How can I be assured that all people will be saved?

[WhiteWings]

Some people can just accept things. Others need solid proof. Remembering his posts about his hobby, my guess is that BT is looking for a nice formula instead of a verse..... :-)

[WhiteWings]

I think that what I'm worried is that I feel that God is very good, he loves everyone... And I feel it in my heart that he will save all people.

Sounds good.
"Very good" "loves everyone" are very important bit of proof decribing the essence of God.
That's a huge pointer to what His goals are. Goals which will be reached unless He's not all powerful.
Absolute power isn't only about destruction but also repair/healing.

However, I lack absolute, smoking gun 100% scriptural proof that he's indeed savior of everyone.

Neither have you a smoking ET gun.

I mean - all quotes about the narrow path, all quotes about being chosen, all quotes about being a strict follower... The whole  Bible screams about excluding, and not including.

In the OT we see God exiles His people several times for the wrongs they did. But He always gives them another chance.
(Ps 30:5) For his anger is but for a moment. His favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy [is] in the morning.
==> That verse shows God has anger but clearly states it never lasts long. It's vastly outclassed by love.

(2Sam 14:14) For we must die, and are as water split on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again, neither does God take away life, but devises means that he who is banished be not an outcast from him.
==> Again we see death, destruction and punishiment. But God devises a plan to fix things. Will He be able to figure out a way.....?

So, BT, the exclusion verses are not permanent. They may seem permanent because they aren't 'revoked' the next verse. Their context is difficult.
But the 2 verses I posted above show that exclusion is always followed by inclusion. And those verses don't contradict things like "wide road".

[WhiteWings]

However, if you are looking for evidence in the scriptures, there is an abundance of it. It is a narrow road that leads to life. The question is not whether there is death, or whether there is correction for sin. The question is (in my mind) does God intend to punish and torment humans who hav resisted His grace FOREVER? Or for a time that will end when "Every knee has bowed and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father" Phil 2:10,11

The scriptures that sealed the deal for me are:

Ephesians 1:9-11

Colossians 1:16-21

Romans 8:18-21

Romans 11:32-36

1 Corinthians 15:21-28

Phillipians 2:10,11

Revelations 5:13

There are so many more, but if God does not reconcile ALL..... Colossians 1:16-21 is a LIE

If God does not gather ALL into one in Christ.... Ephesians 1:9-11 is a LIE

If God does not set the WHOLE CREATION free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God....  Romans 8:18-21 is a lie

Yep. Unless Scripture contradics it teaches UR, ED or ET from cover to cover.
The posts I made just above this one are an explanation for the contradictions there may seem to be on the surface.
The other explanation is applying "proper exegesis" to prove black cubes are actually white spheres....
I think that the mai problem for BT????

[KingKenny]

I know how BT feels.

Stuff like NDE's, King James Bible Codes, the Book of Enoch and even the Golden Ration regarding Makkah have all contributed to my 'lukewarm' faith in UR (yes, I am aware of the Bible verse about lukewarm faith).

I once had that 100 signed, sealed, delivered feeling on UR. I loved everyone, I could forgive everyone and I couldn't hold any more grudges. Such peace, such love, such glory in seeing people and knowing not one will be lost. It's awful when you look at people and wonder whether they'll be in the LOF eternally or on the New Earth. Feels like you're walking in a haze induced by drugs.

[eaglesway]

I becamea believer in UR through the study of the scriptures- but my quest was led by the Spirit :o)

[Molly]

Enemies and Friends Attend to Jesus' Body


John finds the events immediately following Jesus' death to be highly significant. He begins with Pilate and the Jewish opponents (v. 31), then the soldiers (vv. 32-37) and finally Jesus' friends (vv. 38-42). This is the same sequence he followed in the previous section (cf. vv. 19-27). The opponents are still trying to discredit Jesus even after his death; the soldiers unwittingly produce a witness to Jesus through their actions, as do Jesus' friends. The striking new feature is the witness of Jesus himself. The way in which he died was a witness to the truth about himself (see comment on v. 30), but now, even after he has died, his body produces a witness both to the truth about his identity and to the truth about what his death has accomplished (vv. 34-37).The Jewish Leaders Ask Pilate to Mutilate Jesus' Body (19:31) Death by crucifixion could take a very long time, but the Romans did not mind this because it added to the deterrent value. But sometimes the Romans would smash the victim's legs with a heavy hammer, which prevented the person from pushing up in order to breathe and thereby caused death from suffocation within minutes (Edwards, Gabel and Hosmer 1986:1461). The Jewish opponents ask Pilate to have the soldiers speed up the dying process in this way in order to get the bodies disposed of before the next day, which was a special Sabbath. In the law it says the body of a person put to death and hung on a tree must not be left on the tree overnight. "Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance" (Deut 21:23). This law applies to any day of the year, so how much more to a special feast day. These Jewish leaders continue to be greatly concerned with ritual purity (cf. 18:28), but more may be involved as well. They might intend that such mutilation would emphasize the point already made clear by the crucifixion itself--that Jesus was accursed (Beasley-Murray 1987:354). The Soldiers' Actions Provide Further Witness to Jesus (19:32-37) The soldiers break the legs of the other two men being crucified, perhaps working in toward Jesus from the two sides (v. 32; Bruce 1983:375). When they come to Jesus they find him already dead and therefore do not break his legs (v. 33). In this way, although the opponents attempted to further discredit Jesus, they unwittingly bear witness to what he has accomplished. Jesus has drunk the cup of God's wrath and indeed has become accursed (cf. vv. 28-29; Gal 3:13). But as the Lamb of God, Jesus has taken away the sin of the world. The opponents' attempt to have Jesus' legs broken ends up drawing attention to the fact that they were not broken. Thus, another pattern of Scripture is echoed: Not one of his bones will be broken (v. 36). The allusion is to the Passover lamb (Ex 12:46; Num 9:12) and to King David as the righteous sufferer (Ps 34:20), thereby continuing the juxtaposition of themes that John has emphasized in his account of the Passion. In this way, the body of Jesus continues to bear witness to his identity and his accomplishment even after he has died.

His body also bears witness in another way, which is emphasized by John. For when the soldiers find Jesus dead one of them stabs him to be sure he is dead, and out comes a sudden flow of blood and water (v. 34). The word pierce (nysso) can be used of either a jab or a deep stab. Medical explanations of this flow of blood and water differ according to the depth of the wound. One theory is that the scourging produced "a bloody accumulation" in the chest, which separated into layers as he hung on the cross, with the heavier blood on the bottom. The wound from the spear entered below the level of separation, so the liquid came out first red and then more clear (Sava 1960). The other main theory is that Jesus was stabbed in the heart, so the blood came from the heart while the water came from the pericardial sac around the heart (Edwards, Gabel and Hosmer 1986:1463).

There have been many suggestions over the centuries for the significance of this flow (cf. Westcott 1908:2:328-33), and John may see a very complex web of associations. It is possible, in the light of later rabbinic thought, that the flow of blood and water mingled together is yet another allusion to Jesus as a Passover sacrifice. The blood of a sacrifice had to flow at the moment of death so it could be sprinkled (m. Pesahim 5:5, 8). Thus, this description may suggest that Jesus was a valid sacrifice (cf. Ford 1969; Brown 1970:951).

Jesus used both blood and water as important symbols in his teaching, and this gives us guidance for their import here. Water has been associated with cleansing (1:26, 31, 33; 2:6; 13:5), the new birth (3:5) and the Spirit (7:38-39). The reference to living water in chapter 4 is probably a comprehensive image for the Spirit, revelation and salvation (see comment on 4:10). Blood has referred to Jesus' sacrificial death, which brings life to the world (6:53-56). From these associations it would seem that in this flow of blood and water "John saw a symbol of the fact that from the Crucified there proceed those living streams by which men are quickened and the church lives" (Barrett 1978:557; cf. Dodd 1953:428; Schnackenburg 1982:294).

The fact that water symbolizes purification, the Spirit and the new birth provides a connection with baptism. The fact that blood symbolizes the sacrificial death of Christ, which gives life to the world, provides a connection with the Eucharist. These are "the ideas which underlie the two Sacraments" (Westcott 1908:2:320) and thus support the allusion to the sacraments that Christians have found here throughout the centuries (cf. Hoskyns 1940b:635-38).

As with the unbroken bones, so with the piercing: it is not only rich in symbolism but also a fulfillment of Scripture (v. 37). The passage cited is Zechariah 12:10, in which God says, "They will look on me, the one they have pierced." Here God seems to be identified with the leader of his people, a shepherd who is raised up by God (11:16) and yet will be struck by the sword (13:7). This passage, therefore, picks up the theme of the Good Shepherd who is one with God, laying down his life. Again, Jesus' identity and his fulfillment of God's will is conveyed through the replication of a Scriptural pattern.

The piercing is the point of interest for John (Barrett 1978:557), but perhaps there is also significance in those who look upon the pierced one. In Zechariah, the ones who look at him are "the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" upon whom God has poured out "a spirit of grace and supplication" (Zech 12:10). Accordingly, they do not look upon him in fear, but rather "they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son" (Zech 12:10). Given the focus in the Passion account on the salvation Jesus has accomplished, perhaps "the salvation aspect is to the fore here also. Naturally the obverse of judgment for those who persist in looking on the Redeemer in unbelief is not excluded" (Beasley-Murray 1987:355; cf. Schnackenburg 1982:292-94). If this is the case, then this echo of Scripture speaks not only of Jesus' identity and work, but also of the fruit of that work as he is lifted up and draws all to himself (Jn 12:32). Indeed, the next scene shows us the first two examples of this fruit.

Between John's description of these events and their fulfillment in Scripture, there is a parenthetical comment on the truthfulness of his witness to the flow of blood and water: The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe (v. 35). This could be John's own statement of the trustworthiness of his testimony, but it is not like the other comments he has added to his account (for example, 2:22; 6:64, 71; 12:6, 16, 33; 18:9, 32; cf. Schnackenburg 1982:291). Instead, it reads very much like the testimony of the later disciples at the end of the Gospel: "This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true" (21:24). Possibly, then, verse 35 was added by John's disciples to underscore his witness to the death of Jesus. They might have added this because there were members of the community at a later stage, as reflected in the letters, moving in a Gnostic, or proto-Gnostic direction. Much of the argument against these views centered on the nature and significance of Jesus' death (cf. Whitacre 1982:121-51). Since these false teachers claimed to be true to the Johannine tradition, this note could have been added, perhaps originally only in the margin, "underlining the key text of the Gospel that belies this claim by the later opponents" (Whitacre 1982:213 n. 217).Joseph and Nicodemus Bury Jesus' Body (19:38-42) John's account of the burial may continue to develop the theme of Jesus' royal identity. The large amount of spice used (v. 39) obviously expresses their love for Jesus, as had the extravagance of Mary's gesture earlier (12:3). Such excessive amounts of spice were a feature of at least some royal funerals (2 Chron 16:14; Josephus Antiquities of the Jews 17.199). Further associations with royalty may be implied from the fact that Joseph's tomb is a garden tomb (v. 41), since the kings of Judah were buried in garden tombs (2 Kings 21:18, 26), including King David (Neh 3:16 LXX; cf. Brown 1994:2:1270). Plenty of people besides kings had extravagant funerals and were buried in garden tombs, but given all the emphasis in the Passion account on Jesus as king, such details may continue the theme here at the burial.

The fact that it is a new tomb is emphasized by John (v. 41). Some think John's point is that Jesus would not be brought into contact with corruption (Westcott 1908:2:324), or that there would be no question of mistaken identity when the tomb was empty (Chrysostom In John 85.4; Brown 1970:959). John may have been conscious of these notions, but it would seem the main point is simply that a new tomb is a token of appropriate honor given to a king. It may also tie in with the theme of the creation of the new community: Jesus has reordered the lives of his mother and the Beloved Disciple (vv. 26-27), in keeping with the new order of relationships of those who are united to him (cf. Mt 12:46-50 par. Mk 3:31-35 par. Lk 8:19-21). Jesus has no ancestral tomb but rather has begun a new family of those born from above who will never die (11:26).

Indeed, in this story we see this family gaining two new members. For the two men who bury Jesus had not publicly associated with him before. Joseph of Arimathea was indeed a disciple, but he was so secretly because he feared the Jews (v. 38). And Nicodemus, though not actually called a "disciple," nevertheless had visited Jesus at night (v. 39) and had affirmed at that time that Jesus was a teacher come from God (3:2). Thus, these are two of the people referred to earlier, who were secret believers, "for they loved praise from men more than praise from God" (12:42-43). Now, at Jesus' death, they are no longer under this condemnation; they have passed from hiding in the darkness to coming into the light.

From the Synoptics we learn that Joseph was a wealthy member of the Sanhedrin who was looking for the coming of the kingdom and who had not consented to the Sanhedrin's condemnation of Jesus (Mt 27:57; Mk 15:43; Lk 23:50-51). Nicodemus, who is not mentioned in the Synoptics, was also a member of the Sanhedrin (Jn 3:1) and, presumably, was wealthy, given the amount of spice he provides for Jesus' burial (v. 39). John A. T. Robinson considers Nicodemus to be from a well-established family of Jerusalem, while Joseph is "the nouveau riche country cousin with his brand-new tomb [cf. v. 41; Mt 27:60], which may suggest the lack of an established family mausoleum in the city" (1985:287). In any case, these are both men of power, privilege and wealth. Although Joseph, and presumably Nicodemus, had dissented from the vote, as members of the Sanhedrin they were indeed those who pierced Jesus and now they are looking upon him and mourning (see comment on v. 37). Jesus has been lifted up and is now beginning to draw all people to himself (12:32), beginning with these hidden disciples, who were members of the very group that insisted on Jesus' death.

It is ironic that these two men come out of hiding and clearly associate themselves with Jesus at his death, since they would have thought his movement had come to an end. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose. This action makes the extent of their dissent evident to their fellow Jewish leaders. Their request for the body was also a very courageous act. The Romans would often leave the body on the cross for days, though they might allow the family to take down the body for burial. They would not do this, however, in the case of treason (Beasley-Murray 1987:358). Thus, Joseph had no claims on the body and, depending on how Pilate viewed the case, would have been putting himself in considerable danger. But Pilate had clearly said three times that Jesus was innocent, which may account for his allowing Joseph to take the body. In addition, by allowing Jesus to have a decent burial Pilate would be able to further annoy the Jewish leadership.

The men did not have time to give Jesus a proper burial, which would include washing the body, anointing it with oil and then clothing and wrapping it (Brown 1994:2:1261). Instead, the seventy-five pounds of spices, which were probably in granular or powder form, could be packed under and around the body and in the strips of linen with which they wrapped the body. This would offset the smell of decay and help preserve the body until it could be properly attended to after the sabbath (v. 42; Robinson 1985:282-83). The meaning of the word for strips of linen (othoniois) is unclear. There does not seem to be evidence that Jews wrapped corpses in strips, as Egyptian mummies were wrapped (Brown 1994:2:1265), and the Synoptics say a single sheet was the main covering (Mt 27:59 par. Mk 15:46 par. Lk 23:53). Upon his being raised from the dead, Lazarus came out with "his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face" (11:44), but the word for "strips of linen" (keiria) in that verse is not the same word used here (othonion). Though the plural is used here, it may refer to a single sheet (cf. Brown 1994:2:1265) or be used generically for "grave clothes" (Robinson 1985:291). Thus, it is not clear how exactly they wrapped the body.The action taken by Joseph and Nicodemus signals a change in their own discipleship as they clearly break with the rest of the Jewish leadership. By handling the body they have made themselves ritually unclean and are thus disqualified from participating in the feast. According to some accounts of the dating (see comment on 18:28; 19:14), this means they would miss the Passover itself, in which case Christ has replaced the Passover for them in keeping with John's focus on Jesus as the Lamb of God and the fulfillment of the Jewish feasts in general.

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/John/Enemies-Friends-Attend-Jesus

[Molly]

Matthew 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.


What is the treasure hidden in the field? The treasure is us!


Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;
Ex 19:5


But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
1 Peter 2:9


Deuteronomy 26:18 And the LORD has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands.


Isaiah 43:21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.


Malachi 3:17 "They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him.



To save us, his treasured possession, he sold all he had [gave his life] and bought [saved] the whole world [the whole field]!



Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.


Matthew 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,




...and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.


Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 

Heb 12:1,2


Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
--John 15:13

[Lazarus Short]

Sometimes, maybe often, it is a matter more of readjusting your outlook than accepting some proof as true.  You must overcome the cognitive dissonance which so often rises up against any new idea.  That happened to me on learning the kingdom identity message, and I went back and forth from acceptance to rejection several times before I got my outlook set in the new paradigm.  For the UR message, it was the same story, and even for Christianity, as I am a former atheist. 

In the end, these difficulties can be as psychological [or is that psycho-illogical?] as intellectual.

[legoman]

I've been following this website for years. Still, I disappeared... Still I was coming back some times... And I think I finally nailed the problem that bothers me.

I think that what I'm worried is that I feel that God is very good, he loves everyone... And I feel it in my heart that he will save all people.

However, I lack absolute, smoking gun 100% scriptural proof that he's indeed savior of everyone.

I mean - all quotes about the narrow path, all quotes about being chosen, all quotes about being a strict follower... The whole  Bible screams about excluding, and not including.

What about you?

For me it is quite simple now.  Mostly it is about identifying absolute vs relative/temporary.

There are many verses that say all will be saved.
There are also verses like you pointed out that talk about few on the narrow path, few being chosen, you must follow the commands etc.

God will have all men to be saved is an absolute statement.

Few are chosen is relative - what are they chosen for?  When is this speaking of?  It is not speaking of being chosen for heaven while the rest are "chosen" for eternal suffering in hell.
Who will the chosen be 'ruling' over?  What will they be doing?
Few are on the narrow path now.  The rest will come later - there is a great harvest, but few workers.  That is what the chosen are for.  To bring in the harvest.

In the end we will ALL follow His commands strictly:  LOVE.

So there is no contradiction if you understand the absolute vs. relative meaning of the context.

[WhiteWings]

Exactly lego.
But that's the big picture.
ET usually only zooms in on a doom verse.

[shawn]

Sometimes, maybe often, it is a matter more of readjusting your outlook than accepting some proof as true.  You must overcome the cognitive dissonance which so often rises up against any new idea.  That happened to me on learning the kingdom identity message, and I went back and forth from acceptance to rejection several times before I got my outlook set in the new paradigm.  For the UR message, it was the same story, and even for Christianity, as I am a former atheist. 

In the end, these difficulties can be as psychological [or is that psycho-illogical?] as intellectual.

I often tell addicts this...it's my job to create cognitive disequilibruim.  I will present information that will go against previously held beliefs which are highly guarded.  That will create pain.  It will create anxiety.

When I first started truly exploring UR...I was so afraid I would go to hell for my exploration of such beliefs.  I didn't want to be a heretic.  I didn't want to believe something that wasn't Biblical.  It created MUCH anxiety.  It took about 2 years of searching before I accepted UR as truth.  I believe it was a spiritual, psychological and intellectual battle.

[Lazarus Short]

I often tell addicts this...it's my job to create cognitive disequilibruim.  I will present information that will go against previously held beliefs which are highly guarded.  That will create pain.  It will create anxiety.

When I first started truly exploring UR...I was so afraid I would go to hell for my exploration of such beliefs.  I didn't want to be a heretic.  I didn't want to believe something that wasn't Biblical.  It created MUCH anxiety.  It took about 2 years of searching before I accepted UR as truth.  I believe it was a spiritual, psychological and intellectual battle.

Yes, just so!  Your phrase "...previously held beliefs what are highly guarded."  makes me think of the strongholds spoken of in the Bible.  I'm not much of a chapter-and-verse person, but I get the idea.  Let's see, I'll look in my Strong's [pun intended] - ah, there it is, II Corinthians 10:4

...for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds...  [KJV]

[shawn]

I often tell addicts this...it's my job to create cognitive disequilibruim.  I will present information that will go against previously held beliefs which are highly guarded.  That will create pain.  It will create anxiety.

When I first started truly exploring UR...I was so afraid I would go to hell for my exploration of such beliefs.  I didn't want to be a heretic.  I didn't want to believe something that wasn't Biblical.  It created MUCH anxiety.  It took about 2 years of searching before I accepted UR as truth.  I believe it was a spiritual, psychological and intellectual battle.

Yes, just so!  Your phrase "...previously held beliefs what are highly guarded."  makes me think of the strongholds spoken of in the Bible.  I'm not much of a chapter-and-verse person, but I get the idea.  Let's see, I'll look in my Strong's [pun intended] - ah, there it is, II Corinthians 10:4

...for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds...  [KJV]

Terrific verse for this particular discussion.  For addiction I believe the main weapon of warfare is rigorous honesty.  For me with ET, it was faith in what was placed in my heart...not my mind.

[ded2daworld]

Right on Shawn.
Once one knows the tremendous all consuming love of God, the very thought of this Loving God eternally torturing someone is beyond comprehension. - especially since any that come to Christ during their mortal life only do so because they were specifically called by Christ and it was nothing that they did or said on their own that had God choose them.

[shawn]

Right on Shawn.
Once one knows the tremendous all consuming love of God, the very thought of this Loving God eternally torturing someone is beyond comprehension. - especially since any that come to Christ during their mortal life only do so because they were specifically called by Christ and it was nothing that they did or said on their own that had God choose them.

Amen!

[eaglesway]

A false gospel. An abomination that makes desolate. A destroyer exalted as a savior. An image that speaks lies, misrepresenting the divine nature fo God. An idol chiseled out of the wisdom of man, earthy, sensual, demonic.........    I don't know that god.

[Lazarus Short]

Shawn, remember what Kosh Naranek said in B5:  The truth points to itself.

[micah7:9]

Simply because God said it, and HE cannot lie. Tit 1:2  in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;


1Ti 4:10  for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men--especially of those believing

Isa 55:10  For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
Isa 55:11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.