Unbelievers permanently banned from New Jerusalem?

[Aleax]

This isn't an argument against UR, but more like an argument against everyone being in God's presence one day.

I was checking out the website of certain person, and turned out he was UR. However, he argued that those who enter the Lake of Fire will be allowed to inhabit the New Earth after they've done their sentence, but they will be forever refused entry to New Jerusalem and God's presence. They will only get to worship God in spirit, in the "outer court" outside the city gates. He didn't give any verses to support his beliefs, but these two ones came to my mind after reading his views:

Rev 22:19 (YLT) and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll

2 Thess 1:9 (NIV) They will be punished with everlasting [aionios] destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

What do you think?

[WhiteWings]

I think that some atheists have more Scriptual knowledge :winkgrin:

1] In the OT there are people that are blotted out from 'secular books. Usually/often for 30 years. But never permanently.

2] Your verse has the magic word aion. NJ will still be there after that aion.

3] The gates of NJ are open day and night and everybody is allowed to eat from the tree with the healing leaves and drink of the fountain of life.
People living in NJ are people with perfected bodies. Never sick so the healing leaves can't be for them. The leaves are for the nations.
^ACVRev 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So healing goes on after NJ is founded. But to eat from those leaves they (nations/people) have to be in the center of the city

^ACVRev 21
6 And he said to me, I have become, I, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him who is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.



Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 
For what it's worth NDEs show that people in the city/kingdom are not equal and very few can approach God. Everyone is still growing and eventually all reach God.

[Aleax]

Thanks for the input.

For what it's worth NDEs show that people in the city/kingdom are not equally and very few can approach God. Everyone is still growing and eventually all reach God.

This is what I personally believe, too. We are growing/being corrected until we reach purr-fection.

[lomarah]

Aleax I read that somewhere too. Where did you read it? Jesus also talks about losing your soul so I can sort of see a scriptural basis for it but I really don't know...

[Aleax]

I read it here:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/jouko.piho/sivu4.htm

but it's not in English.

The author argues that only those who received celestial bodies at Christ's 2nd coming will ever be allowed inside the city gates. Those who only received terrestial bodies will be permanently shut out, as well as those who weren't even qualified for the 1,000 year Kingdom and had to visit the Lake of Fire. In other words, the New Earth is for everyone, but the Holy City is only for the "elect few". However, as I said the author didn't give any verses to support his stance.

The problem I have with this view is that if it were true, it would mean God plays favorites after all. Most people aren't elected.

[WhiteWings]

http://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kolumbus.fi%2Fjouko.piho%2Fsivu4.htm

[eaglesway]

IMO....

the New Jerusalem already is, and liars and murderers and thieves can't get in it. If you do get into it walk in reverence lest you get thrown back out of it (Ananias, Sapphira, Simon the sorcerer, Jannes and Jambres, Hymenias and Philetus)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
(Heb 12:22-24)

Paul understood this when he said to Timothy, "I charge you in the presence of God and His holy angels....(1 Tim 5:21)

Some of us are not seated (experiential) in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, and are not aware of the mysteries- such as Christ and the Bride. We may be aware of our objective position but are totally unable to experience it because of carnality and unbelief- so we always look to the future in the prophesies. But the prophesies are for now and they always have been. In the NOW, the NEW JERUSALEM is COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN and anyone who will enter can do so- they just need to believe and leave some baggage outside the door.... Lying, sexual uncleaness, murder, hatred, covetousness, ambition, etc. If anyone cleanse oneself from these they will be a vessel fit for the master's use.

This is, again IMO definitely about outter court inner court holy of holies etc. but IN THE NOW where are you dwelling TODAY- I go to prepare a place for you that where I am there you may b also.... Seated in the heavely realms in Christ Jesus where all spiritual blessing abounds.

I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
(1Ti 6:10-16)


We are living stones being built into a tabernacle of God in the spirit, Jesus being the chief cornerstone and the cap of the arch(Zech)- "Arise O Lord to your dwelling place"(eph 2:20; 1 pet 2:6, Isaiah 28:16)

The nations are being healed now by the leaves(words) and the fruit (fruit) of trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord- while the axe is being laid to some other trees because they quit bearing fruit

The river flows from beneath the throne - a now a river of life- there is a river that makes glad the city of God- Ezekiel went in knee deep, then thigh deep- we all need to go a little deeper :o)

The invitation is gone out...."Come to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb and His Bride" Most are to busy with their little church kingdoms to take the invitation

The cry has gone out.... "THE BRIDEGROOM IS COMING'..... Very few have enough oil(spirit, prophetic fuel etc.) in their lamps to make it out to the banquet hall and the door is closing.

COME YE OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE A CLEAN AND SEPARATE PEOPLE speaks of Babylon, religious confusion, head of gold churches etc.   we are to come out and return to ZION, JERUSALEM, THE CITY OF GOD having foundations in the heavens, not made by human hands, whose builder and maker is God.

Jesus already "came down out of the heavens" once and is revealed as Savior of All. He is coming down again to be revealed as Lord of All and He will rule from within the midst of His people. "I will be their God and I will dwell among them and walk among them and they will be my people and all the nations will know that I am the Lord"

By this will the nations know that you are my disciples- by your love one for another. If they cannot see the holy city, who is to blame?

The holy city, the Bride, is still "coming down" out of heaven because she is still being revealed".... THIS IS A GREAT MYSTERY, but I speak of Christ and His church".(Eph 5)

Brethren, we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

The Time is coming and Now Is..... what is coming is in the moment, in the twinkling of an eye. Get into that moment, be instant in season and out, the word of God is living and activated, the sparrow lives in that moment, as does the lily- taking no thought for tomoro, what shall I eat? WHAT SHALL I WEAR? Always in the future.

The Spirit blow where it wills nd you hear the sound of it but you don't know from where it comes or where it is going.... SO IT IS with EVERYONE  who is born of the Spirit.     

OK, I preach a little bit. So stone me. HAHAHA.

[Aleax]

Aleax I read that somewhere too.

Now I remember. A Quaker called Hall Worthington teaches this too. Make an internet search for him if you're interested.

His theology seems very legalistic. He argues that it's possible to become 100% sinless on Earth, but it's extremely difficult and very, very few will ever accomplish that. Consequently, most everyone to ever live will have to pass through the LoF. Further, he teaches that even though life in the outer court will be much better than on Earth, it will still be "nowhere near" the glory of the Holy City, and everyone restricted to the outer court will "deeply regret forever" not becoming sinless on Earth.

I can't really agree with the "total and complete purity attainable on Earth" doctrine. Plus, 99.9% of humanity living forever in a "deep state of regret" sounds very elitistic, to say the least.

EDIT: Thanks for the input Eaglesway.

[eaglesway]

IMO  it is not that a time sequence view of the prophesies is "WRONG". It is more that as we move into the moment, into the now, into the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.... the hidden picture emerges, the 3D picture hidden between the lines of the 2D milk.

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
(Eph 1:9)

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
(1Co 2:6-8)

Behold I show you a mystery....... we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed

I do not believe the overcomers sleep---- I think they awaken into the moment, the twinkling of an eye, that crescendo of the ages when the Lord Jesus tears the veil and "comes down from heaven" again as Lord, reigning in love and power with and through the kingdom of priests.

The mystery is (as I see it) only the ones who are living in the mystery, in the moment, in the now and have done so in their lives will partake in that moment- which is IMO the first resurrection. That is why we set our affections on things above where Christ is hidden at the right hand of God. It is also why when He is revealed we will be revealed with Him in glory- "If we suffer with Him, we will also be revealed with Him".    Like the sons of Zadok, who kept the charge of the Lord and were given priestly duties IN HIS PRESENCE. (Ezek). The rest of the Levites where given duties in the outer court but could NOT COME NIGH UNTO ME.
IMO this is a revelation for TODAY- are we ministering to the Lord? or to the sticks and stones? Access involves obedience.... because He humbled Himself, taking on the form of a servant, becoming obedient unto death, God also highly exalted Him giving Him a name above every name.

[eaglesway]

Because of this I think we, as the New Jerusalem, will always be open for the ministry of reconciliation until all of the enemies are subjected and reconciled and God is ALL IN ALL.

[PaoloNuevo]

Amen. The firstborn will bless the latterborn.

[thinktank]

I think that some atheists have more Scriptual knowledge :winkgrin:

1] In the OT there are people that are blotted out from 'secular books. Usually/often for 30 years. But never permanently.

2] Your verse has the magic word aion. NJ will still be there after that aion.

3] The gates of NJ are open day and night and everybody is allowed to eat from the tree with the healing leaves and drink of the fountain of life.
People living in NJ are people with perfected bodies. Never sick so the healing leaves can't be for them. The leaves are for the nations.
^ACVRev 22
2 in the middle of its thoroughfare. And on this side of the river and on that was a tree of life, bearing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit according to each month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So healing goes on after NJ is founded. But to eat from those leaves they (nations/people) have to be in the center of the city

^ACVRev 21
6 And he said to me, I have become, I, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him who is thirsty of the fountain of the water of life freely.



Read again Rev.22:14-15 and you will see that those who are outside the gate are those who are under Gods judgment and that if they keep His commandments have the right to the tree of life and may ENTER IN THOUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

Revelation 22:14-15  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22: 

In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
 
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal 

In Revelation 20-22, we have: 

Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)" 
For what it's worth NDEs show that people in the city/kingdom are not equal and very few can approach God. Everyone is still growing and eventually all reach God.

Well presented wings, your English is improving  :bigGrin:.  I also believe that the tree of life and leaves are for the nations or those who have not accepted Jesus in this age. Jesus sets up his iron rule kingdom and those who obey the commandments his rules, are able to enter the holy city.

I just hope they don't start taking pictures of my heavenly house (tourists)  :grin:

[thinktank]

Because of this I think we, as the New Jerusalem, will always be open for the ministry of reconciliation until all of the enemies are subjected and reconciled and God is ALL IN ALL.

Although I don' agree on some issues, reply 6 was rich eaglesway, flowing with milk and honey  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

"eaglesway, flowing with milk and honey" :bigGrin: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup: 

[eaglesway]

(1Sa 14:27)  But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.

(Eph 1:15-23) Wherefore also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you at my prayers,

that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart,

so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, 

in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet,

and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all:


(Eph 4:11-16) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ;

from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.


To edify and be edified in the love of God, among brethren in the body of Christ- Now this is truly honey!

For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
(Deu 32:9-13)

[eaglesway]

(1Sa 14:27)  But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.

(Eph 1:15-23) Wherefore also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you at my prayers,

that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart,

so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, 

in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet,

and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all:


(Eph 4:11-16) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ;

from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.


To edify and be edified in the love of God, among brethren in the body of Christ- Now this is truly honey!

For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
(Deu 32:9-13)

[micah7:9]

(1Sa 14:27)  But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath: wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.

(Eph 1:15-23) Wherefore also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which is in you, and the love which ye have towards all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you at my prayers,

that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart,

so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, 

in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet,

and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all:


(Eph 4:11-16) But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ;

from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love.


To edify and be edified in the love of God, among brethren in the body of Christ- Now this is truly honey!

For the LORD'S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him. He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
(Deu 32:9-13)

Wonderful read!

[Nathan]

Eaglesway, Like the others who have chimed in on your comments, I to loved and appreciate your comments IMMENSELY!!   I fully agree that the New Jerusalem is NOT going to be a LITERAL city suspended in air and lowered down to the earth, but it's about a spiritual embodiment that "we" become a "new" Jerusalem and the fact that we see it being lowered from the heavens, to me, simply means that it crosses from the invisible to the visible.  It becomes visible to the world . . .but the world that sees it is not a world living in natural reasoning, but rather a spiritual reality.

Also, the passage you quoted in 1 Samuel pertaining to Jonathan and the honey . . . do you know "where" this honey comb was?  Samson ate honey out of a lion . . .that one is loaded with symbolism as well.  But here . . .the honey is not out of a hive in a tree or structure of any kind . . .it's honey ON THE GROUND!! 

1 Samuel 14:25, 26
25 The entire army entered the woods, and there was honey on the ground. 26 When they went into the woods, they saw the honey oozing out; yet no one put his hand to his mouth, because they feared the oath.

There is a rich sweetness to the manna on our earth but many will not eat of it due to THEIR FEAR of the law of those they lifted up as leaders . . .their Sauls that have lost their anointing due to them taking matters into their own hands (understanding) rather than being led by the Samuel (prophetical voice) within them.

[eaglesway]

Eaglesway, Like the others who have chimed in on your comments, I to loved and appreciate your comments IMMENSELY!!   I fully agree that the New Jerusalem is NOT going to be a LITERAL city suspended in air and lowered down to the earth, but it's about a spiritual embodiment that "we" become a "new" Jerusalem and the fact that we see it being lowered from the heavens, to me, simply means that it crosses from the invisible to the visible.  It becomes visible to the world . . .but the world that sees it is not a world living in natural reasoning, but rather a spiritual reality.

Also, the passage you quoted in 1 Samuel pertaining to Jonathan and the honey . . . do you know "where" this honey comb was?  Samson ate honey out of a lion . . .that one is loaded with symbolism as well.  But here . . .the honey is not out of a hive in a tree or structure of any kind . . .it's honey ON THE GROUND!! 

1 Samuel 14:25, 26
25 The entire army entered the woods, and there was honey on the ground. 26 When they went into the woods, they saw the honey oozing out; yet no one put his hand to his mouth, because they feared the oath.

There is a rich sweetness to the manna on our earth but many will not eat of it due to THEIR FEAR of the law of those they lifted up as leaders . . .their Sauls that have lost their anointing due to them taking matters into their own hands (understanding) rather than being led by the Samuel (prophetical voice) within them.

Hebrews12:22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of [h]angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Eph2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Hebrews 10:10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.



1 Peter 2:1-8
As Newborn Babes
  Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the puremilk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
As Living Stones
  And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,  you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.  For this is contained in Scripture:
   "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

  This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,

   "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

  and,

   "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";

   for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

Amen Nathan

[thinktank]

Eaglesway, Like the others who have chimed in on your comments, I to loved and appreciate your comments IMMENSELY!!   I fully agree that the New Jerusalem is NOT going to be a LITERAL city suspended in air and lowered down to the earth, but it's about a spiritual embodiment that "we" become a "new" Jerusalem and the fact that we see it being lowered from the heavens, to me, simply means that it crosses from the invisible to the visible.  It becomes visible to the world . . .but the world that sees it is not a world living in natural reasoning, but rather a spiritual reality.

Also, the passage you quoted in 1 Samuel pertaining to Jonathan and the honey . . . do you know "where" this honey comb was?  Samson ate honey out of a lion . . .that one is loaded with symbolism as well.  But here . . .the honey is not out of a hive in a tree or structure of any kind . . .it's honey ON THE GROUND!! 

1 Samuel 14:25, 26
25 The entire army entered the woods, and there was honey on the ground. 26 When they went into the woods, they saw the honey oozing out; yet no one put his hand to his mouth, because they feared the oath.

There is a rich sweetness to the manna on our earth but many will not eat of it due to THEIR FEAR of the law of those they lifted up as leaders . . .their Sauls that have lost their anointing due to them taking matters into their own hands (understanding) rather than being led by the Samuel (prophetical voice) within them.

But I will say that those outside the city  gates cannot enter the city, even thou the gates are open. So maybe they cannot enter the city because they cannot even see it.

I once played a video game called ff8 and that game has an invisible city that did not come into view, until something triggered it to come into view.
The reason why it was invisible was to hide from the bad guys.

Perhaps those outside of this heavenly Jerusalem will be like evil creatures, full of evil. But if they repent they can come into the safety of new Jerusalem. (just a thought)

[eaglesway]

When Jesus said, "I am the bread of life that comes down from heaven", He was speaking metaphorically of the spiritual reality of the life given through His Spirit and His words/teaching and fellowship in them- worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.

In revelation, when it talks about the New Jerusalem, the holy city, "coming down out of heaven"- it is talking about the manifestation of the eternal city of God (there is a river that makes glad the city of God), and, as Nathan said- the unveiling before the eyes of men of the dwelling place of God, "For I will live among them and walk among them and I will be their God and they shall be my people".... This has occurred in part already, it began with the earthly Jerusalem and the lampstand that was Israel. It further unfolded at Pentecost with the distribution of the Spirit to Jew and Gentile, the ONE NEW MAN, aslo the New Jerusalem, "coming down out of heaven" before men in the power of the Spirit.

Acts 4:31-35  And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.



Acts 5:12 At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon's portico. 13 But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

And it shall come to pass in the last days says the Lord that I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh.......

They saw the Jerusalem of God manifested in the gathering of the believers in the early church.... maybe there will be an even greater manifestation of this at the crescendo of this age and the Lord begins to more overtly subject the enemies of this age- "The kingdoms of the earth have become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ!"

When it says, "veil in the heavens was rent and the sign of the son of man appearred in the heavens" I think it speaks of a tremendous outpouting of the Spirit of God and a universal "appearing" of Messiah (every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him). He is coming in the clouds(we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses).

Is Jesus capable of being head over all things to the church, the fulness of Him who fills all in all?

I think so, so "Prepare ye the way of the Lord!" :o)

[Beloved Servant]

Beautiful.

[sheila]

   lovely,Eaglesway......

      it is time

[Beloved Servant]

...or we would not know these things.

[eaglesway]

...or we would not know these things.

I keep hoping that as Simeon held the Child in his arms and said "Now I can go to my fathers in peace because the promise of the Lord has been fulfilled"..... I will see another manifestation of the New Jerusalem "coming down out of the heavens", the "wedding supper" of the Lamb, the "Bride" united in wedded bliss with the groom, unveiled and staring intently into the image of her Beloved. The last time I beheld this (on earth as it is in heaven) was in some the outpourings of the charismatic movement in the 70's.  If the Lord has called us to "herald" a coming wave, as David heralded Jerusalem, as Abraham heralded the promise tho he never saw it fulfilled(in earth)- so be it, But I have hope that since the unseen is greater than the visible, these unseen things will well up while I am yet able to rejoice in them!

"Work while it is still day, for the night comes, when no man can work".