Is the Old Testament really cruel, or does Hellfire make it look that way?

Started by Universalist Catholic, August 04, 2011, 04:25:55 AM

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Universalist Catholic

August 04, 2011, 04:25:55 AM
The anti-Christians point to the Old Testament as a book full of violence, hate, biggotry and cruelty.  The Liberal Christian sees the Old Testament as the Judaic portion of no importance.  Yet Ive noticed that the Jews only have the Old Testament, and Judaism as a whole seems much more Christlike than many of those so called bible believing Evangelicals.  Yet many Jews know the Old Tesament very well.  And the Old testament even in our modern translations give no illusion to Eternal Damnation.  So this brings me to thinking that if you believe in a god who will torture people forever, you create a horrible monster for an idol, and thats exactly how the Old tesament is read, in the form of a god who cares more about his own ego and so little compassion that it would make the events of the old testament look barbaric.  Yet when you look at it through the eyes of Universalism, or at least without eternal torture, you can see a good and loving purpose.  Like the Mosaic Law seems more about protecting the Israelites from danger than being a control freak.  In fact, many of the pagan nations remind me a lot of Religious fundamentalism of today.  Yet they recieved judgment for their spiritually abusive ways.  Not just cause they werent the right religion.

WhiteWings

#2
August 04, 2011, 09:32:26 PM
Mmm, what about all those wars?
Why did the people of Egypt have to suffer plagues because of the arrogance of their leader?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
>>> My sites <<<    -    >>> Free Bible study material <<<

urpilgrim

#4
August 04, 2011, 11:16:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 04, 2011, 09:32:26 PM
Mmm, what about all those wars?
Why did the people of Egypt have to suffer plagues because of the arrogance of their leader?

#1 God was only taking back what He had promised Abraham. After the land was back in the rightful hands God never lead them to go on and conquer the rest of the world (A LA Islam, the Crusades  or any other despot etc) around them. Israel had to defend themselves on several occasions afterwards, lost a few, won a few, depending on their faithfulness. But God had a plan to accomplish on a little hill just outside that small town of Jerusalem. To destroy the work of the devil.

#2 Don't we all suffer because of the arrogance of our leaders in one form or another. Nothing new under the sun  :dontknow:

My :2c:

pickr

#5
August 05, 2011, 12:04:50 AM
My opinion, for what it's worth.

The OT is far, far deeper than simply a cursory reading of the text can possibly convey. I mean, Jewish scholars have been parsing it for more than two millennia, and rabbis to this day spend lifetimes studying not only the text but the commentaries of the Talmud. How much is simple history? How much is parable designed to teach a deeper, spiritual lesson? I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty.

But in any case, I find it hard to judge a God who can kill and subsequently make alive again in the same manner that I would judge one who can only kill. We serve a God who has had a glorious end in mind since the moment He created this world and everything and everyone in it. It is a good end. In fact it's the best end possible for everyone... including Sodom, the Egyptian first born, the Caananites, and everyone else who it may seem got a raw deal in the OT. I know we can't understand it all at this moment, but I'm confident that we will one day.

Anyway, my two cents.

Andy

redhotmagma

#6
August 05, 2011, 12:32:45 AM
Quote from: pickr on August 05, 2011, 12:04:50 AM
My opinion, for what it's worth.

The OT is far, far deeper than simply a cursory reading of the text can possibly convey. I mean, Jewish scholars have been parsing it for more than two millennia, and rabbis to this day spend lifetimes studying not only the text but the commentaries of the Talmud. How much is simple history? How much is parable designed to teach a deeper, spiritual lesson? I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty.

But in any case, I find it hard to judge a God who can kill and subsequently make alive again in the same manner that I would judge one who can only kill. We serve a God who has had a glorious end in mind since the moment He created this world and everything and everyone in it. It is a good end. In fact it's the best end possible for everyone... including Sodom, the Egyptian first born, the Caananites, and everyone else who it may seem got a raw deal in the OT. I know we can't understand it all at this moment, but I'm confident that we will one day.

Anyway, my two cents.

Andy

:thumbsup:

redhotmagma

#8
August 05, 2011, 01:02:41 AM
These things happened to them as examples and were written for our instruction, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1 Cor 10

thinktank

#9
August 05, 2011, 01:36:38 AM
Quote from: pickr on August 05, 2011, 12:04:50 AM
My opinion, for what it's worth.

The OT is far, far deeper than simply a cursory reading of the text can possibly convey. I mean, Jewish scholars have been parsing it for more than two millennia, and rabbis to this day spend lifetimes studying not only the text but the commentaries of the Talmud. How much is simple history? How much is parable designed to teach a deeper, spiritual lesson? I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty.

But in any case, I find it hard to judge a God who can kill and subsequently make alive again in the same manner that I would judge one who can only kill. We serve a God who has had a glorious end in mind since the moment He created this world and everything and everyone in it. It is a good end. In fact it's the best end possible for everyone... including Sodom, the Egyptian first born, the Caananites, and everyone else who it may seem got a raw deal in the OT. I know we can't understand it all at this moment, but I'm confident that we will one day.

Anyway, my two cents.

Andy

I'll give a thumbs up aswell  :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

Confident UR Christian

#10
August 05, 2011, 03:03:21 AM
QuoteThe OT is far, far deeper than simply a cursory reading of the text can possibly convey. I mean, Jewish scholars have been parsing it for more than two millennia, and rabbis to this day spend lifetimes studying not only the text but the commentaries of the Talmud. How much is simple history? How much is parable designed to teach a deeper, spiritual lesson? I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty.

:thumbsup: Yes, this seems a good insight!

I have a (possible) idea about how we could interpret the Old Testament, which avoids all purported difficulties. We can base it on the principles that: a) God is love, and love alone, b) God does not change in nature, c) the Bible is a mixture of lhistorical, poetic and figurative genres, with, overall the message that counts and d) the Bible is wholly harmonious. As an aside, it is meant to be a book of meaning, not primarily a history or science textbook, and so there need not be any conflict with scientific thought. It is possible that from time to time even the actual authors did not absolutely anticipate the true meaning of the text that they were writing, and that, for some passages, the message is portrayed in such a manner that it will become more understandable (and possibly was originally intended) in the context of eternal life. In this way, we can overcome moderately simply a) problems with God performing certain actions and b) problems with difficulty in understanding.

Consider the following quotes:

"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." (1 John 4:16b,c)

"God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5b)

"4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails."

(1 Corinthians 13:4-8a)

Especially: (Matthew 22:34-40)

34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Loving God, who is love and light, is not in conflict with loving one's neighbour. Hence, it seems to me that the Old Testament could have this "principle of agape love" applied to it. Since a given passage could be either referring to an event, or demonstrating a principle by figurative language, this "principle of agape" could be applied to it. If it apparantly seems to be difficult to reconcile with God's loving character in Jesus and expressed in Paul's letters, then, it seems to me, reasonable to conclude that such a passage is figurative in meaning; this helps fulfill a), b), c) and d), and prevents possibly harmful misapplication.

This would be able to help many struggling with problems such as these, and prevent people needlessly being turned away because of misconceptions about God; it also allows Biblical inspiration, and the inerrancy of the message portrayed by the text, to be held without much problem. However, this is only an idea (which certainly isn't unique to me).  :bigGrin:


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