How can you prove UR conclusively?

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi there,

for quite some years now I am sitting on a fence as far as the decision between believing UR or ET is concerned. UR is what I want to be true, ET is what I am afraid is true.

Some days ago I thought I would just stop believing in ET because it is just too much. Given that God is omnipotent and that in Christ He has all means to save literally everyone, it would mean that if ET is true it's because of God who can't help but to be angry and wrathful forever towards some. Which seems very superficial to me.

But, on the other hand, an online friend of mine has said that UR turns God into a "chum" God who lets mankind run all over Him. I mean, think about how some sins offend humans. For example, think of a child raper ... many people would say they have no sympathy anymore for such people. Many years ago, my grandmother said something very nasty about my mom when she was pregnant, (grandmother was an alcoholic), and my mother said this killed all the love she had for her mother. So I think maybe some sins and especially the refusal of grace causes God's love to stop for some people. Like in us humans, it causes very bad emotions for God, He becomes bitter about such people and turns from them and only cares for those who are suffering and who know love, and for innocents like babies and the disabled.

I've also thought through some of the terrible kind of sins, and I found that it is possible that these sins create a barrier between the sinner and God, a great estrangement that can only be remedied if the sinner submits to God and regrets his sin.

I mean, we must live in the truth, that is the number 1 rule in life from God's perspective. And perhaps it is simply true that some people must be punished eternally - I mean, that this punishment doesn't originate from God but that He simply sees the truth just like we will see it eventually.

In the dark abyss of these thoughts, how could I believe in something like UR? Can God forgive child rapers? Or cannibals? Or people like Hitler? I suppose the real question is not whether UR or ET is "better" or more "approbriate". It is about how can God damn good people, those who didn't do much wrong besides doing what Jesus said on the cross: "... for they know not what they are doing". I am thinking of countries and places Pakistan or Saudi-Arabia where the church isn't allowed to be active and where the people may not even legally own a bible, where converting to christianity can be punished by death.

And so I settle for returning to my fence. I can't decide myself for anything but to honor God, to pray Thy Will be Done, and to hope for the best. I still see Jesus' love, and I know how sin is nothing negligible but something really awful. Even punishments have their place - and only God knows who can be saved. And I know that genuine regret and brokenheartedness about sin isn't something which means nothing to God. That is where I find His mercy - may He extend it to all of us!

[jabcat]

Perhaps your friend doesn't understand true Biblical UR, i.e., the Good News.

Anything not of Him will be burned away, destroyed.  Any stubborn will of man will be broken.  Nothing that made Hitler be "Hitler", will be left.  Only what's pure will remain.  In Hitler's case, that may only be the spirit God gave, when all else is consumed.  God will not be mocked.  To quote Brother J. Preston Eby,

"Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer. We all know that a horse must be broken, that is, its will must be broken before it is of any practical use to man. God put that will in the horse, but it must be broken and made to conform to the will of man. Just as surely did God put the will in man, BUT IT MUST BE BROKEN and we will benefit by the very process of breaking. Man may do a lot of crying and wailing, but when he is broken to HIS will, what a wonderful condition it is. God may take man over some rough places, even through the lake of fire and brimstone, but the love of God will break every man to His will. If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around.

Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God."

Blessings, James.

[WhiteWings]

In the dark abyss of these thoughts, how could I believe in something like UR? Can God forgive child rapers? Or cannibals? Or people like Hitler?

How could God roast people for enternity because they were born in a none Christian country? Stole a cookie and didn't repent? Were a member of the wrong denomination? Turned to drugs due to a traumatic experience?

My point is; Hitler is used as proof ET must be true. The other side of the coin is that many peopel who commited small sins get trapped in the same place as Hitler. That not logical either.

[shawn]

Saul killed Christians.  Paul wrote a great portion of the Bible.  This was only by the grace of God.  I think if you ask most Christians, if Hitler would have truly repented for his sins and professed Jesus Christ as his Savior, would he have been saved?  Many if not the great majority would say yes.  So, it's not that Hitler couldn't be saved, it's that they believe he can't be saved after death.

I was brought up knowing right from wrong...with loving parents...taught about Jesus from birth.  Yet, I have committed great evils in my life.  What if my upbringing would have been different?  What if I had been beat, raped, or abused?  How about brought up believing in God, but not Jesus?

Where your friend makes his first mistake is by judging God by human standards.  I see this mistake even with the UR crowd.  We tend to judge God, with limited, jaded, finite, and ignorant filters.  I have done it myself.  What God has give me isn't iron clad Biblical proof of UR...even though there is much support.  He has given me relationship through faith.  And in that relationship there has been a revealing of parts of his nature to me.  And I am utterly convinced that God has good intentions towards ALL men, that he will bring good to ALL men...each in their own order according to His purposes, timeline and plan.

Last thing that appears to me here is the fact that your friend suggests that if God forgives sin, then some how he just pats man on the back and says...eh it's aight.  First, none of us are without sin and none come to God by their own merit.  There is great cost traveling the wide road to destruction.  There will be great cost being cast into the Lake of Fire.  With that said, we have a picture of creation after the Lake of Fire...every knee bowing...every tongue confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord.  How can anyone believe God is just patting man on the back, when they have a clear unadulterated picture of universal reconciliation?

[redhotmagma]

before
8"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
         "For the day when I rise up as a witness.
         Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
         To assemble kingdoms,
         To pour out on them My indignation,
         All My burning anger;
         For all the earth will be devoured
         By the fire of My zeal.


after
9"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
         That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
         To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.


the word peoples and nations here is goyim, non-jews, a kind of pejorative now (watch Seinfeld for homework to see the word goyim in modern usage :laughing7:)

[shawn]

before
8"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
         "For the day when I rise up as a witness.
         Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
         To assemble kingdoms,
         To pour out on them My indignation,
         All My burning anger;
         For all the earth will be devoured
         By the fire of My zeal.


after
9"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
         That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
         To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.


the word peoples and nations here is goyim, non-jews, a kind of pejorative now (watch Seinfeld for homework to see the word goyim in modern usage :laughing7:)

Would you mind listing book and chapter?

[redhotmagma]

Sorry, zephaniah 3

[PaoloNuevo]

before
8"Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
         "For the day when I rise up as a witness.
         Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
         To assemble kingdoms,
         To pour out on them My indignation,
         All My burning anger;
         For all the earth will be devoured
         By the fire of My zeal.


after
9"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
         That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
         To serve Him shoulder to shoulder.


the word peoples and nations here is goyim, non-jews, a kind of pejorative now (watch Seinfeld for homework to see the word goyim in modern usage :laughing7:)

[Aleax]

But, on the other hand, an online friend of mine has said that UR turns God into a "chum" God who lets mankind run all over Him.

Like James said, maybe your friend doesn't understand the Biblical UR. There will be punishment, just not endless punishment.

In Deuteronomy 7:9 God promises Israel His blessings upon them for a thousand generations. If a generation was 33 years in those ancient days, 33 generations would equal 33,000 years. This can be seen as prophetic of the length of the "eon of the eons".

Israel was under Mosaic law approx. 2300 years.
The church age will probably not last for much more than 2000 years.
Christ's Kingdom will last for 1000 years.
I have no idea how long the Judgement eon will last. I once saw a calculation by someone who came to the conclusion it will last 500 years, so let's use 500 years for this scenario.
That still leaves us with 27200 years that have to be done away with before the Last Age can be consummated. In other words it can be speculated the Lake of Fire may last up to 27200 years for the most flagrantly wicked people to ever live.

Of course this is just my speculation, and I don't even know if the "thousand generations" in Deut 7:9 are literal 1000 generations.

[micah7:9]

1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Thats how I am sure.

[WhiteWings]

1Jn 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Thats how I am sure.

:spank:

Proverbs 13:24
He who withholds his rod hates his son,
But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

Proverbs 22:15
Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13-14
Do not hold back discipline from the child,
Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
You shall strike him with the rod
And rescue his soul from Sheol.

Proverbs 29:15
The rod and reproof give wisdom,
But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother.

[PaoloNuevo]

Love the Eternal Tormentors and forgive them.. then correct them gently and lovingly.

[Aleax]

Anyway, as for the topic, proving UR conclusively.

I think the following are pivotal points:

a] understanding the purpose of the eons. If God intends to torch most people forever, why doesn't He wrap up the game after the present eon already? What is the purpose of "the eons to come" ?

b] understanding the role of the elect. Yes, God does elect some people. But what for? To exclude everyone else? Or to include everyone else?

c] testimonies of the early church fathers. ET'ers say it's unlikely the Church has gotten it wrong for the first 1800 years. I say it's unlikely they got it wrong for the first 400 years.

d] testimonies of former ET believers. A lot of people believe UR was revealed to them by God Himself.

as for a] I suggest you read the booklet I have linked in my sig and/or check out "The Divine Calendar" by AE Knoch.
as for b] I suggest you watch the following YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCMyWA1gLXQ
as for c] there's study material at Scholar's Corner.
as for d] check out the thread started by WillieH in the "Testimonies" section.