", Romans 8:29 - see below] , but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual. The FIRST MAN IS OF THE EARTH, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord FROM HEAVEN. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ["the first man Adam"] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

And God also did predestinate man TO BE conformed to the image of His Son:

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the IMAGE of his Son [the finished product], that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."


The first man Adam is but the first step to "the image of the heavenly" which will indeed be "conformed to the image of His Son" (truly "in the image of God"). God is 'making' (in the process of making) mankind into His image, and the first part of that process is, by design, "marred in the hand of The Potter":

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."


Adam was intended to be THE FIGURE of Him that was to come:

Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is THE FIGURE of him that was to come." In other words:

Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay [the first man Adam] was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again ANOTHER VESSEL [the LAST ADAM], as seemed good to the potter to make it."


"He makes it another vessel."  Paul speaks of this "NEW MAN [VESSEL]":

Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the IMAGE of him that created him."


It is the new man (vessel) who being made into "the LAST Adam... after the IMAGE OF HIM that created him", who began as a "marred vessel" in the "FIRST MAN Adam," who was "subject to vanity, not WILLINGLY [not by his own will], but BY REASON OF HIM":

Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope."

:2c:

thankyou!  :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

 :dsunny: :HeartThrob:It's like reading Willie H!

[VineBranch]

The word "make" - the grammar in Genesis 1:26 is in the 'imperfect tense.', which denotes an action in time past, then present, but 'not finished'.

Okay, you have to stop this!!! There is no tense in The Old Testament (I have spent years trying to come to terms with that), time is gleaned from context (and vav's).  You can't impose context and claim you're right.  One of the reasons prophecy is so hard in The Old Testament is because the whole notion of time as we see it, in our Greek line of thought, just doesn't exist in Hebrew,

[eaglesway]

Let's just say that with a smile and an IMO and, "We be good din"  :laughing7:

[VineBranch]

Let's just say that with a smile and an IMO and, "We be good din"  :laughing7:

I apologize.  It was not my objective to be combative.