All Saved?

[gkm]

Verses such as:"Having made known unto us the mystery of his 
will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him." Eph. 1:9,10.

and Col. 1:20 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

I am new here, and may have missed a discussion of this, but am interested in the opinions of others as to the final salvation of Satan and fallen angels, demons? If not, how are the above verses made inclusive wrt men  but not for "all things?"

Gary McNees gkmcnees@gmail.com

"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it" Thomas Jefferson

[CHB]

Hi,

Personally I think all things mean all things, whether they be physical or spiritual.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Jesus came to save the bad people. Not the good ones.
Good people don't need salvation. Good people didn't die in Adam.
I think there are zero good people but let's assume 5% are good people that don't need Jesus for eternal life.
That would make Jesus' suffering a waste of time (and pain). His death didn't double-save already saved people.

This verse is about contrast
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Bad Adam caused the death of 95% of humanity but good Jesus gave back life to the same 95%

That's my view. Of course there are counter arguments.
- Jesus was a human and didn't (need to) save Himself. That proves all is not 100%
- After death comes judgement so all pre Jesus people can't be part of all.
- All simply means all people that believe in Jesus.
- etc

[gkm]

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Jesus came to save the bad people. Not the good ones.
Good people don't need salvation. Good people didn't die in Adam.
I think there are zero good people but let's assume 5% are good people that don't need Jesus for eternal life.
That would make Jesus' suffering a waste of time (and pain). His death didn't double-save already saved people.

This verse is about contrast
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Bad Adam caused the death of 95% of humanity but good Jesus gave back life to the same 95%

That's my view. Of course there are counter arguments.
- Jesus was a human and didn't (need to) save Himself. That proves all is not 100%
- After death comes judgement so all pre Jesus people can't be part of all.
- All simply means all people that believe in Jesus.
- etc

WW, you seem to have missed my point. I am addressing the salvation of Satan and fallen angels. Most of us here agree that ALL humans will eventually be saved.

gkm

"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it" Thomas Jefferson

[jabcat]

I haven't been sure about this myself.  Strangely enough, I dreamed about this last night.  I dreamed that satan (and his angels) is the only thing to be truly destroyed (annihilated).  I don't know if that was just my mind working or something else.   :dontknow:

[WhiteWings]

Hummz, I guess that's one of those "it's bedtime" hints  :winkgrin:


I think the first thing to figure out is: Who or what is satan?

Several on this forum believe it's the human mind.

I think God doesn't destroy the sinner but prunes away the sin.
So if satan is an entity not being human then the next question is how evil is satan?
Only if he's 100% evil he's pruned away completly. -> No longer exists

[WhiteWings]

About the fallen angels.

(Matt 25:41) Then he will also say to those at the left hand, Depart from me, ye accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his agents.
(Rev 20:15) And if any man was found not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Matthew tells us the fire was created for the devil and his angels.
Revelation tells us humans are cast into that fire.

I think that's something very important to think about.
God who never makes mistakes and/or changes His mind casts humans into a fire that was not created for them.
God lost some of His perfection?
Or.... is WhiteWings one of the fallen angels.... :winkgrin:
Seriously God created something for 2 groups and casts in a third group. That's a change of mind. Unless that third group isn't another group at all.

A divided kingdom can not stand. All angels were part of God's kingdom. 1/3 is said to be fallen. Sounds kinda divided to me. How can God's perfect creation fall. Jesus was perfect and did not fall. So if the angels really fell is fell the right word?
In Job we read that satan stands before God and asks permission to test Job. It's just one verse but it sounds like satan answers to God. Would God punish satan for testing Job while He gave permission to do so.

Nite
:grave:

[Molly]

I haven't been sure about this myself.  Strangely enough, I dreamed about this last night.  I dreamed that satan (and his angels) is the only thing to be truly destroyed (annihilated).  I don't know if that was just my mind working or something else.   :dontknow:

:thumbsup:

Everyone else is written in the book of life--[Adam who was slain at the casting down of the cosmos.]--that is, human.

oops, nevermind. :winkgrin:


1 This is the book of the generations of Adam.

--Gen 5

[legoman]

Verses such as:"Having made known unto us the mystery of his 
will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him." Eph. 1:9,10.

and Col. 1:20 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

I am new here, and may have missed a discussion of this, but am interested in the opinions of others as to the final salvation of Satan and fallen angels, demons? If not, how are the above verses made inclusive wrt men  but not for "all things?"

Gary McNees gkmcnees@gmail.com

"Error of Opinion may be tolerated where Reason is left free to combat it" Thomas Jefferson

All things will be reconciled.  That does not mean all things will be 'saved'.

Who or what is Satan?  Whoever or whatever Satan is, will not be in its current form after all things have been reconciled.  Some translate Satan as simply 'adversity'.  There will be no adversity when all are reconciled.

What are 'fallen angels'?  Some believe angels are simply messengers - people.  Others believe they are spirit beings (ie. traditional angel-like beings).  Regardless, they too will be reconciled.

Jesus is the savior of all people, but all things will be reconciled.

JMHO.

[rodgertutt]

Hi legoman. Nice to see you again!
I left city-data to concentrate on posting a new snippet every day on 80 different forums.

Here is what I have in a document on Satan.

I believe that the reconciliation of Satan will be the greatest manifestation of God's grace in action among the celestials.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON
"The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.

Salvation is for angels also. 'All things were created by Him, and for Him' (Col. 1:16).
'For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He 'reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).

Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. 'The deceived and the deceiver are His' (Job 12:16). (end quote)

"God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed "the Adversary," is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title ("Adversary" or "Satan") necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace." (end quote)
Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.

"Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!" (end quote)
RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html

THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK
"Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.

'Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.' Psalm 145:9
In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love." (end quote)

AVITUS and BASIL, A GRECIAN (approx. 410 A.D.) together taught
"Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.
The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued. (end quote)

ERSKINE'S SKETCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.
"God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?

My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all." (end quote)

CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor
I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.

Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the lustre of the universe." (end quote)

Gregory of Nyssa (335-390)
What is the scope of St. Paul's dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.

In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.

As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself." (end quote)

[WhiteWings]

Hi legoman. Nice to see you again!
I left city-data to concentrate on posting a new snippet every day on 80 different forums.

80?

Are there so many on internet?  :laughing7:

[rodgertutt]

Hi legoman. Nice to see you again!
I left city-data to concentrate on posting a new snippet every day on 80 different forums.

80?

Are there so many on internet?  :laughing7:

Yes, there are 80.  I'm posting a different snippet on at least eighty forums every day, and I'm gradually adding more as I find them.
It keeps me very busy but I enjoy it immensely! :-)

According to the "views" count on each forum, many people are actually reading them.

[WhiteWings]

Mostly ET forums I assume?
I can hardly find 80 UR sites. Most don't have a forum.
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Websites.htm

[rodgertutt]

Mostly ET forums I assume?
I can hardly find 80 UR sites. Most don't have a forum.
http://home.online.nl/spamfree/Websites.htm

They are obviously UR-tolerant sites or they would have banned me by now.
I think that is an encouraging sign!  :laughing7:

BTW, thanks for the UR forum list link.

[WhiteWings]

They are not all forums. Most are just blogs/sites.
If you have UR blogs/sites/forums on your list that are not on mine please share them :thumbsup:

[ded2daworld]

It's a tough call. We know that the blood of Jesus takes away the sin of the world (all mankind) but that wouldn't include spiritual beings. On the other hand, Just as God has a plan of salvation for humans, I believe he has a plan for spiritual beings since all in heaven and earth will be reconciled. Just as the angels would like to know more about our salvation, we are naturally curious about theirs. You know the Lord doesn't tell us stuff that we don't need to know. Like little children, no matter what His plan is, some of us will have a tendency to say, "Not fair" the same way some do when they realize Hitler and Bin Laden will be reconciled.

[marie glen]

Verses such as:"Having made known unto us the mystery of his 
will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in him." Eph. 1:9,10.

and Col. 1:20 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Hi! I'm one who believes these verses mean eXactly what they seem to be saying "all things in heaven and upon earth" will be reconciled and restored.. a relating verse, to me, would be one I believe David wrote in one of his psalms when he was betrayed.. "you were my brother but.." or which made your betrayal that much more hurtful, which has been quoted as to prophesying about Judas who betrayed Jesus, but when I read it, my mind goes further and thinks of how Lucifer high angel betrayed the Father.. it speaks to me of the Father's sorrow concerning it.. and lingering love still.. but most of all "all things in heaven and earth reconciled to Him" :)