God, satan and the naked man.

[Beloved Servant]

Yes and no...hmmm...

...strict convictions from down in the Netherworld.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The napkin on his head being folded was a sign to the Jews. It was the custom of the day that if the Master left the table before finishing his meal, he would leave his napkin folded, signalling that he was going to come back. My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

*off topic*


John 20;
6 Simon Peter also, then, is coming, following him, and he entered into the tomb and he is beholding the swathings lying,
7 and the handkerchief which was on His head, not lying with the swathings, but folded up in one place apart.


This Scripture casts doubt on the Shroud of Turin.
For there are two separate cloths, not one, covering the Lord.

Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.

And being stoned.

It seems that the sudarium was first used before the dead body was taken down from the cross and discarded when it was buried.

This fits in with what we learn from John's gospel, which tells us that the sudarium was rolled up in a place by itself.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htmMany pictures of the shrout are fully body size. A sadarium is the size of a small towel.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Full_length_negatives_of_the_shroud_of_Turin.jpg/612px-Full_length_negatives_of_the_shroud_of_Turin.jpg)

Vague body countours... ok tiny possibility.
Beard and hair visible. Even seperate finger. Close to zero.

Jesus a beard and long hair? Don't think so.

[WhiteWings]

Yes and no...hmmm...

...strict convictions from down in the Netherworld.

Hu?

[Beloved Servant]

If the discovery is that the shroud is a photographic negative image than Jesus would be an albino with white hair and white beard.

[Beloved Servant]

It also seems convenient that his hand are covering his genitals instead of placed at his side or folded across his chest.

[Molly]

Jesus a beard and long hair? Don't think so.

On the other hand, trichos could mean beard,  and probably does.


14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; Rev 1

[Molly]

*off topic*


John 20;
6 Simon Peter also, then, is coming, following him, and he entered into the tomb and he is beholding the swathings lying,
7 and the handkerchief which was on His head, not lying with the swathings, but folded up in one place apart.


This Scripture casts doubt on the Shroud of Turin.
For there are two separate cloths, not one, covering the Lord.

Jewish tradition demands that if the face of a dead person was in any way disfigured, it should be covered with a cloth to avoid people seeing this unpleasant sight. This would certainly have been the case with Jesus, whose face was covered in blood from the injuries produced by the crown of thorns and swollen from falling and being struck.

And being stoned.

It seems that the sudarium was first used before the dead body was taken down from the cross and discarded when it was buried.

This fits in with what we learn from John's gospel, which tells us that the sudarium was rolled up in a place by itself.

http://www.shroud.com/guscin.htmMany pictures of the shrout are fully body size. A sadarium is the size of a small towel.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9b/Full_length_negatives_of_the_shroud_of_Turin.jpg/612px-Full_length_negatives_of_the_shroud_of_Turin.jpg)

Vague body countours... ok tiny possibility.
Beard and hair visible. Even seperate finger. Close to zero.

Jesus a beard and long hair? Don't think so.

That picture shows both front and back of the body--that's a 3 Dimensional image!

[Molly]

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7



the everlasting Father

[WhiteWings]

That picture shows both front and back of the body--that's a 3 Dimensional image!

And?

[Molly]

That picture shows both front and back of the body--that's a 3 Dimensional image!

And?

We know it's old, and older than any technique that could produce an image like that.

So what made it?

It's like it's burned into the cloth without the body actually touching the cloth.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I watched a recent documentary on it, and the scientists are unable to produce the same image with the same qualities. It's not paint. And pollen on it are from plants specific to the Holy Land. Odd to me that only one of them has ever been discovered. You would think if it was a hoax, there would have been many of them.

But, on the other hand, the RCC is notorious for hoarding supposed "Christian" artifacts, as well as manuscripts. I suppose their greed, once released, will prove to have been useful, when they are moved by the Spirit to release all they have killed to possess and hoard.

[Molly]

Seems like it would be impossible to hoax it.

Lasers weren't even invented until the 1960's.

And, of course, the shroud has a much older history than that, by a 1000 years or so.

[Beloved Servant]

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7

A 33-year-old man walking around with white hair and beard?
Isaiah tells us that His countenance was NOT something to behold. Isaiah 53:2.

[Molly]

9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7

A 33-year-old man walking around with white hair and beard?
Isaiah tells us that His countenance was NOT something to behold. Isaiah 53:2.

Not if it's a picture of the resurrected Christ, and it would be because that would be the process by which the image is burned into the shroud.

It would also explain why no one recognized him.

But we see the resurrected Christ here:


14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

[Molly]

In the garden of Eden we have
- God (walking around in the cool of the day) Gen 3:8
- Satan in the form of a serpent.
- Adam an naked man. Gen. 3:10

In the garden where Jesus was arrested we have:
- Jesus.
- Satan who entered Judas. Luke 22:3
- A naked man. Mark 14:51-52

The connection between Jesus and God is clear. Same for the serpent and Judas.
But what about the naked man?
What's the connection to Adam?
He fled. In a way Adam and Eve did a similar thing when hiding.
The naked man did were a linen cloth. (linen points to purity)
Why did that man left the cloth behind?
Is there a connection with Jesus leaving His linen clothes behind in the tomb? Luke 24:12

So my question is: What connections do you see? And above all: How are the relevant?

I think the naked man symbolizes our state without Christ, and he goes naked at the point where Jesus hands himself over to Satan.

Also, Levite priesthood goes naked.

This is the hour of darkness and the power of evil, also seen in the garden of Eden.

They did not have the covering yet in the garden, making them vulnerable to the Nachash.

But, God covers them [hides them, really] in animal skins before they leave.

Spirit is both internal and worn as a mantle.   The disciples already had the internal HS when they received the mantle at Pentecost.

So did Adam [have the internal HS].  But, both anointings are needed to signify King and Priest.

[Beloved Servant]

If the shroud is proof Christ is risen than faith is obsolete.

[Molly]

Proof?  No we don't need the shroud for proof.

It's just interesting, is all.

[Beloved Servant]

Millions and millions of people believe in the shroud.

[WhiteWings]

The shroud still requires a lot of belief.
a] It just as well can be the shroud of someone other than Jesus.
b] The shroud doesn't prove resurrection.


Perhaps the greatest leap in faith: Trust RCC it's real  :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

If the shroud is real than faith is obsolete.

[WhiteWings]

Because?

[Molly]

Faith is obsolete if the shroud is real?

naw

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

--Lk 16:31

[Beloved Servant]

Because?

Because faith is believing in things unseen.
If the shroud is real there is no reason for faith, for you now how visible evidence.

[Molly]

Faith is more than that.  But, there will always be plenty of unseen things, even in the ages to come.

We could handle the shroud being real.


Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.   Heb 11:1