God's love is unconditional - or is it?

[ded2daworld]

I submit that "conditional love" is not love at all. Conditional love says, "I will love you IF" and then there's a list of conditions which must be met for the giver of love to retain and/or maintain "love" for the person that meets the conditions.
Since God IS love, I submit to you that God's love is unconditional. This is in contrast to the ET position of God's conditional love that maintains God only loves you IF 1.) You "Accept Christ" as savior before you die. 2.) pray and read your Bible 3.) Attend church 4.) Tithe 5.) Don't kill anyone.

Why do ET people see God's love as conditional? It's because their love is conditional and God is made in their image. There are a few ET preachers and congregations that feel like they are doing God's witness by telling anyone that isn't like them or doesn't believe as they do that they are going to burn and be tortured in hell forever. The Westboro Baptist preacher takes this position to the nth degree when they basically hate anyone that is not like them because they feel God hates anyone not like them and even some of them are secretly hated by God!
It is sad that "church people" will "sometimes "hate" a notorious sinner and then if they "accept" Christ before they die, this notorious sinner is elevated to "one of the brethren to be loved"

The UR position is that God's love is unconditional. ALL will ultimately be our brethren and are to be treated with love. Jesus summed up how our lives should be with a single sentence. "Whatever you do to/for them, the least of these, it's the same as if you had done it to/for me."

[sheila]

Amen Ded2 :iagree:   Praise God He has loved us all through this [ :eek:] good/evil exercize.And has/will

save us all from it's fruit of death!!!!

[Lazarus Short]

In the Book of Acts, we can see how the unconditional love of God and of the believers overcame the intense and long-standing hate between the Jews and the Greeks.  Amazing!  :friendstu:

[VineBranch]

I have become convinced over the years that there is actually no such thing as conditional love.  Either you love someone or you don't.  I've talked to people who will say something like "I fell out of love with them", or some other wording expressing the same thing.  When I ask them, it seems that what they are really saying is that the other person didn't change and become who they wanted them to be.  Or they found something they wanted more.

It seems to me that what we call conditional love is based on the wants and needs of the person offering the affection.  Love can't be about that.  Love is about the other, and totally about the other:  otherwise it isn't love.  God's love is totally about us.  There is nothing He needs from us.  Irrespective of what I do, I can't separate myself from Him or his love.  Love based on anything but the object of that love, in my mind can't honestly be called love.

[ded2daworld]

I agree VB. That was my point. "God is Love" somehow gets jumbled up with a psychotic, sadistic, fiend that would torture those that don't love him the way he wants to be loved in the ET world.

I know some say I'm blasphemous to say psychotic, sadistic, fiend and God in the same sentence, but that IS the God they(ET'ers) worship even though they try numerous ways to "excuse" that behaviour.
I know many that love and trust God by the blood shed on the cross to cover their sins, but they also close their eyes, compartmentalize, excuse, ignore, justify, etc. -  A God that is totally different than Jesus.

Even Jesus kind of mockingly said, "Even pagans "love" those that "love" them. - (AND he said it without "airquotes" around the word love.) :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

I agree VB. That was my point. "God is Love" somehow gets jumbled up with a psychotic, sadistic, fiend that would torture those that don't love him the way he wants to be loved in the ET world.

I know some say I'm blasphemous to say psychotic, sadistic, fiend and God in the same sentence, but that IS the God they(ET'ers) worship even though they try numerous ways to "excuse" that behaviour.
I know many that love and trust God by the blood shed on the cross to cover their sins, but they also close their eyes, compartmentalize, excuse, ignore, justify, etc. -  A God that is totally different than Jesus.

Even Jesus kind of mockingly said, "Even pagans "love" those that "love" them. - (AND he said it without "airquotes" around the word love.) :winkgrin:

Could I share where I've been brought to look at that currently?  (not just you bro. ded, but I've seen it often said, "that's the God they worship, they become like the God they worship, etc..", and your post "triggered me" to comment :). 

I'd suggest anyone who's been saved by grace and the blood of Calvary, worship the same God we do.  He's the same God, the same Holy Spirit draws them, the same grace saves them, the same Jesus died for them.  So I don't believe it's "an evil God they worship" - I just believe there's yet a veil that remains to where many just can't as yet see more of the total aspect of God, what more He really is than what we were taught - which as through a glass darkly, I believe that includes all of us to some extent.  So "the God" is not psychotic or evil, it's often a deficit in our perception and perspective - our view - the place where God has each of us in our walk.   It's kind of like someone who's extremely depressed, and another person who's well and in a good mood, looking at the same mountain.  The depressive only sees the clouds, the fog, the rocks that are gray and dreary and so hard to climb.  The well person sees the beautiful trees, the sun breaking through them, the mountain reaching up out of the clouds, and thinks how majestic is the view.  They see and understand it differently, but it's the same mountain.  So IMO, same God, but different views and understandings.   :2c:  Blessings.

[jabcat]

I have become convinced over the years that there is actually no such thing as conditional love.  Either you love someone or you don't. 

God's love is totally about us.  There is nothing He needs from us.  Irrespective of what I do, I can't separate myself from Him or his love.  Love based on anything but the object of that love, in my mind can't honestly be called love.

I agree VB. That was my point. "God is Love"

:thumbsup:    :thumbsup:

It was the sun (Son) breaking through for my raised-Baptist, ET wife when she really grasped universal reconciliation.  One day it really hit her - God does not just love, He IS love.  So whether we get it or not, with our limited views, when we see things that "don't look right" and we just don't understand;  ANYTHING God does is out of love, with the view of love, and with the end result of love.  He is love.

Blessings.

[eaglesway]

Sometimes we confuse

"I love you if"

with

"I love you but"

as in, "I love you but...... it may not always look like love to you". :o)

[VineBranch]

Please forgive me if this is irrelevant.

My wife left 24 years ago.  A little before Christmas last year a friend of mine asked if I still think about her.  I told him "every day".  He looked stunned.  He asked why.  I told him I still loved her as much today as I did the day we were married.  I'm afraid he became somewhat annoyed with me (I think in his own way he was trying to protect me).  He asked how I could love someone who did all those nasty things and then betrayed me and ran off with one of my friends.  I didn't have to think about the answer but I waited a few seconds before I answered.

I think the reason I hesitated was because the answer sounded cliche.  I told him my love for her didn't depend on what she did.  I don't think he understood, anyway he was a bit annoyed with me because I didn't hate her, so we moved the conversation along.  The point is, when it comes to love I think the whole thing is akin to a penguin (all black and white) either it's love, or it isn't.  If it isn't, you can paint it any colour you wish ... it just ain't what it ain't.

Love qualified is no love at all.

[eaglesway]

Does a parent who lets there child do anything  without consequence love them? Parental love is qualified by responsibilty. It is not "quantified" by a childs behavior, good or ill- but if it is not responsible and teaching accountability to the child it is no love at all. It may not look like love at all to the child at the time, but God, who is love, disciplines His children. In fact, enduring this discipline qualifies us as children.

"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
(Heb 12:4-11)

[shawn]

I agree VB. That was my point. "God is Love" somehow gets jumbled up with a psychotic, sadistic, fiend that would torture those that don't love him the way he wants to be loved in the ET world.

I know some say I'm blasphemous to say psychotic, sadistic, fiend and God in the same sentence, but that IS the God they(ET'ers) worship even though they try numerous ways to "excuse" that behaviour.
I know many that love and trust God by the blood shed on the cross to cover their sins, but they also close their eyes, compartmentalize, excuse, ignore, justify, etc. -  A God that is totally different than Jesus.

Even Jesus kind of mockingly said, "Even pagans "love" those that "love" them. - (AND he said it without "airquotes" around the word love.) :winkgrin:

Could I share where I've been brought to look at that currently?  (not just you bro. ded, but I've seen it often said, "that's the God they worship, they become like the God they worship, etc..", and your post "triggered me" to comment :). 

I'd suggest anyone who's been saved by grace and the blood of Calvary, worship the same God we do.  He's the same God, the same Holy Spirit draws them, the same grace saves them, the same Jesus died for them.  So I don't believe it's "an evil God they worship" - I just believe there's yet a veil that remains to where many just can't as yet see more of the total aspect of God, what more He really is than what we were taught - which as through a glass darkly, I believe that includes all of us to some extent.  So "the God" is not psychotic or evil, it's often a deficit in our perception and perspective - our view - the place where God has each of us in our walk.   It's kind of like someone who's extremely depressed, and another person who's well and in a good mood, looking at the same mountain.  The depressive only sees the clouds, the fog, the rocks that are gray and dreary and so hard to climb.  The well person sees the beautiful trees, the sun breaking through them, the mountain reaching up out of the clouds, and thinks how majestic is the view.  They see and understand it differently, but it's the same mountain.  So IMO, same God, but different views and understandings.   :2c:  Blessings.

Amen!

They are still our brothers and sisters in Christ. 

[eaglesway]

I woud like to use an incident from the old testament as an example.

Jeroboam was Solomon's chief builder. He was a man of God and loved by his workers. When Solomom died and Rehoboam became king in Solomon's place, Rehoboam oppressed the nation and the ten tribes of Israel split off. God sent a prophet to Jerobaom, the prophet said, "I(God) will make you like David with a throne that endures forever."

When Jeroboam became king tho, he got fearful. He became possessive. He said, If I let the tribes of Israel go upt to Jerusalem to worship the Lord they will go back under Rehoboam. He put a golden calf at the souh in Beersheba and another at the north in Dan and he said, "These are your Gods O Israel".

He built a temple in Samaria and he put an image of the fish god Dagon in the house of the Lord there and worshipped the gods of the nations that surrounded him and drove the Levites out, created his own priesthood and  "sought to change the times and the seasons and the holy days".

In other words he created a new religion in the name of God but without the teaching of God or the prophetic spirit of God in it. ET is like Dagon in the temple. An abomination in the holy place. It is anti-christ because it distorts the image of Jesus and seeks to replace Him with an image of man's arrogance.

Later, Jesus said, "You Samaritans do not know what you worship, we worship what we know for salvation is of the Jews"

Many Christians today are like these Samaritans. Their is no historical connection remaining to the original faith but "a name that claims life, but is really dead". This, remember, is not about heaven and hell. It is about true worship. In order to worship truly, one must "know the one worshiped and be connected to Him." But only God knows who those are. Their doctrine may be confused or correct. The "good samaritan" for instance, was likely not as up on the latest revelation as the Pharisee and the Levite who passed the broken man on the road.

But the ones who put stumbling stones around the little ones and love to sit in the places of respect in the synagogue whose traditions make void the word of God- they are held accountable, as were the angels who left their proper estate and are bound over in chains of aidos darkness for the Day- these are the ones who are digging graves in the night and are tombs full of dead mens bones, the victims of their insincerity.

[Lazarus Short]

eaglesway sez:
"ET is like Dagon in the temple. An abomination in the holy place."

Laz replies:
That is just so profound, it is scary...it reminds me of what one Christian writer said about church hymnals:  You can smell the sulfur.  Oh - that sounds like ET.  :footmouth:

[micah7:9]

Please forgive me if this is irrelevant.

My wife left 24 years ago.  A little before Christmas last year a friend of mine asked if I still think about her.  I told him "every day".  He looked stunned.  He asked why.  I told him I still loved her as much today as I did the day we were married.  I'm afraid he became somewhat annoyed with me (I think in his own way he was trying to protect me).  He asked how I could love someone who did all those nasty things and then betrayed me and ran off with one of my friends.  I didn't have to think about the answer but I waited a few seconds before I answered.

I think the reason I hesitated was because the answer sounded cliche.  I told him my love for her didn't depend on what she did.  I don't think he understood, anyway he was a bit annoyed with me because I didn't hate her, so we moved the conversation along.  The point is, when it comes to love I think the whole thing is akin to a penguin (all black and white) either it's love, or it isn't.  If it isn't, you can paint it any colour you wish ... it just ain't what it ain't.

Love qualified is no love at all.

Not irrelevant and I hear and understand :HeartThrob:

[ded2daworld]

That's beautiful VineBranch and you are beautiful for understanding what Love is.

[VineBranch]

Does a parent who lets there child do anything  without consequence love them? Parental love is qualified by responsibilty. It is not "quantified" by a childs behavior, good or ill- but if it is not responsible and teaching accountability to the child it is no love at all. It may not look like love at all to the child at the time, but God, who is love, disciplines His children. In fact, enduring this discipline qualifies us as children.

Hey Eagle :gimmefive:

I was using the word qualified in a linguistic sense, not in the sense of showing the qualities of love.  I was trying to show that if you qualified a word you limited it, like using an adjective (which are often called qualifiers).  Your examples are right on, and they show God's love qualifies us.  I was just saying that for me, love is love.  Love does not hate its neighbour, not because it has been told not to, but because that's not what love is all about.

If I may ... one of the things which has confused me since I first heard it is 'Tough Love'.  This is what I mean by a qualifier.  Every example of Tough Love I have ever seen has been an act of bullying:  people using aggression to coerce others to do what they want.  I don't think it is love; as Paul said, "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way..."(I Corintians 13: 4-5 ESV)

My question therefore becomes, how can something which violates the very definition, be used to confirm the definition?

[VineBranch]

Micah and Ded ... thanks.  Kinda tearing up here ... so...

[eaglesway]

Does a parent who lets there child do anything  without consequence love them? Parental love is qualified by responsibilty. It is not "quantified" by a childs behavior, good or ill- but if it is not responsible and teaching accountability to the child it is no love at all. It may not look like love at all to the child at the time, but God, who is love, disciplines His children. In fact, enduring this discipline qualifies us as children.

Hey Eagle :gimmefive:

I was using the word qualified in a linguistic sense, not in the sense of showing the qualities of love.  I was trying to show that if you qualified a word you limited it, like using an adjective (which are often called qualifiers).  Your examples are right on, and they show God's love qualifies us.  I was just saying that for me, love is love.  Love does not hate its neighbour, not because it has been told not to, but because that's not what love is all about.

If I may ... one of the things which has confused me since I first heard it is 'Tough Love'.  This is what I mean by a qualifier.  Every example of Tough Love I have ever seen has been an act of bullying:  people using aggression to coerce others to do what they want.  I don't think it is love; as Paul said, "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way..."(I Corintians 13: 4-5 ESV)

My question therefore becomes, how can something which violates the very definition, be used to confirm the definition?

Yea, its such a shame that words have lost their meaning to the extent that most Christians think love is allowing someone to burn endlessly and turning a deaf ear to their cries, or even rejoicing in their pain. I have to tell you, it really at times cause me to just sit back and wonder.

[VineBranch]

Yea, its such a shame that words have lost their meaning to the extent that most Christians think love is allowing someone to burn endlessly and turning a deaf ear to their cries, or even rejoicing in their pain. I have to tell you, it really at times cause me to just sit back and wonder.

You and me both brother, you and me both.

[reFORMer]

God's existence is not conditional.  He is the Absolute.  Yet "Unconditional Love" is one of the most difficult things for me to approve and practice in my own day to day walk.

You all seem to have it almost taken for granted it's so obvious to you.  I wish I was as certain.  It's like you're all old hands at this thing.  I'm checking out what you've written some more.  I really do need help in this area, regardless of some of the fine print on this subject.  I don't know how to be more loving.  A lot of what seems like love physically hurts my heart so much I have to stop it.  Like what I feel for my mother who seems like she's dying.  And, not to justify going the wrong way, but what about God's attitude to the workers of iniquity?

I guess I'm not speaking like I'm supposed to:  as an oracle of God.

[VineBranch]

I don't know how to be more loving.  A lot of what seems like love physically hurts my heart so much I have to stop it.  Like what I feel for my mother who seems like she's dying.  And, not to justify going the wrong way, but what about God's attitude to the workers of iniquity?

I guess I'm not speaking like I'm supposed to:  as an oracle of God.

ReF, I don't think you need to worry.  If your heart hurts for people, then I humbly suggest that you have the heart of God.  You love and worry about your mom, you physically ache from your loving, and you care about those who would be God's enemies.  I would say it is you who could teach me about love, not the other way around.

[sheila]

   the biggest LOVE...is hanging on a torture stake..bearing the iniquity of others...in love......Hurts..for sure....but wickedness

  should not prevail..even though there is great pain associated with it...LOVE IS THE WAY.

   we suffer because we love..and iniquity[lack of love] in others breaks our hearts

[ded2daworld]

Reformer - unconditional love is the hardest thing we are asked to do as christians and I believe it is impossible for non-believers. Some of us (like myself) may make it sound natural and easy but far from it. I know I talk a better game than I am. Part of it is our helplessness.A loved one is dying and we can't stop it. Even Jesus, knowing he would be bringing Lazarus back from the dead wept over him. and his almost tearful plea for ""Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling."
Some of us seem like old hands at it because we are. Mother dies, Father dies, sibling dies, best friend dies, many other friends die. Some with incredible pain and/or loss of dignity. We feel helpless - because we are. We can no more stop anyone else's death than we can stop our own. Without the love of God, the world is a sad, lonely, cruel, pointless, painful experience. :sigh:

[sheila]

we all hope in His love....and those who hope in the Lord shall not be disappointed.  Love never fails

[VineBranch]

ReF:

I have told most of my close friends that if for some reason, I came to the conclusion that there was no God, my first act after that conclusion would be to open my veins in the bathtub.  I am here for no other reason than God loves me.  If I have said anything that make me look wiser that that I owe you a great apology.