Early Church "Fathers" - A Witness or a Rebuttal?

[Cardinal]

Final score

ThinkTank 1 Cardinal 0

:cloud9: I think you cheated.  :winkgrin: :grin: :icon_jokercolor:

[eaglesway]

Peter was a perfect example of how what we know is not always what manifests in our fellowship with one another :o) Certain pressures can take us from the spirit into the flesh and we can "fall like lightning" out of the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
(Luk 22:31-32)

We can always turn again.... and strengthen one another ;o)

[redhotmagma]

Peter was a perfect example of how what we know is not always what manifests in our fellowship with one another :o) Certain pressures can take us from the spirit into the flesh and we can "fall like lightning" out of the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."
(Luk 22:31-32)

We can always turn again.... and strengthen one another ;o)

:thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

If Universal Salvation were heretical, how could the Church explain all those avowed Universalists who had already been made Saints (St. Clement of Alexandria , St. Macrina the Younger and her brother, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and others)?

WW: They were made saints before 553 AD.


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/how_hell_became_eternal_vincent.htm

[jabcat]

Thanks for all your work on this topic Tony.

Here's something else I ran across tonight;   :sigh:

Excerpt:

The History of Universalism

Church historians generally agree that
universalism first appeared in the
Alexandrian School, especially with
Origen (A.D. 185-254). Based on his belief
that God's ultimate purpose is to restore
the original unity in creation, Origen
taught that all of the condemned and even
the demons would eventually be brought,
through a time of "purifying" punishment,
into voluntary subjection to
Christ.17 Gregory of Nyssa, one of
Origen's followers, taught salvation for all
(including Satan!). Universalism was
eventually condemned by the Synod of
Constantinople in 543.


Wright notes that
the great majority of the 'hard sayings,'
the passages which warn most
clearly and unmistakeably of eternal
punishment, are found on the lips
of Jesus Himself. This is the point at
which the usual argument comes
dangerously close to cutting off the
branch it sits on. It says 'God is love':

The practice of judging God by human
standards returns at this point. Harold
Kuhn perceptively notes,
The supposed unthinkability of
eternal punishment rests, in general,
upon what we believe to be a
faulty human analogy. Universalists
tend to feel that the love of God
must be like human love, raised to
the nth power.68

full article here -  http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/sbjt/sbjt_1998summer2.pdf

[WhiteWings]

Thanks for all your work on this topic Tony.

Here's something else I ran across tonight;   :sigh:

That associate proffesor either is lying or got his degree with box cereal (killers  :winkgrin:) There is so much wrong about that article.....

Defining Universalism: "Wide is the Road that Leads to Life"

Tactictally leaving out "eternal".

Church historians generally agree that universalism first appeared in the Alexandrian School, especially with Origen (A.D. 185-254).

That's not what scholars agree on. Origen was a teacher at a very young age. He taught Universalism to wealthy people. He got noticed by bisschop and that Bisschop gave Origen a job in his church at the age of 18. Needless to say that little fact proves universalism predates Origen because that bishop wouldn't hire a heretic that goes contrary to his church teachings. Another bit of proof for that is

In the middle of the Second Century, say A.D. 141 to 156, a book entitled the "Shepherd," or
"Pastor of Hermas," was read in the churches, and was regarded as almost equal to the Scriptures. The
author was commissioned to write it by Clemens Romanus. Irenæus, Clement of Alexandria, Origen,
Eusebius and Athanasius quote from it, and rank it among the sacred writings.

Universalism was eventually condemned by the Synod of Constantinople in 543.

A synod without a roman emperor instead of a pope.

The Council Refused to Condemn Universalism.Even the influence of Justinian and his obsequious bishop, and his disreputable queen, failed to
force the measure through. The action of this local Synod has been incorrectly ascribed to the Fifth
OEcumenical Council, nine years later, which has also been inaccurately supposed to have
condemned Universalism, when it merely reprehended some of the vagaries of "Origenism"--
doctrines that even Origen himself never accepted, but that were falsely ascribed to him by ignorant
or malicious opponents; doctrines that no more resemble universal restoration, as taught by the
Alexandrine fathers, than they resemble Theosophy or Buddhism. So that, though the Home Synod
was called by the Emperor Justinian expressly to condemn Universalism, and was commanded by
imperial edict to anathematize it, and though it formulated fifteen canons, it refused to obey the
Emperor, and did not say one word against the doctrine the Emperor wished to anathematize. The
local council came to no decision. Justinian had just arbitrarily condemned the writings of Theodore
of Mopsuestia, and Theodoret, and a terrible controversy and division ensued, and Theodorus, of
Cesaræa, declared that both himself and Pelagius, who had sought the condemnation of Origen, ought
to be burnt alive for their conduct.6
In the Fifth General Council of 553 the name of Origen appears with others in the eleventh canon,
but the best scholars think that the insertion of his name is a forgery.Whether so or not, there is not a word referring to his views of human destiny. His name only
appears among the names of the heretics, like so, "Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris,
Eutyches, Origen and other impious men, and all other heretics who are condemned and
anathematized by the Catholic and Apostolical Church, etc." 7 The Fifth Ecumenical Council, which
was held nine years later than the local, neither condemned Origen by name, nor anathematized his
Universalism. The object of this council was to condemn certain Nestorian doctrines; and Gregory of
Nyssa, the most explicit of Universalists, is referred to with honor by the council, and as the denial of
endless punishment by Origen, and his advocacy of Universalism are not named, we cannot avoid the
conviction that the council was controlled by those who held, or at least did not repudiate
Universalism.
Great confusion exists among the authorities on this subject. The local council has been
confounded with the general. Hefele has disentangled the perplexities.
It was not even at that late day--three centuries after his death--the Universalism of Origen that
caused the hatred of his opponents, but his opposition to the Episcopizing policy of the church, his
insisting on the triple sense of the Word, etc., and the peculiar form of a mis-stated doctrine of the
restoration.8

Opinions in the Fourth Century.
The Council of Constantinople, A.D. 381, which perfected the Nicene Creed, was participated in
by the two Gregorys; Gregory Nazianzen presided and Gregory Nyssen added the clauses to the
Nicene creed that are in italics on a previous page in this volume. They were both Universalists.
Would any council, in ancient or modern times, composed of believers in endless punishment, select
an avowed Universalist to preside over its deliberations, and guide its "doctrinal transactions?" And
can anyone consistently think that Gregory's Universalism was unacceptable to the great council over
which he presided?" S

As late as A.D. 400, Jerome says "most people" ( plerique ). and Augustine "very many" (quam plurimi ), believed in Universalism, notwithstanding that the tremendous influence of Augustine, and the mighty power of the semi-pagan secular arm were arrayed against it.

[WhiteWings]

Roman emperors created RCC which was far different from the church they took with military force

Reread the part about the 553AD synod part very carefully. Think about the use of a altar in church. Think about why modern RCC is full with statues of Zeus, Apollo, etc.
Read one of the many articles Then do the math and spot the beast and it's decendants (all ET churches)
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

Just stating the obvious but even pre-Jesus Jews had UR views.

[eaglesway]

Reply number thirty by WW is excellent, no need to quote it. The real thing that cemented my pursuit and eventual understanding of UR was the historical study of the councils and the actions of the bishops against one another in them. Realizing that such carnal men currying favor with a carnal emperor could not be remotely trusted to declare any real truth. If you look at the source, and what it became, and what it produced over the centuries (martyrdom, oppression,all kinds of really weird strange doctrines) it becomes easy to see.

[WhiteWings]

Found a few quotes that belong in this thread.

Classic scholars know that the heathen hell was early copied by the Catholic church, and that almost its entire details afterwards entered into the creeds of Catholic and Protestant churches up to a century ago. Any reader may see this who will consult Pagan literature and writers on the opinions of the ancients. And not only this, but the heathen writers declare that the doctrine was invented to awe and control the multitude. Polybius writes: "Since the multitude is ever fickle there is no other way to keep them in order but by fear of the invisible world;
The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?

[jabcat]

hey that's cool.  do you know where/who those came from?

[WhiteWings]

The Niceo-Constantinopolitan Creed.
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of (heaven and earth, and) all things visible
and invisible, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father
before all worlds,) only begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father; God of God, Light of Light,
very God of Very God, begotten not made; being of one substance with the Father, by whom all
things were made, [transposed to the beginning] the things in heaven and things in earth. Who for us
men and for our salvation came down (from heaven) and was incarnate (of the Holy Ghost and the
Virgin Mary) and made man (and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate), and suffered (and was
buried), and rose again the third day (according to the Scriptures), who ascended into heaven (and
sitteth on the right hand of the Father) and cometh again (in glory) to judge quick and dead (of whose
kingdom there shall be no end). And in the Holy Ghost, (the Lord and giver of life, who proceedeth
from the Father, who with the Father and the Son, together is worshipped and glorified; who spake by
the prophets; in one holy Catholic, Apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission
of sins; and we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.)" 9
This last clause was not in the original Nicene creed, but was added in the Constantinopolitan. The
literal rendering of the Greek is "the life of the age about to come."
The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they
modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are
equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian
creed, and later, Origen himself declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond.
How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?

Catholic Hell Copied from Heathen Sources.
Classic scholars know that the heathen hell was early copied by the Catholic church, and that
almost its entire details afterwards entered into the creeds of Catholic and Protestant churches up to a
century ago. Any reader may see this who will consult Pagan literature 16 and writers on the opinions
of the ancients. And not only this, but the heathen writers declare that the doctrine was invented to
awe and control the multitude. Polybius writes: "Since the multitude is ever fickle there is no other
way to keep them in order but by fear of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to
me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the
gods and of the infernal regions." Seneca says: "Those things which make the infernal regions
terrible, the darkness, the prison, the river of flaming fire, the judgment seat, etc., are all a fable." Livy
declares that Numa invented the doctrine, "a most efficacious means of governing an ignorant and
barbarous populace." Strabo writes: "The multitude are restrained from vice by the punishments the
gods are said to inflict upon offenders, for it is impossible to govern the crowd of women and all the
common rabble by philosophical reasoning: these things the legislators used as scarecrows to terrify
the childish multitude." Similar language is found in Dionysius Halicarnassus, Plato, and other
writers. History records nothing more distinctly than that the Greek and Roman Pagans borrowed of
the Egyptians, and that some of the early Christians unconsciously absorbed, or studiously
appropriated, the doctrines of the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans concerning post-mortem
punishment, and gradually corrupted the "simplicity that is in Christ" 17 by the inventions of antiquity,
as from the same sources the Jews at the time of Christ had already corrupted their religion. 18 What
more natural than that the small reservoir of Christian truth should be contaminated by the opinions
that converts from all these sources brought with them into their new religion at first, and later that the
Roman Catholic priests and Pagan legislators should seize them as engines of power by which to
control the world?
Coquerel describes the effect of the irruption of Pagans into the early Christian church: "The, at
first, gradual entrance and soon rapid irruption of an idolatrous multitude into the bosom of
Christianity was not effected without detriment to the truth. The Christianity of Jesus was too lofty,
too pure, for this multitude escaped from the degrading cults of Olympus. The Pagans were not able
to enter en masse into the church without bringing to it their habits, their tastes, and some of their
ideas."19 Milman and Neander think20 that old Jewish prejudices could not be extirpated in the
proselytes of the infant church, and that latent Judaism lurked in it and was continued into the darker
ages. Chrysostom complains that the Christians of his time (the Fourth Century) were "half Jews."
Enfield 21 declares that converts from the schools of Pagan philosophy interwove their old errors with
the simple truths of Christianity until "heathen and Christian doctrines were still more intimately
blended and both were almost entirely lost in the thick clouds of ignorance and barbarism which
covered the earth. The fathers of the church departed from the simplicity of the apostolic church and
corrupted the purity of the Christian faith." Hagenbach reminds us that 22 "There were two errors
which the newborn Christianity had to guard against if it was not to lose its peculiar religious features,
and disappear in one of the already existing religions: against a relapse into Judaism on the one side,
and against a mixture with Paganism and speculations borrowed from it, and a mythologizing
tendency on the other." The Sibylline Oracles, advocating universal restoration; Philo, who taught
annihilation, and Enoch and Ezra, who taught endless punishment, were all read by the early
Christians, and no doubt exerted an influence in forming early opinions