See eternal hell crumble before your eyes/ears

[sheila]

  oh...you mean..the 'blockhead" syndrome!!

[Lazarus Short]

Um...as in Peanuts:  "You blockhead!"?  :laughing7:

[VineBranch]

What was done to Eve is getting her to question the word of God.
SERPENT: "Did God REALLY say..."

I used this phrasing as an example to make a point once.  Maybe this is still valid.

I have never heard the phrase  "Did he/she/you really ..." actually used to elicit information. It has always been used to express doubt, or disapproval, or even solidarity.  It serves the function of asking you to repeat what you said, under scrutiny. Notice that even if you repeat exactly what you just said, word for word, your voice is less sure, or you become defensive, or you shout as a way of hiding your own doubt, the creation of which is the end result of that phrasing.  This wording serves to make you loose approval.  I also think that is why Eve put the words about touching in her answer.  She was unsure of her response so she needed to flesh it out, to validate what she said.

All she had to do was check with God, and let Him be her answer.

[eaglesway]

  oh...you mean..the 'blockhead" syndrome!!

What are you trying to say?

[eaglesway]

 :Chinscratch: :LH:

[jabcat]

My neck is Stone Hinge.

[VineBranch]

My neck is Stone Hinge.

:LH:

[jabcat]

My neck is Stone Hinge.

:LH:

:wink3:

[Illuin]

I wonder, when we consider this concept of original sin, if we have a"chicken or the egg" thing going on because someone could say Eve sinned before she ate, as she "saw that it was good to make one wise" and lusted after that wisdom.

I'm totally convinced the sin happened long before the act.  The covet occurs before the theft, the lust before the deed.  I think you are right in this case.  Sin takes a lot of groundwork.  I also believe that changing your mind (or repenting) is what Paul had in mind when he said "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God"(Romans 12:2 ). I think in a lot of cases, the act is merely the confirmation that the sin has already occurred.

Right, I agree. Eve, and Adam with her, committed all these sins before she ever touched the tree.

• 1 John 2:16  "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

Eve was guilty of "all that is in the world" (1 John above) BEFORE she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

• Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman SAW that the tree was good for food [The lust of the flesh], and that it was pleasant to the eyes [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be desired to make one wise [The pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

They did so because:

• Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly [not by their own will], but by reason of him [God], who hath subjected the same in hope."

And:

• Jeremiah 18:4 "And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it."

When they ate the fruit of the tree of 'the knowledge of good and evil', it did not cause them to BECOME NAKED, it only caused them to "REALIZE they were already NAKED to begin with."  The tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" was a shadow of The Law:

• Romans 7:7 "........I would not have come TO KNOW sin [know I was naked] except through the Law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

(i.e. - "I would not have come TO KNOW (to the KNOWLEDGE OF) sin (good and evil), except through the Law (the Tree)."

[shawn]

yeah, MIcah - like I said, it was as if he had read the bible pnce many years ago and then hadn't thought much about it since.
Some pastors know a lot more "pop" psychology than they know scripture and preach like a psychologist would to "help" his congregation. KInda like these vhurches that sponsored famous Psychologist Dwayne Dyer author of "Your Erroneous Zones"
he preaches what ET'ers accuse us of believing - everyone gets to heaven scot free-no punishment-no correction- not even a reprimand and God sort of apologising to us for not making everything crystal clear.  :doh: Oy Vey :laugh:

Ya know, I have heard that kind of thing for years...the pastor sounds like a psychologist etc.  but, I have yet to hear examples.  What specifically sounds like a psychologist?  And what is so bad about that?  My observation is this, when studying what makes humans happy, healthy and sane...you see Biblical principles.  When you see what makes people dysfunctional, insane, unhappy and irrational you see Biblical values being violated.  The study of the human mind and faith go together quite well.

It's sort of like Faith and science...many people act like they are enemies when in fact they are not...just different ways of searching for truth.  My faith in God has been enhanced by my study of science.  My study of psychology has also strengthened my faith, not weakened it. 

And I know your point is more along the lines of pastors who are more concerned about the latest psychology fad than Scripture...just a good opportunity for me to soap box a bit.  :winkgrin:

[ded2daworld]

IMO. When Psychology does testing and gets results, that fine. But when they start to philosophize and conjecture about what the results mean, then I believe they are overstepping the science part of it and bringing in their own problems and agenda. Like it's common knowledge that sigmund Freud really had a sex problem so to him all problems were related to sex. It also seems to me from people I have known, that the more emotional problems a college student has, the more likely they are to major (or at least take many classes in Psychology. Psychology avoids ever mentioning the root problem, SIN.
I also agree with you about science. WHen science does it's testable, repeatable, observable experimtents, it's fantastic. When they start conjecturing about what happened in the unreapeatable, untestable, unobservable past while ignoring the testimony of the only eye witness, well, there is a problem. Scientist have eliminated the possibility of the supernatural and thus, the root cause of all. :2c:

[eaglesway]

IMO. When Psychology does testing and gets results, that fine. But when they start to philosophize and conjecture about what the results mean, then I believe they are overstepping the science part of it and bringing in their own problems and agenda. Like it's common knowledge that sigmund Freud really had a sex problem so to him all problems were related to sex. It also seems to me from people I have known, that the more emotional problems a college student has, the more likely they are to major (or at least take many classes in Psychology. Psychology avoids ever mentioning the root problem, SIN.
I also agree with you about science. WHen science does it's testable, repeatable, observable experimtents, it's fantastic. When they start conjecturing about what happened in the unreapeatable, untestable, unobservable past while ignoring the testimony of the only eye witness, well, there is a problem. Scientist have eliminated the possibility of the supernatural and thus, the root cause of all. :2c:

:goodpost: :iagree:

[Illuin]

IMO. When Psychology does testing and gets results, that fine. But when they start to philosophize and conjecture about what the results mean, then I believe they are overstepping the science part of it and bringing in their own problems and agenda. Like it's common knowledge that sigmund Freud really had a sex problem so to him all problems were related to sex. It also seems to me from people I have known, that the more emotional problems a college student has, the more likely they are to major (or at least take many classes in Psychology. Psychology avoids ever mentioning the root problem, SIN.
I also agree with you about science. WHen science does it's testable, repeatable, observable experimtents, it's fantastic. When they start conjecturing about what happened in the unreapeatable, untestable, unobservable past while ignoring the testimony of the only eye witness, well, there is a problem. Scientist have eliminated the possibility of the supernatural and thus, the root cause of all. :2c:

Yep. Science IS the answer and the cause in the minds of my colleagues. But in truth, science only analyzes and attempts to explain what God has already made. Take Newton's Laws of Motion & Universal Gravitation that he derived in the 17th century AD.  Newton's Laws have ALWAYS existed, they are the laws that God constructed to govern His physical universe. But Isaac Newton simply analyzed and wrote down motions and properties that were ALREADY there for millennia. They are God's Laws, not Newton's Laws. Newton simply drew 'a map' or 'a model' of the terrain that was there all along.

By the way, Isaac Newton, the greatest scientist of all time, and arguably the most intelligent by far, was a Universalist, with strong faith, and a deep, thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. This is an important fact today's arrogant, know-it-all, 'wanna-be-Newton' scientists should reflect on - as well as religionists who subscribe to eternal torment. You think James Kennedy with his 6 degrees, or John Calvin, who had an infidel burned to death on slow burning wood  :doh:, had anything on Isaac Newton in the IQ department? :pointlaugh: YEAH, RIGHT!! Who's da man?!  :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

I'm impressed! Good post(s). :dsunny:

[ded2daworld]

Illuin - your post mentioning cause and answer reminded me of a quote from Homer Simpson:

   "Ahh Beer... The cause of - and the answer to - all of our problems.

[Illuin]

Illuin - your post mentioning cause and answer reminded me of a quote from Homer Simpson:

   "Ahh Beer... The cause of - and the answer to - all of our problems.

:laughhand: There are indeed a few small nuggets of hidden wisdom in the Homie at times.

[VineBranch]

There is one thing I have never understood, perhaps you guys have a take on it.  How did Eve know the fruit would make her wise by simply looking at it?

[ded2daworld]

The serpent told her it would make her wise and she looked at it and it probably looked as good as all the other fruit in the garden. - much like we are encouraged to try "a new taste sensation!"

[Illuin]

There is one thing I have never understood, perhaps you guys have a take on it.  How did Eve know the fruit would make her wise by simply looking at it?

The answer to that question is another confirmation that Adam and Eve were "made subject to vanity and marred in the hand of the Potter." The "natural man" (and woman) is programmed having an innate appreciation for outward beauty. Scientific studies have proven that babies respond more favorably to attractive babysitters than they do less attractive babysitters. That is simply the norm for the corruptible, flesh and blood, dust of the ground nature of the Adamic man.

There were two trees in the Garden of Eden: the Tree of Life; and the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. Christ is the "Tree of Life." And what are we told of Christ:

• Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."

If that was true of Christ in the flesh, why would it not also be true of Christ as "the tree of life?"

In the middle of the garden of Eden, one tree is beautiful and full of beautiful fruit; a tree in which Eve was told by the serpent that it was good for food. The other tree seemingly has nothing special to offer, and even its fruit has "no form nor comeliness, or beauty that we should desire it (Him)."

Now what would and carnal "marred clay vessel... shapen in iniquity, and conceived in sin" do under such circumstances? The results were guaranteed, and that is why a sacrifice for sin had been "slain from the foundation of the world."

Nothing has changed. Even in the world of religion, people adore the glitz and glam of fast-food religion, they can't get enough of it. But the True Living Word of God has "no form nor comeliness, or beauty that we should desire Him."

[VineBranch]

The serpent told her it would make her wise and she looked at it and it probably looked as good as all the other fruit in the garden. - much like we are encouraged to try "a new taste sensation!"

I get taste, but Eve somehow believed that the tree would make her wise.  Just because Satan said so she believed it.  God says x and she has doubts, Satan says y and she believes to the exclusion of believing God.  Did Eve know what wisdom was, or did she just do it because it was something new and God was old?

I guess what I'm saying is that I see no difference between Eve before the fall and Eve after the fall.  So, human has always been human.  I don't think humans humans changed because of the fall, I think we have been consistant throughout, and that we just fall for what is said to be good by those who would lead us.  I don't think the fall changed us, it just put us further away from God:  but we are still who we have always been.  So, I'm not sure any of us can really lead any of us.  Eve, like any of us, can justify whatever needs to be justified.

[eaglesway]

Great line :o) "I am not sure any of us can really lead any of us".

I agree. We are supposed to be brothers and sisters encouraging one another. Exploring new realms together. Members of one another under one Head- Jesus.

[VineBranch]

If that was true of Christ in the flesh, why would it not also be true of Christ as "the tree of life?"

Because somewhere along the line we have to stop speculating, and relying on metaphor and grandiose narrative, and see what is actually said, and what that actually means.

[VineBranch]

Great line :o) "I am not sure any of us can really lead any of us".

I agree. We are supposed to be brothers and sisters encouraging one another. Exploring new realms together. Members of one another under one Head- Jesus.

Amen to that brother. :gimmefive:

[eaglesway]

"those who are led of the Spirit are the sons of God"

"Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"

I am convinced it is the Spirit overflowing around and through us that makes this thing called "Body" work.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
(Rom 12:1-6)

As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(1Pe 4:10-11)

Oh Lord, have mercy on us.

[Illuin]

If that was true of Christ in the flesh, why would it not also be true of Christ as "the tree of life?"

Because somewhere along the line we have to stop speculating, and relying on metaphor and grandiose narrative, and see what is actually said, and what that actually means.

Precisely. And that is why I posted what I did.