Does God break His own commandments?

[Brad]

I accidently posted this in the wrong forum earlier.

"Why at the time of Moses did God give the 10 Commandments, yet for years on end - he led his people to fight & murder to enter Canaan?"

A friend of mine asked this question today on a new forum that we belong to, and it really got me thinking.  I did a little research and came across Tentmaker and this article:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/godislove.html#Love%20Your%20Enemies

I haven't finished the article yet, but it is thought-provoking.  I'm not a Universalist, but I'm willing to examine any idea, no matter who is sharing the idea.  But I have to say that I'm stumped by my friend's question, which can be found here, BTW:

http://christianchat.forumotion.com/t85-did-god-break-his-own-commandments#626

It is a new and small (as of now) forum and we are welcoming new members if any of y'all are interested! 

Anyway, I look forward to any responses to the question that I might get here

[eaglesway]

Perhaps God does not define murder as we do.

All killing is not murder. As Paul said, the guv'nor does not bear the sword in vain. It is for lawbreakers, murderers, etc.

Within the same law that was built upon the 10 commandments there were penalties for certain transgressions that merited the death sentence.

If all killing is murder, then we don't need to look at Israel. God Himself killed all the souls left in Sodom and Gomorrah, after Lot's household left.

All killing is abhorent. But in this age some killing is necessary and done by divinely instituted authority.

In the last age perhaps it was even more necessary than in this- not to mention the age before the flood, in which God killed perhaps over a billion people.

Thank God, in the age to come, the lion will lay down with the Lamb, and they will beat their swords into plowshears, and the Lord will rule with a rod of iron from Jerusalem, so that all men may live in peace.

It won't be until one or two ages after that one that God will be all in all and all rule power and authority will be done away with and death, the last adversary, will be no more(1 Cor 15).

[Lazarus Short]

I'm bringing my reply over from the other fourm:

Keep in mind two things:

God has full authority over the whole Earth, and everyone/everything in it.  The Commandments are for us, yet they (and the whole Law) reflect God's Eternal Character.

God has a much more comprehensive perspective on things than we possess.  He knows which peoples have "filled up the cup of their indignation," and which are still redeemable.  Note how He kept Moab and Ammon out of harm's way, even though they treated Israel poorly.

[jabcat]

Hi Brad.  I'll dig into your question more later, but wanted to make a couple of quick comments.

I really appreciate your attitude.  IMO, there's absolutely no reason why someone who believes in either eternal torment, eternal death, or ultimate reconciliation cannot function as brothers and sisters in Christ - despite some fundamental doctrinal differences.  AS LONG AS the very basic foundational shared belief is Jesus Christ, Him crucified, and risen again.  Welcome here, and thank you for your offer of fellowship.  Many Christian websites are not open to even talking much with someone who believes Jesus is Savior of the world and all will eventually be reconciled to Him.  A quick ban is often the outcome.  So again, thanks and blessings.

James.

[Brad]

Thanks, James.  Indeed, we are united as one body in Christ, and ought to think and act like it.  Doctrine does not save, Jesus does.  I've been perusing your forum and am glad to see that spirit of unity which you referred to.  I think I'll stay an read a bit, and maybe ask some questions.  Please stop by our forum (linked to in the OP). We are a small but spiritually hungry group, an very welcoming.  I'm sure the members there would like to listen to an discuss your views.

Hi Brad.  I'll dig into your question more later, but wanted to make a couple of quick comments.

I really appreciate your attitude.  IMO, there's absolutely no reason why someone who believes in either eternal torment, eternal death, or ultimate reconciliation cannot function as brothers and sisters in Christ - despite some fundamental doctrinal differences.  AS LONG AS the very basic foundational shared belief is Jesus Christ, Him crucified, and risen again.  Welcome here, and thank you for your offer of fellowship.  Many Christian websites are not open to even talking much with someone who believes Jesus is Savior of the world and all will eventually be reconciled to Him.  A quick ban is often the outcome.  So again, thanks and blessings.

James.

[jabcat]

Thank you.   :gimmefive:

(some good, helpful [to me] comments so far guys  :thumbsup:)

[reFORMer]

The Israelites had a reputation due to events surrounding their departure from Egypt. They were world renowned by the time they came up out of the desert after 40 years. Now they and their very active God were entering Canaan. God went with them to "drive out" the nations of Canaan before them. Archeology shows most had already abandoned the land, going to surrounding nations. Maybe only 2 1/2 % were killed.

God was set to eradicate their abominable culture. They were known as very cruel people. The Pharaoh under whom Israel suffered in Moses' day was of them, an Ammonite. I'm sure this fact was not lost on the many mothers whose baby sons were murdered. An example of Canaanitish religious practices, their worship of God, was to combine fertility worship with a funeral. This means the whole family, as well as the corpse and including animals like dogs and goats participated. They also practiced child sacrifice. When the Israelites followed their ways later on, they went one step farther, adding homosexuality.

If this national action commanded by God was wrong, then please consider a family with these practices and accompanying diseases moving in next door to yours. For you to forbid your children to play with them will certainly be ineffectual.

[Deena]

Very interesting question. I appreciate your insight Reformer. I was also thinking of the verse (my paraphrase) that states God makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. I believe that regardless of which a person is, God reveals Himself--honorable things/characteristics God praises and lifts up--dishonorable ones are admonished and discarded. In this , however, I can't help but feel sorry for the dishonorable ones. Can they be or do any differently? I know that before I came to believe in Christ I was clueless. All that I am and have come to understand is by the grace of God--I didn't know that I didn't know before He revealed Himself. But even that was done by God. I have also wondered about Job's kids. What did they do to be put to death? Well, there I go down the rabbit hole again...

[redhotmagma]

God subjected all to disobedience that He may have mercy on all. Oh the depth and wisdom and riches of God.

[redhotmagma]

To the op.   One of the ten says make no graven images. Then in the building of the tabernacle they were to make graven images of the cherubim. I used to think this was breaking a command, and it still may be ( or at least an exception ). OR the cherubim are not real and are a placeholder or only a symbol. I tend toward the latter but the net effect was the same. The Israelites worshipped the cherubim nonetheless. And in Ezekiel it says "I gave them commandments that were not good for them".

My point... This is a  :wacko2:  :dontknow: confusing and convoluted subject.

[eaglesway]

To the op.   One of the ten says make no graven images. Then in the building of the tabernacle they were to make graven images of the cherubim. I used to think this was breaking a command, and it still may be ( or at least an exception ). OR the cherubim are not real and are a placeholder or only a symbol. I tend toward the latter but the net effect was the same. The Israelites worshipped the cherubim nonetheless. And in Ezekiel it says "I gave them commandments that were not good for them".

My point... This is a  :wacko2:  :dontknow: confusing and convoluted subject.

IMO "Thou shalt have no graven images before me" was about images made for worship, images of gods and mythical creatures worshipped in the place of their gods- it was not a prohibition against sculpture. :o)

[seekfirst]

Re: "Why at the time of Moses did God give the 10 commandments, yet for years on end - he led his people to fight and murder to enter Canaan." 

To this I would add:  why dash the their little ones against the stones?  (Ps 137:9)  Also see Isaiah 13:18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. 

Someone, perhaps on this forum, introduced me to a principle that has brought much peace to my struggles with God's "cruel" ways in the OT.

Briefly, the principle  "physical realities reveal spiritual truths"  when applied could mean:

physical reality:  fighting, murdering...to enter Canaan  (promised land)
spiritual truth: fighting, killing, putting to death (crucify) self to enter the Promised Land--Christ

physical reality: dash little ones...no pity on the fruit of the womb
spiritual truth:  James 1:15 ...when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

But James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 

Sorry, I realize this is a bit sketchy, but for me looking at the physical events in the Bible with an eye to seeing spiritual applications helps me in understanding a bit more John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It seems to me that there are Scriptures that would indicate that God and God alone will accomplish what was/is necessary to enter the Promised Land... I will take some time later to check for these verses...

Yes, the people were physically killed and the little ones were physically dashed/killed and how horrible that is... and, of course, I do not FEEL good or joyful about those deaths and especially in the way they died physically...  it's really, really hard to understand all that physical pain... but those murdered, dashed are ALL included in the all in Christ live...

[ded2daworld]

Personally, I have always seen evil as a cancer. In the old days, the Israelites would practice
evil however it was practiced by their neighbors. No pagan neighbors, no evil practices copied.
The best way to remove a cancer is totally, completely. The killing of the livestock was to show the Isrealites
that they were not to benefit other than the removal of the evil.
No slaves, no getting rich(wealth was in land, slaves and animals then) because of the ordered removal of the cancer.(evil)
I can't remember where (maybe king Hezekiah) but an Israeli king was ordered to kill every man, woman. and child of a particular nation.
Not only did the king not kill all the livestock but he allowed one small boy to live. You guessed it, the kid grew up and led an army that killed thousands of the Israelites.

[sheila]

Lev 18;25  even the land was defiled..so I punished it for it's sins and the land vomited out it's inhabitants.

  what God is showing is the corruption being rejected[evil] and Him planting the incorruptible.

  in this good/evil exercize...He is showing the casting out of wickedness so that His image may dwell

  in it..  The promised land of God as an eternal inheritance has no wickedness in it.  He demonstrates

what is not seen...by evidencing it in men as examples of evil/good...wrath/love. evil shall not dwell

with Him..but be vomited out of His presence[have no inheritance in the promised land.]

   Now He is fair in His judgements..as to any man given over as a vessel of wrath..and the rod is used on him,

  is remade into a vessel of mercy.  I kill AND MAKE ALIVE..............

   this good/evil exercize is a spiritual war of the enmity between the seeds.  no serpent seed shall inherit

[lomarah]

 :thumbsup:

Also: killing is murder when it is done by man's will. When God kills or commands His people to kill, however, it is always for righteousness sake. (See Sheila's note above, I kill and make alive.)

Would it be merciful to let the nations that lived like reFORMer described to stay alive and continue to burn their children in the fire and do other unspeakable things?

Never doubt the heart of your Father. It is ALWAYS good, it is ALWAYS love. (Look to Jesus, the express image of Father.)  :HeartThrob:

[shawn]

Brad said, Thanks, James.  Indeed, we are united as one body in Christ, and ought to think and act like it.  Doctrine does not save, Jesus does.

And there it is...great post.

[shawn]

Does God judge our neighbor?  Are we supposed to judge our neighbor?

The commandments are for us, not for God though they reflect His holiness and love.  God giveth and taketh away, and life is a blessing not a right.  Man is not to take life without God given authority.  God gave us life, and has the right to take our life.

[micah7:9]

I'm bringing my reply over from the other fourm:

Keep in mind two things:

God has full authority over the whole Earth, and everyone/everything in it.  The Commandments are for us, yet they (and the whole Law) reflect God's Eternal Character.

God has a much more comprehensive perspective on things than we possess.  He knows which peoples have "filled up the cup of their indignation," and which are still redeemable.  Note how He kept Moab and Ammon out of harm's way, even though they treated Israel poorly.

:thumbsup:

[sheila]

  yep...He cuts it short..that the spirit not fail.

[Brad]

Thanks for the responses, folks.

[reFORMer]

The Law of God is just that: God. The written law is pale minutiae by comparison. The meaning of what is written is known by God. Man's knowledge is "in part." Our prophecy is "in part." This knowledge and prophecy includes our scripture which is in part. There is the comparison between the Son and ourselves. His is: "...the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (Jn 1:14) Ours is: "And of his fulness have all we received..." (Jn 1:16) Rather than comprehensive, what is given in the scripture is more than adequate for what God knows we need and can use. If we think God's written word contradicts His incarnate, glorified Word, it is because we do not have enough written in our hearts and minds to explain the difference between the apparent and the effulgent word.

To be in His way of blessing, it is His word to, "Do 6213 all His commandments 4687 ..." (Dt 30:8) God says, speaking with Moses, the word 1697 is, "...in thy heart 3824, that thou mayest do 6213 it." (Dt 30:14) That doing in Hebrew is asah (Strong's H6213.) It primarily means: "to do, work, make, produce" Secondarily it is, "to press, squeeze." We are to "press and squeeze" His word. We are building all His commandments.

This "doing" of His words means we are "to obtain and produce" His word. "In our hearts," we are to "build" His word. Together in our place, the visible and local Church "builds" God's word. Each of us corporately are building according to the pattern seen in the Mount. Individually we continue to build more in our hearts than we had previously. We are all on a path, "Till we all come...unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ep 4:13)


And thou shalt return 7725 and obey 8085 the voice 6963 of the LORD 3068, and do 6213 all his commandments 4687which I command 6680 thee this day 3117. -- Deuteronomy 30:8 KJV (with Strong's numbers)

But the word 1697 [is] very 3966 nigh 7138 unto thee, in thy mouth 6310, and in thy heart 3824, that thou mayest do 6213 it.  -- Deuteronomy 30:14 KJV (with Strong's numbers)

[Brad]

I like the way you think!

The Law of God is just that: God. The written law is pale minutiae by comparison. The meaning of what is written is known by God. Man's knowledge is "in part." Our prophecy is "in part." This knowledge and prophecy includes our scripture which is in part. There is the comparison between the Son and ourselves. His is: "...the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (Jn 1:14) Ours is: "And of his fulness have all we received..." (Jn 1:16) Rather than comprehensive, what is given in the scripture is more than adequate for what God knows we need and can use. If we think God's written word contradicts His incarnate, glorified Word, it is because we do not have enough written in our hearts and minds to explain the difference between the apparent and the effulgent word.

To be in His way of blessing, it is His word to, "Do 6213 all His commandments 4687 ..." (Dt 30:8) God says, speaking with Moses, the word 1697 is, "...in thy heart 3824, that thou mayest do 6213 it." (Dt 30:14) That doing in Hebrew is asah (Strong's H6213.) It primarily means: "to do, work, make, produce" Secondarily it is, "to press, squeeze." We are to "press and squeeze" His word. We are building all His commandments.

This "doing" of His words means we are "to obtain and produce" His word. "In our hearts," we are to "build" His word. Together in our place, the visible and local Church "builds" God's word. Each of us corporately are building according to the pattern seen in the Mount. Individually we continue to build more in our hearts than we had previously. We are all on a path, "Till we all come...unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ep 4:13)


And thou shalt return 7725 and obey 8085 the voice 6963 of the LORD 3068, and do 6213 all his commandments 4687which I command 6680 thee this day 3117. -- Deuteronomy 30:8 KJV (with Strong's numbers)

But the word 1697 [is] very 3966 nigh 7138 unto thee, in thy mouth 6310, and in thy heart 3824, that thou mayest do 6213 it.  -- Deuteronomy 30:14 KJV (with Strong's numbers)

[eaglesway]

The Law of God is just that: God. The written law is pale minutiae by comparison. The meaning of what is written is known by God. Man's knowledge is "in part." Our prophecy is "in part." This knowledge and prophecy includes our scripture which is in part. There is the comparison between the Son and ourselves. His is: "...the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (Jn 1:14) Ours is: "And of his fulness have all we received..." (Jn 1:16) Rather than comprehensive, what is given in the scripture is more than adequate for what God knows we need and can use. If we think God's written word contradicts His incarnate, glorified Word, it is because we do not have enough written in our hearts and minds to explain the difference between the apparent and the effulgent word.

To be in His way of blessing, it is His word to, "Do 6213 all His commandments 4687 ..." (Dt 30:8) God says, speaking with Moses, the word 1697 is, "...in thy heart 3824, that thou mayest do 6213 it." (Dt 30:14) That doing in Hebrew is asah (Strong's H6213.) It primarily means: "to do, work, make, produce" Secondarily it is, "to press, squeeze." We are to "press and squeeze" His word. We are building all His commandments.

This "doing" of His words means we are "to obtain and produce" His word. "In our hearts," we are to "build" His word. Together in our place, the visible and local Church "builds" God's word. Each of us corporately are building according to the pattern seen in the Mount. Individually we continue to build more in our hearts than we had previously. We are all on a path, "Till we all come...unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ep 4:13)


And thou shalt return 7725 and obey 8085 the voice 6963 of the LORD 3068, and do 6213 all his commandments 4687which I command 6680 thee this day 3117. -- Deuteronomy 30:8 KJV (with Strong's numbers)

But the word 1697 [is] very 3966 nigh 7138 unto thee, in thy mouth 6310, and in thy heart 3824, that thou mayest do 6213 it.  -- Deuteronomy 30:14 KJV (with Strong's numbers)

Yes, Very edifying.

[Samuel Cripps]

I'm not a Universalist, but I'm willing to examine any idea, no matter who is sharing the idea.  But I have to say that I'm stumped by my friend's question, which can be found here, BTW:

http://christianchat.forumotion.com/t85-did-god-break-his-own-commandments#626

It is a new and small (as of now) forum and we are welcoming new members if any of y'all are interested! 

I poked around your forum and stumbled upon this thread concerning "Universalists":

http://christianchat.forumotion.com/t153-universalists-the-ear-ticklers

I'm not going to register there, as I barely have time to spend on internet forums, but feel free to share my reaction to the OP.

The idea that all will be saved does not tickle the ears.  Tickling provides only a momentary laughter, whereas the belief in the complete and perfect work of Christ Jesus is a belief that helps us to more fully appreciate the joy we are to have in Christ's finished work. 

[Lazarus Short]

I just got back from Christian Chat, where I registered, and made a longish defense of UR.  I suppose I will be vilified for my efforts.  Somebody has to do it <washes hands>.