See eternal hell crumble before your eyes/ears

[misszoolander]

Pretty interesting debate, however I do wish that the UR person was talking to a more assertive Pastor, he made it seem to easy to break the logic of an eternal hell. Maybe it is supposed to be too easy?  :dontknow:

Has anyone read Tom Talbotts book: Universal Salvation?The debate. I've heard this gives readers a fair view on all sides.

[ded2daworld]

How can we read the debate?

[misszoolander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2wy77GQNkF0   :doh: lol

[Lazarus Short]

I'm about to enter a debate, so I'll consider watching the vid as homework and preparation.  Zoo, you are very timely, thank you!

Edit:  Sorry - the voices were too indistinct, too soft, did about five minutes and quit.

[CHB]

This preacher is so mixed up it is pitiful. I hope he goes back and listens to himself and reads as he listens.

CHB

[misszoolander]

I'm about to enter a debate, so I'll consider watching the vid as homework and preparation.  Zoo, you are very timely, thank you!

Edit:  Sorry - the voices were too indistinct, too soft, did about five minutes and quit.

Do you mean Laz that you could not hear the ET's voice? I had to use ear phones as he did sound hazy.

[Lazarus Short]

I'm about to enter a debate, so I'll consider watching the vid as homework and preparation.  Zoo, you are very timely, thank you!

Edit:  Sorry - the voices were too indistinct, too soft, did about five minutes and quit.

Do you mean Laz that you could not hear the ET's voice? I had to use ear phones as he did sound hazy.

I could not hear either one particularly well, especially the ET.  It is probably due to the telephone connection, and a bad microphone.

[ded2daworld]

His answers were typical doctrine that is shoveled and it appeared as though he was thinking for the first time about what the UR guy brought up. So here's my take. Nobody from his congregation has ever challenged anything he's ever said so he hasn't had to think. He may be "cloistered" and not get out in the real world much. One thing I love about the internet.  - No matter what you say or believe, someone will pop up to challenge it and make you think about it from another perspective. I watched a video from an atheist yesterday and he totally destroyed the ET doctrine with just common sense and logic (He thought he was destroying Christianity since most people think if you're a christian you think everyone else will burn for all eternity)

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, Jeff, so many atheists are so good at analyzing stuff, given their brilliant minds (and shallow understanding).  I know, I used to be one.  Debunking ET is so easy, it's almost like a strawman exercise.  A caveman could do it.

[micah7:9]

I hope I am not berated, but the pastors answers were "silly." :HeartThrob:

[misszoolander]

His answers were typical doctrine that is shoveled and it appeared as though he was thinking for the first time about what the UR guy brought up. So here's my take. Nobody from his congregation has ever challenged anything he's ever said so he hasn't had to think. He may be "cloistered" and not get out in the real world much. One thing I love about the internet.  - No matter what you say or believe, someone will pop up to challenge it and make you think about it from another perspective. I watched a video from an atheist yesterday and he totally destroyed the ET doctrine with just common sense and logic (He thought he was destroying Christianity since most people think if you're a christian you think everyone else will burn for all eternity)

I guess that is what I loved about this debate, this debate showed me my old self (the Pastor) and my new self (UR guy).

Back when I believed ET I never questioned anything, I was content to believe whatever I was told, I was lazy.
I believe that although asking questions about God seems like you lack faith in him, it actually proves you do care.

Only people that want true answers ask questions. I was a lazy Christian back then, the church was my cornerstone but now... Well Christ is my cornerstone, and each day brings a new revelation with him.

[ded2daworld]

yeah, MIcah - like I said, it was as if he had read the bible pnce many years ago and then hadn't thought much about it since.
Some pastors know a lot more "pop" psychology than they know scripture and preach like a psychologist would to "help" his congregation. KInda like these vhurches that sponsored famous Psychologist Dwayne Dyer author of "Your Erroneous Zones"
he preaches what ET'ers accuse us of believing - everyone gets to heaven scot free-no punishment-no correction- not even a reprimand and God sort of apologising to us for not making everything crystal clear.  :doh: Oy Vey :laugh:

[VineBranch]

Because the words are important to me I would like to take umbrage with the atheist's use of the word persuasion.  I don't think Satan persuaded Eve to take the fruit.  He lied to her.  Then he confused her by asking her if God really said what Satan himself knew God really said.  If Eve would have said to the snake "hang on a minute I'll check with God what He said, won't be a minute, oh here He comes now ... God, hi over here.", I think her next sentence would have been, "Now where did that snake go?  He was here a minute ago".

The thing Satan did was tell Eve that she could make up her own mind and that God didn't mean what He said.  So, he lied, and bullied Eve:  and this guy thinks that is what God does to show me how much He loves me, and equates God and Satan's MO?  The whole 'debate' is based on the atheist's assumption that he is right.  "And you shall be as God".  That is something most people don't need to be persuaded to believe, so how come Satan gets all the credit for doing what a first year advertizing executive does to millions of people every day?  The sentence should not have been, Satan has the power to persuade people to do what he wants them to, the sentence should have been, Satan has the power to convince people to do what they want to do in the first place.  Well, frankly anyone can do that.

[eaglesway]

Every person sins when he/she is drawn away of their own lust and enticed.

IMO, It wasn't just that Satan convinced Eve to make up her own mind, because she could have made up her mind to trust the Creator. I wonder, when we consider this concept of original sin, if we have a"chicken or the egg" thing going on because someone could say Eve sinned before she ate, as she "saw that it was good to make one wise" and lusted after that wisdom.

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish(tree of knowledge of good & evil). For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work(death/chaos). But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy(tree of life). And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace(communion/harmony).
(Jas 3:13-18)

[ded2daworld]

What was done to Eve is getting her to question the word of God.
SERPENT: "Did God REALLY say..."
Then Eve added to the word of God when quoting it back to the serpent
EVE: He said we must not eat it  or TOUCH IT or you will die.
At this point the serpent could have let his body brush against the fruit and say:
Serpent: You won't REALLY die, you'll be like God and he knows it. (Implying God lied to her)
Then when she saw she wasn't harmed by the prohibition that she herself had added of touching the fruit.
she assumed that the word of God had been wrong and what someone other than God told her was right.
So the whole problem was doubting/misinterpreting/adding to the word of God and listening to someone else deny what God had said.
And I think that has been a problem up to the present day. I am very wary of anyone that's wants to change, make excuses for, add to, or twist the scriptures by redefinition of words.

[sheila]

good comments :thumbsup:    I think there was a serpent hanging on that tree.And Eve was unable to discern/know the

the difference between He who loved her..and him who hated her.  Thus the son of God on a tree/bronze serpent lifted up

in the wilderness. The Son of God coming to reveal Him who loves us. and show us him who doesn't.  That man should

  KNOW THE FATHER,and KNOW LOVE..and be able to discern the difference.

   I think we did NOT KNOW WHAT LOVE WAS/FORGIVE THEM FATHER,THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO

[VineBranch]

I wonder, when we consider this concept of original sin, if we have a"chicken or the egg" thing going on because someone could say Eve sinned before she ate, as she "saw that it was good to make one wise" and lusted after that wisdom.

I'm totally convinced the sin happened long before the act.  The covet occurs before the theft, the lust before the deed.  I think you are right in this case.  Sin takes a lot of groundwork.  I also believe that changing your mind (or repenting) is what Paul had in mind when he said "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God"(Romans 12:2 ). I think in a lot of cases, the act is merely the confirmation that the sin has already occurred.

[ded2daworld]

IMO -The sin is "crouching at the door" - in the mind before the body acts on it.
When Eve lusted after the fruit, she still, at that time, had not broken the direct commandment of "do not eat" :Peace2:

[sheila]

 well..when Jesus said 'do not even keep looking at a woman with lust/desire] He said it was just the same for the thought desire

to be in your heart/adultery.  And when He give the sop to Judas[the devil already to have put it in the heart] satan entered

Judas...and Jesus said..'what you are about to do..do quickly"

   above all things guard your heart..for out of the heart comes what defiles a man...again heart motivation :HeartThrob:

  what do you think the heart motivation is that would lead someone out to desire what would bring it death,misery,suffering?

   what is the heart motivation that calls/in-sin-u-ate God has lied?

[ded2daworld]

I meant she hadn't physically broken the commandment while acknowledging
the sin was first in her mind. Sorry I didn't make it clear. :Peace2:

[sheila]

 :dontknow:  LOL!  i THOUGHT THE SCRIPTURES i PUT UP WAS SHOWING AGREEMENT...THAT YES..IN THE MIND..FIRST..THEN

  HEART..-THEN ACTION.   :iagree:   I WASN'T DISAGREEING :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Every person sins when he/she is drawn away of their own lust and enticed.

IMO, It wasn't just that Satan convinced Eve to make up her own mind, because she could have made up her mind to trust the Creator. I wonder, when we consider this concept of original sin, if we have a"chicken or the egg" thing going on because someone could say Eve sinned before she ate, as she "saw that it was good to make one wise" and lusted after that wisdom.

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish(tree of knowledge of good & evil). For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work(death/chaos). But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy(tree of life). And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace(communion/harmony).
(Jas 3:13-18)

"IMO, It wasn't just that Satan convinced Eve to make up her own mind, because she could have made up her mind to trust the Creator." 
Just how would that be possible? How could/would that have been possible? In affect, imo, that would leave The Lord holding the bag for admitting that His creation malfunctioned. And in my opinion, that is not an option. Either ALL went as the Creator planned or HE made a mistake. And that I will not accept. :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I understand your point Micah, and don't really disagree- I was just making the theoretical opposite of "Original sin was Eve deciding to make up her own mind". That was not the nature of the sin IMO. If, theoretically, she had not disobeyed, God would not have been left holding the bag for anything, because there would have been no fall.

[micah7:9]

"the theoretical " has, was, and is my stumbling block all along.  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Ah Yes, that great stumbling block between our ears  :Peace2: