"Go and Sin..."?

[sheila]

   Jeremiah 23;6 and 33;16 and echariah 12;7

   appointments and in orders....Joseph seated brothers around table in birth order......

    In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will LIVE in safety...

   I will bring Judah and Israel back from captivity and will rebuild them

   The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first,so that the honour of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitant's may not be greater than that of Judah.

    The above speaks of appointments and birth orders.

[Nathan]

For me, ALL MEN are sheep . .. but there are those "in the fold" and those that are lost.  But all are still as sheep.

Secondly, the unequally yoked thing . . . it's about relationships.  Everything is based on relationship.  Spreading the gospel is not something I do with a stranger.  I "am" the gospel to the stranger until the stranger becomes a friend, then when the relationship between us grows into just that, a relationship, "then" upon that relationship, I can build in them spiritual truths because they're now receptive rather than defensive.  That's one thing that kinda frustrates me with people like the Jehovah's witness that make it their mandatory requirement for active members to pair up, usually only men, and they go out and knock on doors . . .try to get people they've never met to accept something that's SUPPOSED to be built on and through intimacy, not just some product you're trying to sell to stone-cold strangers.

It's not just with Jehovah's witness of course, but that's just one example.  Being unequally yoked, for me is saying that I'm not to "bond" with someone that isn't also in a relationship with the source of "bonding" which is Christ.  I can have friends and friendships with those that have no relationship with God, that's not what unequally yoked is pertaining to . . . It's not about "being" with them, it's about joining in with the ungodliness they are involved in.

I also believe that even though in "our" eyes, we still see sin in and around us, the fact that we are seeing that is evidence that we still aren't comprehending the fulness of what salvation does in our relationship with God himself.  By the way James, it was John who stated that God is light and there is no darkness in him.  And those who also have his light in them, can not sin . . .1 John 3.  It's not that our flesh is now perfect, it's that we're spiritually perfected.  The sin is no longer charged against us.  God sees a "paid-in-full" if you will, stamped across our lives.  What this is demanding of us is, not that we look at ourselves from "our" perspective, but that we see ourselves from God's perspective.  If "he" says we can't sin because his light is in us, then "that's" where we should be walking, not down here where condemnation still inflicts those who are still earth-dwellers in their thinking.

[shawn]

[ "It rubs of on you" ???

There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes.  After awhile what do you think happened to him?

Again, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be to make a difference?  It seems there's some kind of "limits"?

Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness?  2 Corinthians 6:14

The great majority of us who work with alcoholics and drug addicts are recovering addicts and alcoholics.  This almost sounds like cootie talk from elementary school.  People afraid to be around the one with cooties or it might rub off.  I'm sorry but addiction doesn't work that way.  My wife could be around heroin, crack, MJ, alcohol and I'm convinced would never even desire to try those things.  Why?  Because she doesn't have a genetic predisposition towards addiction.  The great majority of the population would never have an issue with drugs because they try to help those with drug problems.  They do not have that disposition towards addiction.

This pastor who fell into addiction most likely had addiction issues, or at the very least a genetic predisposition to addiction.  So, should addicts not work with other addicts for fear of it "rubbing off" or influencing our behaviors?  There are many who are not ready.  But, there is a reason for the 12th step...and that is for an alcoholic or an addict to work with others who are struggling.  It's an essential step that strengthens and doesn't weaken our recovery.  But, it's not for the newcomer in recovery.

I take this same approach with everything.  One must know their own limits.  They need to follow that inner compass.  They must follow the Holy Spirit's leading.  But, to say we shouldn't serve for fear of becoming like those we serve is short sighted at best.

And we must make a distinction between service and social.  Should we befriend those who abuse the name of God, who cross our spiritual boundries, and who follow the flesh?  I can't imagine that being a healthy thing to do.  I have no desire to have friends that do not love the Lord.  But, I do have a desire to share my faith with those who do not know the Lord.

We must recognize the difference is yolking ourselves to friends and companions vs looking for opportunities to be of service to the lost.  There is a difference.

[WhiteWings]

So, then here's the kicker

It isn't. You posting verses about sons while the discussion is about brothers and sisters.
Lets assume 2 men living in a muslim flock. They are brothers. The flock is their family.
One man converts to Christianity.
Obviously one man calls the Christians his brothers and the other calls the muslim his brothers. I think we agree so far.
The real question is: Do they still call each other brothers?

[shawn]

For me, ALL MEN are sheep . .. but there are those "in the fold" and those that are lost.  But all are still as sheep.

Secondly, the unequally yoked thing . . . it's about relationships.  Everything is based on relationship.  Spreading the gospel is not something I do with a stranger.  I "am" the gospel to the stranger until the stranger becomes a friend, then when the relationship between us grows into just that, a relationship, "then" upon that relationship, I can build in them spiritual truths because they're now receptive rather than defensive.  That's one thing that kinda frustrates me with people like the Jehovah's witness that make it their mandatory requirement for active members to pair up, usually only men, and they go out and knock on doors . . .try to get people they've never met to accept something that's SUPPOSED to be built on and through intimacy, not just some product you're trying to sell to stone-cold strangers.

It's not just with Jehovah's witness of course, but that's just one example.  Being unequally yoked, for me is saying that I'm not to "bond" with someone that isn't also in a relationship with the source of "bonding" which is Christ.  I can have friends and friendships with those that have no relationship with God, that's not what unequally yoked is pertaining to . . . It's not about "being" with them, it's about joining in with the ungodliness they are involved in.

I also believe that even though in "our" eyes, we still see sin in and around us, the fact that we are seeing that is evidence that we still aren't comprehending the fulness of what salvation does in our relationship with God himself.  By the way James, it was John who stated that God is light and there is no darkness in him.  And those who also have his light in them, can not sin . . .1 John 3.  It's not that our flesh is now perfect, it's that we're spiritually perfected.  The sin is no longer charged against us.  God sees a "paid-in-full" if you will, stamped across our lives.  What this is demanding of us is, not that we look at ourselves from "our" perspective, but that we see ourselves from God's perspective.  If "he" says we can't sin because his light is in us, then "that's" where we should be walking, not down here where condemnation still inflicts those who are still earth-dwellers in their thinking.

I'm not sure I would disagree with any of this other than what you may define as "friend".  I believe it's tough but not impossible to witness to someone with whom you have no relationship with.  I do believe relationship to be the vehicle with which witness is strengthened.  But, when we look for an opportunity, and we build a relationship in order to witness is that friendship?  I would say no.  For me, a friend is someone I can talk to about things I keep hidden from others.  They are someone who can participate in the mutual spiritual building process.  Someone who follows the flesh can not be that person to me.  People I consider friends know Christ, we talk about Christ and our friendship is built upon that rock.  What you are talking about in my book is a friendly acquaintance. 

[sheila]

yeah,and He also told us,He WILL LEAVE THE 99 FOR THE SAKE OF ONE....the 99 need to make sure they don't push with shouldre and shove 'that class'

  away from the free gift......I will judge between a sheep and a sheep....THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANTSPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE!a clue in about

  the very nature of our Shepherd

    Luke 16;8  the Parable of the shrewd manager  'what shall I do now,my Master is taking away my job.I'm not strong enough to dig,and I'm ashamed to beg-"

     I KNOW WHAT I'LL DO SO THAT WHEN I LOSE MY JOB HERE,PEOPLE WILL WELCOME ME INTO THEIR HOUSES...

   So,He called in each one of his masters 'debtors'......he began systematically reducing debt.......

   Good Samaritan parable.....samaritan commended by God.....others concerned about 'ritual' purity....there YOU HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST ON THE MATTER

    For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the Light.

   Cancelling of all debt upon us....

   so,if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth,who will trut you with the true riches[spiritual gifts]

   and if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property,who will give you property of your own.

      you received freely,give freely

      this is my bone of contention with those that sentence the dead in Adam to LOF....weren't you also dead in Adam? didn't you receive undeserved kindness?

   a free gift?  then 'who are you" to deny the same to others? Do these things not belong to the Lord?...Enlarge your hearts..enlarge your tent stakes

[lomarah]

 :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

For me, ALL MEN are sheep . .. but there are those "in the fold" and those that are lost.  But all are still as sheep.

Secondly, the unequally yoked thing . . . it's about relationships.  Everything is based on relationship.  Spreading the gospel is not something I do with a stranger.  I "am" the gospel to the stranger until the stranger becomes a friend, then when the relationship between us grows into just that, a relationship, "then" upon that relationship, I can build in them spiritual truths because they're now receptive rather than defensive.  That's one thing that kinda frustrates me with people like the Jehovah's witness that make it their mandatory requirement for active members to pair up, usually only men, and they go out and knock on doors . . .try to get people they've never met to accept something that's SUPPOSED to be built on and through intimacy, not just some product you're trying to sell to stone-cold strangers.

It's not just with Jehovah's witness of course, but that's just one example.  Being unequally yoked, for me is saying that I'm not to "bond" with someone that isn't also in a relationship with the source of "bonding" which is Christ.  I can have friends and friendships with those that have no relationship with God, that's not what unequally yoked is pertaining to . . . It's not about "being" with them, it's about joining in with the ungodliness they are involved in.

I also believe that even though in "our" eyes, we still see sin in and around us, the fact that we are seeing that is evidence that we still aren't comprehending the fulness of what salvation does in our relationship with God himself.  By the way James, it was John who stated that God is light and there is no darkness in him.  And those who also have his light in them, can not sin . . .1 John 3.  It's not that our flesh is now perfect, it's that we're spiritually perfected.  The sin is no longer charged against us.  God sees a "paid-in-full" if you will, stamped across our lives.  What this is demanding of us is, not that we look at ourselves from "our" perspective, but that we see ourselves from God's perspective.  If "he" says we can't sin because his light is in us, then "that's" where we should be walking, not down here where condemnation still inflicts those who are still earth-dwellers in their thinking.

I'm not sure I would disagree with any of this other than what you may define as "friend".  I believe it's tough but not impossible to witness to someone with whom you have no relationship with.  I do believe relationship to be the vehicle with which witness is strengthened.  But, when we look for an opportunity, and we build a relationship in order to witness is that friendship?  I would say no.  For me, a friend is someone I can talk to about things I keep hidden from others.  They are someone who can participate in the mutual spiritual building process.  Someone who follows the flesh can not be that person to me.  People I consider friends know Christ, we talk about Christ and our friendship is built upon that rock.  What you are talking about in my book is a friendly acquaintance.

But that's the whole point, my experience with God is not a product to go to the street corner and sell to others . . .it's a personal relationship.  And so as such, others can't experience this relationship unless there is a relationship there to build on.  My intent is not to "save" the world, but instead, it's to be a friend . . ."be" Christ.  I don't befriend someone because I think they need to go to heaven.  I should befriend them because that's what God's nature "is".  It's not religion, it's friendship.

I kinda raised a few eyebrows in my church a while back when I told them we should do what Jesus instructed Peter to do . . we should lay our swords down  . . . lay our interpretation of God's word down and just be friends with people and let our relationship with God manifest on it's own "through" our friendship.

[Molly]

So, then here's the kicker

It isn't. You posting verses about sons while the discussion is about brothers and sisters.
Lets assume 2 men living in a muslim flock. They are brothers. The flock is their family.
One man converts to Christianity.
Obviously one man calls the Christians his brothers and the other calls the muslim his brothers. I think we agree so far.
The real question is: Do they still call each other brothers?

Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you."

But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?"

And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

--Mat 12

[shawn]

Nathan...this could very well be a maturity in Christ thing.  I may come to see it as you do in the future.  Or maybe we are just disagree on definitions.  But, I do make a distinction between those I am yolked (friends) with and those I build a friendly relationship with.  And while I don't see a need to "save the world" or "keep someone out of hell" or anything of the like...I can't but help wanting to share what I have come to know.  It's bursting out of me and I can't but help talk about Christ.  Sometimes that spills out onto a stranger, or someone I barely know.

[jabcat]

Agree with your last post Shawn.   :thumbsup:

[ "It rubs of on you" ???

There was an evangelist who spent years in New Orleans, hanging out with alcoholics, druggies, and prostitutes.  After awhile what do you think happened to him?

Again, loving, caring, spending time with - but just to say "we're all OK, we're in this together", or is it supposed to be to make a difference?  It seems there's some kind of "limits"?[/b]

Stop becoming unevenly yoked with unbelievers. What partnership can righteousness have with lawlessness? What fellowship can light have with darkness?  2 Corinthians 6:14

The great majority of us who work with alcoholics and drug addicts are recovering addicts and alcoholics.  This almost sounds like cootie talk from elementary school.  People afraid to be around the one with cooties or it might rub off.  I'm sorry but addiction doesn't work that way.  My wife could be around heroin, crack, MJ, alcohol and I'm convinced would never even desire to try those things.  Why?  Because she doesn't have a genetic predisposition towards addiction.  The great majority of the population would never have an issue with drugs because they try to help those with drug problems.  They do not have that disposition towards addiction.

This pastor who fell into addiction most likely had addiction issues, or at the very least a genetic predisposition to addiction.  So, should addicts not work with other addicts for fear of it "rubbing off" or influencing our behaviors?  There are many who are not ready.  But, there is a reason for the 12th step...and that is for an alcoholic or an addict to work with others who are struggling.  It's an essential step that strengthens and doesn't weaken our recovery.  But, it's not for the newcomer in recovery.

I take this same approach with everything.  One must know their own limits.  They need to follow that inner compass.  They must follow the Holy Spirit's leading.  But, to say we shouldn't serve for fear of becoming like those we serve is short sighted at best.

And we must make a distinction between service and social.  Should we befriend those who abuse the name of God, who cross our spiritual boundries, and who follow the flesh?  I can't imagine that being a healthy thing to do.  I have no desire to have friends that do not love the Lord.  But, I do have a desire to share my faith with those who do not know the Lord.

We must recognize the difference is yolking ourselves to friends and companions vs looking for opportunities to be of service to the lost.  There is a difference.

No cooties, I just believe in many ways we're all vulnerable if we don't take the steps to keep our main relationships healthy - including with the Lord.  As you indicate, I also believe there are probably some limits as well as things to be aware of.  Limits in terms of, that probably shouldn't be our only or even main source of contact or relationship.  Also, as suggested in the OP and elsewhere to stimulate conversation, but now I'll more clearly state, I believe we should be there to make a difference, not just "hang out" and look for our primary source of "fellowship", influence, or (and I don't know where the line is, probably different for everyone) main attachments.  I've worked with addicts for 28 years.  I'm talking more about personal relationships, relationships in a group of ecclesia, and generally how as believers we are responsible to view and respond.

* Really, the whole point of the thread, from my perspective is, I believe we are to be salt and light, "change agents" - not a "forced", self-righteous thing, but an avenue for Him to work through us to help accomplish the "go and sin no more" as our heart's desire - for me included.   Willing to say " I may not always be able to do it myself, but here's how I understand God's will on this". As stated in the OP, I believe WE ALL MISS THE MARK.  Paul did apparently, but he didn't live in stubborn, unrepentant (unacknowledged) constantly willing sin.  His heart was for the Lord and His ways.  His flesh just didn't always cooperate.  Again, I'm addressing "do we just accept everyone (including ourself) as being "OK, doesn't matter, don't worry about - Muslim, Buddhist, rapist, all are hunky-dory we're all worshiping the same god and are going to the same place (I've actually heard that said)", or do we love the heck out of them, be their friend, while being willing to say "how do we seek God's will together and what does He have to say about X,Y,Z"?   You know, I've been in MANY discussions and situations where I either went along with the wickedness, or took a stand and remained true to my conscience and what I knew God's teachings were on the matter.  Sometimes I've stood, very few times handled it with grace, and many times I've failed. As I said, I think it's a tricky business - to know the parameters and do it well.  I don't do it very well.  And just from this limited discussion over the past 24 hours, once again, it becomes evident we have many opinions and ways to look at it and go about it.  :bigGrin:  Good thing it's ultimately not up to us, that's it's "God working through us  to accomplish His good pleasure".    :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

P.S.  As I recall the evangelist story I heard, he had not spent as much time fellowshipping with healthy influences, sort of cutting himself off from some of that and instead spending "too much?" time "in the gutter"?  (I can't judge.)  I think of Jesus.  Even He went away from the masses and spent time alone with His Father and with His disciples.  I believe it was to stay focused, refreshed, and strengthened.   It seems He did that often.  He spent a lot time with the wounded and hurting, even to His criticism.  But He spent maybe even more time with His primary ("equally yoked") relationships.  :2c:

[jabcat]

I'm speculating, because we're not specifically told.  But I'd guess the woman Jesus told to "go and sin no more", probably did sin some more, in one way or another.  She was still human.  However, I believe she was changed;  that her heart and desires were different.  And even though still living in a stubborn body of flesh, that she began to seek God's will as her goal.  He loved her and accepted her, but He made a difference, not just left her the same as He found her.   :2c:

[sheila]

   sometimes we escape something'by the skin of our teeth"  these things impact us more intensely,I think.  Cause us to be more diligent,more aware

   of the trap and snare. 

[Nathan]

Rather than seeing that passage as Jesus instructing her not to sin anymore, what if what he's actually saying is, in her, sin is no more.

[shawn]

Rather than seeing that passage as Jesus instructing her not to sin anymore, what if what he's actually saying is, in her, sin is no more.

I think that is reasonable.  If it is a believer who no longer sins but their flesh that sins...why not for this lady as well?

[shawn]

P.S.  As I recall the evangelist story I heard, he had not spent as much time fellowshipping with healthy influences, sort of cutting himself off from some of that and instead spending "too much?" time "in the gutter"?  (I can't judge.)  I think of Jesus.  Even He went away from the masses and spent time alone with His Father and with His disciples.  I believe it was to stay focused, refreshed, and strengthened.   It seems He did that often.  He spent a lot time with the wounded and hurting, even to His criticism.  But He spent maybe even more time with His primary ("equally yoked") relationships.  :2c:

I'm not saying there is never a place for barstool evangelism.  What I will say is that it is very dangerous for an alcoholic or an addict to do it.  I suspect the pastor had an attraction to these people for a reason.  I wanted to work with alcoholics long before I was sober.  Those with alcoholic predispositions often find co-dependent counterparts even before they start drinking and drugging.  I know I did.  It's almost like people can smell other peoples genetic tendencies and gravitate to those individuals they can be sick with.  I suspect that pastor either had an addiction issue himself, or had close family members in addiction.  In either case, hanging out in the gutter long enough (with a genetic predisposition) is bound to have an effect.  There are safe and unsafe ways to help those with addiction issues.  While I help those with addiction issues, you probably won't see me at a bar recruiting to A.A. meetings anytime soon.

[shawn]

   sometimes we escape something'by the skin of our teeth"  these things impact us more intensely,I think.  Cause us to be more diligent,more aware

   of the trap and snare.

I think that is a fair assessment.  Many of us talk about the same things with different terms.  For me... escaping by the skin of our teeth means coming close to death...hitting a bottom.  If you had to hit a bottom in order to change a behavior it is something that changes you forever.