Upper room

[WhiteWings]

(Mark 14:15) And he himself will show you a large upper room spread out ready. Prepare ye for us there.


"interior chamber" "vestibule" "upper story" - all can refer to the parts of a woman's womb - or a house

This one is the speciallity of Cardinal I think.

Is Mark a hidden reference to a womb? For example was Christianity born in/from that room?

[Cardinal]

Yes, I see it that way. If I can ever get time apart from trials and/or work, I have trying for months to get time to study out something that "came" to me one day regarding some of this.

[Molly]

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth.  John 16:13



James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.


The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and we are given birth through the word of truth, birthed from above [born-again], born from the upper room,

born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.  John 1


2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost...

Acts 2

[WhiteWings]

birthed from above [born-again], born from the upper room, born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So there are 3 upper rooms?
Building, womb and a spiritual upper room?

[Molly]

That word for upper room, anogeon, is made up of two words which could literally mean 'above the world'  or 'above the earth.'

G507

anō
an'-o
Adverb from G473; upward or on the top: - above, brim, high, up.


AND

G1093

gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.


I have been thinking on that other thread that it is the Holy Spirit that gives birth to us,  so it is interesting that the disciples are born in the upper room,  'above the earth.'   Born again, gennao anothen,  means 'born from above.'

[WhiteWings]

So Nicodemeus was right after all. He had to get out of the upper room again. :laughing7:

[Cardinal]

Exactly.....that's why Jesus didn't correct him about going back into his mother's womb. We do go back into our mother's womb, only it's the womb of the morning/daystar's.

[WhiteWings]

To be born from a womb/room means getting out of that place. But before you can you have to be inside.

But the rebirth isn't about an extra person but a new person. So the old person has to die first.
Does seems to indicate a close relationship between the grave and the womb.

[Molly]

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

--Rom 6:3

[Molly]

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

--John 3

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Molly]

Why did Jesus say this to Nicodemus?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
--John 3


What should Nicodemus have known as a Pharisee?

[WhiteWings]

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

--Rom 6:3

I know that verse. I was thinking about how it relates to real physical death.

[WhiteWings]

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

--John 3

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I think water isn't about baptism but about the water in the womb. (don't know the English word for it)

[WhiteWings]

Why did Jesus say this to Nicodemus?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
--John 3


What should Nicodemus have known as a Pharisee?

John the Baptist didn't introduce baptism. It was an old custom*
Obviously the baptism had symbolism. Symbolism that Nicodemus should have linked to Jesus' words.

*= Jesus was disappointed Nicodemus didn't know. Meaning it was not a new teaching of Jesus. Just repeating something (that should be) well known

[Molly]

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

--Rom 6:3

I know that verse. I was thinking about how it relates to real physical death.

It has to do with the real physical death of Jesus, not us.


He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

--1 Thess 5:10

[Molly]

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

--John 3

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I think water isn't about baptism but about the water in the womb. (don't know the English word for it)

amniotic fluid.

The water breaks.  And, then the baby is born.

Water in this case symbolizes death.  We go under the water into the death of Christ.


9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

--Mark 1


"Jordan"

Yarden

From this root:

H3381
ירד
yârad
yaw-rad'
A primitive root; to descend (literally to go downwards; or conventionally to a lower region, as the shore, a boundary, the enemy, etc.; or figuratively to fall); causatively to bring down (in all the above applications): -  X abundantly, bring down, carry down, cast down, (cause to) come (-ing) down, fall (down), get down, go (-ing) down (-ward), hang down, X indeed, let down, light (down), put down (off), (cause to, let) run down, sink, subdue, take down.

[Molly]

Why did Jesus say this to Nicodemus?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
--John 3


What should Nicodemus have known as a Pharisee?

John the Baptist didn't introduce baptism. It was an old custom*
Obviously the baptism had symbolism. Symbolism that Nicodemus should have linked to Jesus' words.

*= Jesus was disappointed Nicodemus didn't know. Meaning it was not a new teaching of Jesus. Just repeating something (that should be) well known

I was thinking more of something from our Bible that Nicodemus should have known being a teacher of scripture---rather than some extrabiblical custom.

[WhiteWings]

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

--John 3

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I think water isn't about baptism but about the water in the womb. (don't know the English word for it)

amniotic fluid.

Direct translation from Dutch would be fruit-water.....

[WhiteWings]

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

--John 3

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I think water isn't about baptism but about the water in the womb. (don't know the English word for it)

amniotic fluid.

The water breaks.  And, then the baby is born.

Water in this case symbolizes death.  We go under the water into the death of Christ.

I fully realize the symbolism of baptism in water.
The point is that every person comes from amniotic fluid. But a tiny majority from regular water. So is baptism in regular water required for salvation?

In other words a double meaning or just very different as usually assumed?

[WhiteWings]

Why did Jesus say this to Nicodemus?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
--John 3


What should Nicodemus have known as a Pharisee?

John the Baptist didn't introduce baptism. It was an old custom*
Obviously the baptism had symbolism. Symbolism that Nicodemus should have linked to Jesus' words.

*= Jesus was disappointed Nicodemus didn't know. Meaning it was not a new teaching of Jesus. Just repeating something (that should be) well known

I was thinking more of something from our Bible that Nicodemus should have known being a teacher of scripture---rather than some extrabiblical custom.

In that case you should be able to show OT verses pointing to baptism, upper room and likely many other things Jesus refered to.

AFAIK Jewish new year (and many other festivals) are not ordained by God. Or at least not written down in the OT.
But still Jesus takes 'advantage' of those feasts when mentioning 'nobody know the hour'.
And adding 'but the father' which refers to wedding tradition which isn't in the OT. But again Jesus takes advantage of the custom in His wedding parable/promise.
Unproveable but it can be argued God inspired certain customs.