Purpose of the Pauline writings?

[Universalist Catholic]

Many anti-Christian critics have stated that Paul made up new Legalisms that Jesus never taught.  Plus many Christian Denominations have used his epistles to justify certain things like sexism, chauvenism, hatred of homosexuals, the religious right, and mixing grace with law.  Im sure we all know that Paul widely spoke on Universal Salvation.  Now many sources state that the context was different, and giving counsel to individual churches.

[Nil Recurring]

Some of it was instruction to churches and some of it was broader teachings that apply to all Christians. I've found that many antitheists like to rip things out of context in their vain attempt to discredit Christian beliefs.

[jabcat]

Some of it was instruction to churches and some of it was broader teachings that apply to all Christians.

Agreed.  When rightly divided (hard to do) they reconcile.  IMO, many don't understand that Jesus' earthly ministry was primarily to a specific audience, about specific things - the kingdom, the Law and temple worship passing, the judgment of the Jewish nation, etc. - and foretelling His sacrifice.  Then after His death and resurrection, Paul was sent to us, the nations, to preach salvation by grace through faith - the Great Gift and really Good News - eventually to all! 

So when looked at in accurate context and proper perspective, it fits hand in glove. 

Blessings, James.

[redhotmagma]

Paul alone was given the revelation of mystery, Christ in us the hope of glory.  To complete the gospel.  Prior to the revelation, the gentiles were grafted on to the olive tree.  Now we are one new man.  And the ministry of reconcilliation.

Also with the bible in the incorrect order it makes it harder to understand Pauls teachings (and the bible as a whole).  In its proper order the concepts build one on another.  66 books, seems like a fleshly number.

[thinktank]

A lot of new christians are saying that Paul was a false apostle, an secret agent of Rome, a minister of satan, who came to abolish the words of holyness and turn the grace of Jesus into lasciviousness. The reason I think is because many false preachers and apostles, continually preach grace in the churches, only preaching one side/half of Pauls argument/message and ignoring the words of Jesus and John the baptist to repent of their sins and believe that Yeshua is the only begotten Son (word made flesh) of the Almighty Father.

While other Paul preachers make strict laws out of his teachings. When it comes to women not teaching etc I don't see the problem with it, but neither do I see a problem with pork, but for some reason pork has a reputation of being unclean meat, but yet Peter writes that every creature is good if eaten with thanksgiving. So maybe the same premise is concerning women who teach. That women are punished for Eves disobedience(Pauls words folks) therefore must submit to husbands and pastors and cannot preach the word of God(Paul :msealed:). But through grace, just as the pork, women are created good, so can be made clean, through prayer and fasting, or something like that.

[lomarah]

Hehehehehe
I went to a Bible university (learned a whole lot of false doctrine there...) anyhow, one time a few guys came to one of my professors all in an uproar because there was a girl speaking in chapel that day. He replied, "I'd rather hear from a girl who has something worthwhile to say than from a guy who's really saying nothing" lol they didn't like that very much. Not to derail the thread, TT's comment just reminded me of that.

Carry on!

[jabcat]

Paul alone was given the revelation of mystery, Christ in us the hope of glory.  To complete the gospel.  Prior to the revelation, the gentiles were grafted on to the olive tree.  Now we are one new man.  And the ministry of reconcilliation.

Also with the bible in the incorrect order it makes it harder to understand Pauls teachings (and the bible as a whole).  In its proper order the concepts build one on another.  66 books, seems like a fleshly number.

Good points, and with the "one new man" part, thanks for giving me something to think about  :)

After letting this roll around in my head a couple of day, here's how I understand that.

I believe the "one new man" pertains to the ecclesia, the ones given the faith to believe in this age;  and that can come from "every tribe and tongue";  including the Jewish religion/nation of which Paul was referring.  Still, it is currently only a portion of the whole.

I believe generally, the Jewish religion is still blinded, until the fullness of the Gentiles is come.

But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.  2 Cor. 3:14


I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."   Romans 11:25,26

One day, every knee will bow and every tongue confess.  Then the "one new man" will be made complete.   :2c:

[thinktank]

I believe the reason why Israel eventually turn to Jesus is because the scriptures say that the gentiles will bring them to jealousy of their mighty God.

The miracles of Jesus and the apostles did not convert the Jews, so perhaps what converts them is the Holiness and victory over sin that is displayed by the end time church and prophesied in Daniel, where Gods people will do exploits. Even thou Jesus also lived a holy life and the apostles, imagine the end time church, where hundreds of thousands are living holy lives, multiplied Holy power.


I might mention that I just watched a youtube video where a  most famous and hailed as wisest Rabbi, wrote down the name of the messiah Yeshuah on his death bed.

[lomarah]

  What rabbi was that?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ TT....yes he did. I posted that article on here a long time ago, but can't remember the thread name.....just passing thru..... :happygrin:

[WhiteWings]

The miracles of Jesus and the apostles did not convert the Jews,

Many Jews and Romans were converted. Before and even more after the cross.
The thing is that the Jews fell back a decade later.
Basicly they believed Jesus was the Messaiah. AND He would return and wipe out all Roman armies and be King. That didn´t happen so they concluded He was a false Messiah.

That´s what I´ve read.

(all sort of Christian and pagan misconceptions didn´t help either)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The biggest part of the early church was composed of converted Jews.

[redhotmagma]

Paul alone was given the revelation of mystery, Christ in us the hope of glory.  To complete the gospel.  Prior to the revelation, the gentiles were grafted on to the olive tree.  Now we are one new man.  And the ministry of reconcilliation.

Also with the bible in the incorrect order it makes it harder to understand Pauls teachings (and the bible as a whole).  In its proper order the concepts build one on another.  66 books, seems like a fleshly number.

Good points, and with the "one new man" part, thanks for giving me something to think about  :)

After letting this roll around in my head a couple of day, here's how I understand that.

I believe the "one new man" pertains to the ecclesia, the ones given the faith to believe in this age;  and that can come from "every tribe and tongue";  including the Jewish religion/nation of which Paul was referring.  Still, it is currently only a portion of the whole.

I believe generally, the Jewish religion is still blinded, until the fullness of the Gentiles is come.

But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ.  2 Cor. 3:14


I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."   Romans 11:25,26

One day, every knee will bow and every tongue confess.  Then the "one new man" will be made complete.   :2c:

Yes I agree with the one new man not being complete, although as I type this I have pause about that.  If the new man is all in Christ, and we are now considered seated at the right hand of the throne, even though we are not literally in body there, is it that all are already considered part of the new man, cus the deal is done in God's eyes, the rest is just a formality since He declares the end from the beginning and all.  (at this point my brain starts to get a little overheated trying to grasp 11 dimensional reality and not being constricted to time)

The other side of that is that those people who aren't called already are dead spiritually, and that would mean Christ's body would have dead members.  I wonder what stage of decay our fellow mans state of death is considered? " You will not permit Your Holy One to experience decay."  Is it within the three days Jesus body lay there?  Or is it possible that the last 2000 years of dead men walking correlates to two days in the tomb and the third day is about to arise, as the rest of His body is resurrected?

[Confident UR Christian]

Some parts of Paul's writings can be difficult to understand initially; however, it seems to me that any supposed 'prohibition' on women talking / having authority etc is actually a gross misinterpretation, and certainly not what Paul was referring to.

A good website (probably not universal reconciliation) addressing issues is http://godswordtowomen.org, where you can find many solutions to supposed gender inequalities.

For example, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, where there are the supposed 'keep silence' verses, is out of character with the rest of Paul's letter, where everyone is encouraged to pray and prophesy out loud. Indeed, once of the first deaconesses is Phoebe (Romans 16:1), and it is quite plausible that there were others. Therefore, and given how these verses do not make sense in the flow of the writing, it is reasonable to conclude that Paul here (as he does many other times in 1 Corinthians) is quoting what the church at Corinth said (i.e. maybe they were prohibiting women to speak), and then rebukes them for this in the following verses (NIV):

"36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38 But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.

39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way"

He exhorts the Corinthians to not follow their own ideas of not allowing women to speak, but to follow what Paul is writing to them: that is, to not forbid speaking in tongues (including for women, of course), and to allow women equality in speaking with men. A longer response is at http://www.godswordtowomen.org/Preato2.htm

In case anyone is interested, Katharine Bushnell's long response to the idea of covering the head (where she believes that the passage is supporting equality and giving women the right to uncover their heads) is at http://www.godswordtowomen.org/badge.htm

Also, for a response to the passage in Timothy, see http://www.godswordtowomen.org/fees.htm

For Jesus' ideas advocating better status and rights for women, see http://www.godswordtowomen.org/jesus.htm. There's even an article supporting the idea that, after Jesus' resurrection, Junia (mentioned in Romans 16:7) was made a female apostle (http://www.godswordtowomen.org/juniamcdonnell.htm)

Sorry, I have just given a few links without much expansion...

[WhiteWings]

Hi Curc,
More of the same.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/sanctuary_words_encouragement/the_law_spirit_8450.msg101629.html#msg101629
http://www.theexaminer.org/volume7/number6/speakers.htm