The language(s) of Babel

[anna274]

Hi WW:  I just very quickly read your very long post... I don't have time right now to print it as I had agreed to help another tenant with some cleaning duties at 2 p.m. (Yes, I'm running a bit late)

I had scheduled this morning 8 a.m. -1:00 p.m.to gather material on "one language"... I did find a website that I may check again later today.

Thanks, God Bless, anna

[WhiteWings]

Summary: Genesis 11 is a flashback of something that happend before/during Genesis 10.

According to some skeptics, Genesis 10 verses 5, 20, and 31 contradict what is stated in Genesis 11:1. Supposedly, since Moses recorded that the descendents of Shem, Ham, and Japheth spoke different languages in Genesis 10, and yet he indicated that "the whole earth had one language and one speech" in Genesis 11:1, then a discrepancy exists. Obviously, before the dispersion of man at Babel, the whole Earth could not have both many languages and only one language at the same time.

The explanation to this "problem" is that the events recorded in Genesis 10-11 were not written chronologically. Genesis 10 is more of an overview, while Genesis 11 speaks of one event within Genesis 10. Some of the things recorded in chapter 10 occurred before the tower of Babel, while others occurred sometime later. The simple fact is, Bible writers did not always record information in a strictly chronological sequence (and they never claimed to do such). Genesis 2:5-25 does not pick up where chapter 1 left off; rather it provides more detailed information about some of the events mentioned in chapter one. Several of the events in Genesis 38 involving Judah and Tamar occurred while the things recorded in chapter 39 and following took place. Similar to a teacher who is telling her class a story and inserts information into it about something the main character did in the past or will do in the future, Moses "jumps" ahead of himself at times by inserting parenthetical material like that found in Genesis 10.

Aside from the languages mentioned in Genesis 10, there is another "clue" in the text that reveals the events recorded in chapter 11 occurred before the descendents of Noah began speaking different languages and spreading throughout the Earth. In 10:25, it mentions a man named Peleg (meaning "division") who received such a name because "in his days the earth was divided." This is a clear reference to the confusion of languages at the tower of Babel described in chapter 11. The "Earth" (i.e., people; cf. 11:1) divided when God confused the languages (11:7-8). Thus, the division in Peleg's day is linked contextually to the linguistic segregation at Babel (Genesis 11:1-9).

When Genesis 10 and 11 are read with the understanding that not all events are recorded chronologically, one clearly sees how the events revealed in these chapters are entwined tightly with one another—so tightly in fact that those who seek contradictions are doomed to fail. Linguistically speaking, there was no pre-Babel confusion; only one language was in existence (Genesis 11:1).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=760

[WhiteWings]

The charge has been made that there is a contradiction in Genesis 10–11. The accusation is that if people had already spread around the world (as recorded in Genesis 10), fulfilling God's command, why was mankind judged with the confusion of languages as recorded in Genesis 11? This is actually an easy "contradiction" to clear up.
Genesis 10, often called "the Table of Nations," traces the origins of nations and people groups as they dispersed around the world after the Flood. It is a historical narrative of the descendants of Noah's three sons. This chapter concludes with this statement:
<blockquote>These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the Flood" (Genesis 10:32).</blockquote> After the descendants of each of the sons of Noah are mentioned, the text says that they were dispersed "according to their families, according to their languages" (Genesis 10:5, 20, 31). So, if Noah and his sons all spoke the same language, where did all of these other languages come from? Genesis 11 gives us the answer.
These groups of people did not willingly and obediently separate to fill the earth. Rather, we learn in Genesis 11:1–9 why these families separated from each other and how it came to be that there were so many languages in the world.
There is no contradiction here; Moses merely put the effect before the cause. Genesis 10 gives an overview, and then Genesis 11 fills in the details. You often find the same technique in other history books. One chapter might contain an overview of World War I—along with a list of major events. But the very next chapter might detail what the world was like in the years before the war and what events led up to it.
There may also be another reason why the order of these two events is switched. Keith Krell explains:
<blockquote>The actual outworking of the genealogies of Genesis 10 occurs after the events at the Tower of Babel (cf. 11:1 with 10:5, 20, 31). This interspersal of narrative (11:1–9) separates the two genealogies of Shem (10:21–31; 11:10–26), paving the way for the particular linkage between the Terah (Abraham) clan and the Shemite lineage (11:27). The story of the tower also looks ahead by anticipating the role that Abram (12:1–3) will play in restoring the blessing to the dispersed nations. By placing the Tower of Babel incident just prior to the stories of Abram and his descendants, the biblical writer is suggesting, in the first place, that post-flood humanity is as wicked as pre-flood humanity. Rather than sending something as devastating as a flood to annihilate mankind, however, God now places His hope in a covenant with Abraham as a powerful solution to humanity's sinfulness. This problem (Genesis 11) and solution (Genesis 12) are brought into immediate juxtaposition, and the forcefulness of this structural move would have been lost had Genesis 10 intervened between the two.</blockquote>

[lomarah]

That's what I figured. :)

[anna274]

Hi WW:

well I had to force myself to stop reading your many very, very helpful posts so that I will get my thanks to you today.   I will, of course, be printing all of them for use in ALL my ongoing studies. 

It was fun accessing TM forum and the first post I saw was one of yours... Thought to myself... "and a good morning to you, too"... well I guess it's afternoon to you, isn't it? 

It was good to learn that all the books, chapters, etc., are not necessarily in chronological order.  And I think the overview issue could be applied to Gen 1:2-31;  Gen 1:1 tells us that God created the heaven and earth and the rest of the chapter gives us the details... and other chapters, etc. more to study, ponder...

Again and again thank you. God bless, anna

[Molly]

8 And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.

10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

--Gen 10

Noah>Ham>Cush>Nimrod

We see Nimrod appearing in Gen 10, the great grandson of Noah through Ham.  It is Nimrod who is associated with the founding of Babylon.

This is a continuation of two world views which we see beginning with Cain and Abel--   the city and empire builders versus the shepherd kings who will be set apart in future generations through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

As we see in modern times, a city or an Empire does not require that all come from common backgrounds and speak the same language.  But they do require centralized control based on man-centric power at all levels of government, in a hierarchy where a man [or small group of men] stands at the top. 

As such, Nimrod was the first King of the world.

[lomarah]

Poor Nimrod... what were his parents thinking?

[Molly]

Nimrod was a gibbor--a mighty one--some say a continuation of the giants [nephilim] that were a problem before the flood.

We do see throughout human history--man seeking to build empires, while God sets apart.  Man unites, God divides, bringing us to this very day.

[WhiteWings]

Poor Nimrod... what were his parents thinking?

Better obey or he will slay.

[lomarah]

Poor Nimrod... what were his parents thinking?

Better obey or he will slay.

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Poor Nimrod... what were his parents thinking?

Better obey or he will slay.

:thumbsup:

Since you both seem to understand that exchange, could someone explain to me what it means?  :)

[WhiteWings]

It means his parents thought better always agree with Nimrod or else we will end up as thousands of his enemies.

[lomarah]

WW sent me a link to Rhyming Bible Stories that I downloaded onto my Kindle. I was reading this one to my daughter last night...

The Tower of Babel

Nimrod was a mighty king
A wicked sinner too,
Corrupting others when he could
It wasn't hard to do.

He had some ancient special clothes
That kept him safe and sound,
They helped him conquer many lands
Those known and those unfound.

He said he was a god himself
And made a golden throne
Sat haughtily upon the seat
All nations were his own!

When all were vanquished on the earth
He looked into the sky
Thought, "I'll rebel against Ha-Shem
I can be just as high."

"I'll build a tower to reach Him
I'll get the builders round
Not one or two or even twelve
But thousands will be found."

Six hundred thousand came along
It really was a lot.
But don't forget they spoke one tongue
Polyglot they were not!

Some said, "We'll wage a war with God."
While others said, "No no!"
They sought to set their idols up
For worship from below.

A third lot plotted evil
So terrible and great
I dare not tell you what it was
In case I share their fate.

The building took so very long
the tower grew very high
to get the bricks there took all year
they were so near the sky!

Builders dizzied with the height
Working ever faster
No one cared if people died
Bricks falling was disaster!

Ha-Shem had seventy angels near
He told them what to do.
"Nations will speak differently."
They whispered as they flew.

None understood the other's speech
Or language, not at all
One passed some mortar, not a brick
Was hit and fell free-fall!

Brick to brick, and for all time
A symbol and a fable,
Misunderstanding, impious pride
The senseless Tower of Babel.

:rolllol:

(Needless to say I won't be reading those "Bible" stories anymore... LOL)

[WhiteWings]

Nimrod was a gibbor--a mighty one--some say a continuation of the giants [nephilim] that were a problem before the flood.

We do see throughout human history--man seeking to build empires, while God sets apart.  Man unites, God divides, bringing us to this very day.

Yester day is say a verse with the words: son(s) of man/god
It was in close proximity of the verses we are discussing but I'm unable to locate them now.
Anyway I just want to say that "son of" very often is an idiom meaning considered to be or looks like.
Just like Jesus was a Son of man (but actually of God) and was considered to be the Son of Joseph.
Link
The problem obviously is to distinguish between a real son an a idiomatic son.