Heaven

[jabcat]

*Disclaimer/definition - I know God is here with us.  By "where God is", I mean where He ultimately abides (His "Headquarters") with Jesus at His right hand - and where we will ultimately be with Him when He is All in All.
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I grew up believing heaven was a place somewhere thousands/millions of miles away, way up in the sky somewhere.  Somewhere beyond the stars.

Some say heaven just means "in high places", spiritual places.  But I think there must be place (for lack of a better word) where God actually dwells.

I read something recently that suggested the first heaven is getting saved, the second heaven is being filled with the Spirit, and the third heaven is where God literally is.  The place where Paul was caught up into, that was so awesome (and meant to be beyond our current grasp?) he wasn't allowed (or able) to describe. 

I think there must be a place "where God is", but I wonder now if it's really around here, but in a realm we're unable to currently access.  Sort of that whole "God is not bound by time or space" thing - He's not a million miles away somewhere, but just "through a portal" that is currently [in these mortal bodies] out of our reach.

Quick mention.  I know some believe in soul sleep, so that's acknowledged.  But for those that don't, doesn't it seem no one has yet gone to "where God is", as the scriptures say only Jesus has ascended to that place?  (Then where was Paul, and could the 3rd heaven really be that place where God is?)

Which brings me to Part 2 - doesn't it seem there's a "holding place between here and there", maybe what Jesus (and elsewhere in scriptures) calls Paradise?

So,

1) what do you think heaven is? 
2) Anyone but Jesus ever ascended there? 
3) Do you believe there's an intermediate holding place, or other options, such as judgment is immediate or at least soon for everyone and now since the cross, resurrection, and ascension, others have and are ascending there now?

For something so important to every human being, it seems a bit of a mystery...

[Deena]

Jab, I am reading, or trying my best to read, NH Wright's Surprised by Hope and he argues that there is a between place where there is peace and life after death and that it is there that we await the resurrection of the body. He believes that as Christ had a glorified body in which he appeared to the disciples, upon the resurrection (ours) we will have a kind of glorified physicality unlike anything we can understand. Wright says that is why people did not immediately recognize Jesus. Wright's theory is "life, after life, after death", like a three step process. Its all a bit over my head but you smart kids might get it.

[jabcat]

Thanks Deena.  Wow, I really am not all that familiar with Wright, but I really like what he has to say in this interview;


"At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, "Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven." It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.

Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will "awake," be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: "God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves." That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html#ixzz208gXruMY

[WhiteWings]

Jab, I am reading, or trying my best to read, NH Wright's Surprised by Hope

A printed version can be bought at Amazon, a free electronic version can be downloaded here

[reFORMer]

Heaven is a little oftener plural rather than singular.

The phrase, "Go to heaven" never occurs in relation to anything in the entire Bible.

It seems there's only one place in Scripture defining how many "heavens" there are.  In 2 Corinthians 12^1-4 it speaks of being "caught up into the third heaven."  Whether or not this is the the same as "caught up into paradise" the word doesn't specify.  Because of things I've experienced I consider the three heavens to correspond to our existence in three dimensions, body, soul, and spirit.  The Concordant Literal crowd teach the three are subsequent conditions or arrangements of authorities in time.  I wish I had their article explaining it.  Something of it was shared here several years back by Tony.

[WhiteWings]

Imo the first heaven is the sky/clouds/atmosphere.
Second heaven is the rest of the universe.
Third heaven is, to use Jabcat's words, the HQ of God and the angles.

The Jewish Kabbala writes about seven heaven. Five of which are levels/ranks in heaven itself. God and the most holy live in the 7th layer.
There is a Dutch saying "Be in the 7th heaven" meaning "extremly happy".
Ancient poets used the term 7th, 9th, 11th and even 13th heaven.
Nothing beyond the 3rd heaven, seems to have any Biblical support. (unless very hidden)

1st heaven: Gen 1:1
2nd heaven: Gen 1:14
3rd heaven: 2Cor 12:2

[jabcat]

Thanks Deena.  Wow, I really am not all that familiar with Wright, but I really like what he has to say in this interview;


"At no point do the resurrection narratives in the four Gospels say, "Jesus has been raised, therefore we are all going to heaven." It says that Christ is coming here, to join together the heavens and the Earth in an act of new creation.

Jesus' resurrection marks the beginning of a restoration that he will complete upon his return. Part of this will be the resurrection of all the dead, who will "awake," be embodied and participate in the renewal. John Polkinghorne, a physicist and a priest, has put it this way: "God will download our software onto his hardware until the time he gives us new hardware to run the software again for ourselves." That gets to two things nicely: that the period after death is a period when we are in God's presence but not active in our own bodies, and also that the more important transformation will be when we are again embodied and administering Christ's kingdom."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1710844,00.html#ixzz208gXruMY

Thanks for the input guys, it's an interesting subject for me.

Looked at NTWright a little more.  He says the above, then says he's not a universalist, believes in eternal torment (I really dislike the term "universalist".  I think it generally carries with it a stigma of "God doesn't care, there's no judgment, all roads are OK", etc.  Blah.)  Anyway, although he believes in a literal hell, he appears to believe "very few" will actually go there, sort of those who have rejected God to some point of "no return/nothing in them but evil" so to speak.   He also says Americans are consumed/fascinated/focused on hell.    An interesting fellow, and I like his thoughts on "heaven".   Maybe he'll re-think his hell stuff.

[WhiteWings]

So a bit like Rob Bell. Denying being an UR but very often speaking like one.
"Anyway, although he believes in a literal hell, he appears to believe "very few" will actually go there" That sounds very much like a quote from the former pope.

[WhiteWings]

believes in eternal torment

The fire and brimstone version? Or the being sad to be seperated from God for ever type?

[jabcat]

Will post some hell stuff next.  I really like this guy's heaven view. 

quoting NT Wright -  'Going to heaven when you die' is not held out in the New Testament as the main goal. The main goal is to be bodily raised into the transformed, glorious likeness of Jesus Christ. If we want to speak of 'going to heaven when we die', we should be clear that this represents the first, and far less important, stage of a two-stage process. That is why it is also appropriate to use the ancient word 'paradise' to describe the same thing.

In the New Testament every single Christian is referred to as a 'saint', including the muddled and sinful ones to whom Paul writes his letters. The background to early Christian thought about the church includes the Dead Sea Scrolls; and there we find the members of the Qumran sect referred to as 'the holy ones'. They are designated thus, not simply because they are living a holy life in the present, though it is hoped that they will do that as well, but because by joining the sect — in the Christian's case, by getting baptized and confessing Jesus as the risen Lord — they have left the realm of darkness and entered the kingdom of light (Colossians 1.12-14).

This means that the New Testament language about the bodily death of Christians, and what happens to them thereafter, makes no distinction whatever in this respect between those who have attained significant holiness or Christlikeness in the present and those who haven't. 'My desire', says Paul in Philippians 1.22, 'is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.' He doesn't for a moment imply that this 'being with Christ' is something which he will experience but which the Philippians, like Newman's Gerontius, will find terrifying and want to postpone. His state (being with Christ) will indeed be exalted, but it will be no different, no more exalted, than that of every single Christian after death. He will not be, in that sense, a 'saint', differentiated from mere 'souls' who wait in another place or state.

[jabcat]

excerpts from http://benirwin.wordpress.com/2011/04/14/n-t-wright-on-hell/

NT Wright is one of Bell's "heros".  They both reject what Wright refers to as "childish depictions of hell" — i.e. hell as a literal "lake of fire" ..

They believe much in the NT  has to be interpreted in light of its immediate context.

quoting Ben Irwin - "When Jesus was warning his hearers about Gehenna, he was not, as a general rule, telling them that unless they repented in this life they would burn in the next one. As with God's kingdom, so with its opposite: it is on earth that things matter, not somewhere else.

His message to his contemporaries was... unless they tuned back from their hopeless and rebellious dreams of establishing God's kingdom in their own terms,  Rome would turn Jerusalem into a hideous, stinking extension of its own smoldering rubbish heap.

When Jesus said, "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish," this is the primary meaning he had in mind...

Jesus didn't say very much about the future life; he was, after all, primarily concerned to announce that God's kingdom was coming "on earth as in heaven."

What was it that first drew people to the Christian faith? Was it the threat of judgment? Or something else? In the book of Acts, how many times did the apostles use hell in their proclamation to outsiders? Well, N.T. Wright has answered the last one, and it was zero."  end quote 

[Deena]

You all have hit on why I said im trying to understand Wright. The first half of the book asserts that God redeems ALL of creation, but then allows for hell for those who are truly wicked. I loved this book up till this point. Personally, i believe the first "life after death" before the ressurection to answer many questions, but then how could he assert there is a "hell" that will be very real for some. Most of Wright's message is "God all in all" but the hell thing struck me like a speedbump. Im sure i amsimply misunderstanding. Feel free to bring clarity. I do think he is on to something. By the way, Richard Rhor said he believes the next great move of God will be ecumenical without factious boundaries. Is this not so? Are we at tentmaker not a testament to it? Oh, Jesus come.

[jabcat]

(shaking head)  Yeah, it's frustating, isn't it?  As with so many, there are so many good, encouraging messages - uplifting!  Then.....here's hell.

I don't think I can bring any more clarity than this;  most really believe the scriptures teach something called "hell".  Even if they're able to see other things - God's judgments leading to righteousness, His kingdom increasing, etc., etc...  His mercy and forgiveness.  Still, if the church and its popular translations say there's a "hell", then you gotta do something with it, right?  The hard-liners stick it to ya.  Folks like Bell, Wright, etc., who see all these other characteristics of God that don't seem to line up with the traditional view of hell, seem to find other ways to try and deal with it.  Maybe it's even their own internal struggle they don't really know what to do with.  So it becomes "separation", or "only here on earth", or "you choose it yourself", or "only an incorrugible 2 or 3% go there"...  Maybe with someone like Bell and Wright, we can appreciate what they have to say for the most part, the light they've been given to share, and sort of "overlook" the hell parts to an extent.  It's my guess they just don't really know what to do with it, so they "make the best of it".   We're probably all like that to varying degrees?   :2c:

[WhiteWings]

In the book of Acts, how many times did the apostles use hell in their proclamation to outsiders? Well, N.T. Wright has answered the last one, and it was zero."  end quote

A very telling quote imo.
Or was it assumed the same people already recieved other letters/books ?

[WhiteWings]

You all have hit on why I said im trying to understand Wright. The first half of the book asserts that God redeems ALL of creation, but then allows for hell for those who are truly wicked.

I think that's Biblical teaching.
Saints get resurrected first. --> Joy
Sheeps get resurrected --> Joy
Goats get resurrected --> LoF

Elsewere Wright writes the torture pit view is nonsense.
So instead literal fire and brimstone hell preacher that believes 95% end in hell, Wright teaches a much smaller percentage of humanity ending in a much less severe hell.
(I would not suprised the next quote from Jabacat is about limited duration)