To quote an ET pastor; who's also a Greek teacher

[PaoloNuevo]

He said, even if "basanizo" means touchstone in Revelation 14 and 20, there's a pretty slim chance that it could denote purification, because Basanos has a wide range of meanings; many of them denoting torture.

[Aleax]

Strong's Number:  928   basaniðzw
Word Origin: from (931)
Original Word: basaniðzw       
Transliterated Word: Basanizo       
Phonetic Spelling: bas-an-id'-zo
Parts of Speech: Verb
TDNT: 1:561,96

Definition
   
1.    to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2.    to question by applying torture
3.    to torture
4.    to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
5.    to be harassed, distressed
       a. of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

there's a pretty slim chance that it could denote purification

I disagree there, as "to test" is still the primary meaning of the word.

because Basanos has a wide range of meanings; many of them denoting torture.

Yepp, I'll give him that.

[PaoloNuevo]

I told him that even if basanizo means torture most of the time; I told him I've weighed my interpretation of the LOF with the other verses that teach universal salvation. However, I'm sure he's gonna go pedantic on me again and he wants me to "exegete" the verses so I can "properly divide the Word of Truth" (which is what we should do)... but he tends to go all academic on me...

[WhiteWings]

^ACVRev 14
10 he also himself will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which was mixed undiluted in the cup of his anger. And he will be tormented with fire and brimstone before the holy agents and before the Lamb.

Why are the Lamb and angels present? For how long?
Why did Jesus always used kolasin (corrective punishment) instead of timora (vindictive punishment)?
The touchstone seems to be in line with kolasin.

What is fire?
What is brimstone?
What is LoF?
Take a peek at this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/lake_fire_molten_sea_glass_laver_9507.msg123219.html#msg123219

[WhiteWings]

"exegete" the verses

A scholary term for mutalating the true meaning until it fits ones idea. :sigh:
I'm sure that pastor is unable to exegete in a unbiased way. And without that, exegis is a waste of time and nothing but self-deception.

but he tends to go all academic on me

Ain't that fun? For every opinion there is an opposite scholary opinion :sigh:
IIRC you mentioned 2 opposing views of on aion.
The best scholars are secular ones. They don't care what the word means because their game is finding the meaning of words not finding support for doctrines.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?84281-Revelation-14-11-A-look-at-BASANIZO-(torment)-and-THEION-(brimstone)

My ramblings in red.


Re: Revelation 14:11 - A look at BASANIZO (torment) and THEION (brimstone)   

   <blockquote> Originally posted by Gabriel ...he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb... - Revelation 14:10 (YLT)

Thayer's Lexicon lists the following as the primary meaning of the verb, BASANIZO (torment): "to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"

As the primary meaning of noun, THEION (brimstone), Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"

Friberg's Analytical Lexicon confirms this and states that THEION was "anciently regarded as divine incense to purify and prevent contagion."

E.W. Bullinger defined THEION as, "fire from heaven, (places touched by lightening were called "THEIA," as lightening leaves a sulphurous smell, and sulphur was used in heathen purification, it got the name of "THEION.")

This definition is corraborated by the Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon which defines the verb THEIOO thus:
"to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god"

This makes sense considering that THEION is the neuter singular of the adjective THEIOS, which means "divine." THEIOS is, of course, derived from THEOS, the word for 'God' or 'gods'.

When we add to this mix the image of fire, aren't we reminded of the common attestation to God as a purifying fire?

It seems evident, then, that to be "tormented with fire and brimstone" is to be tried and purified by Divine Fire.

Come, let us reason together. </blockquote> Yes, let's do reason together.

Here is my take:

The etymology of a word does not determine its meaning.

This is especially true with regard to the etymology of Greek words used in Revelation, wherein so much of the text consists of imagery from the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew rather than Greek.
Same for aion=Olam

The Greek being a rendering of the Hebrew, it is the meaning of the Hebrew words that determine the sense of the Greek text when the latter is reflecting the former.

The imagery in Revelation 14:10 was influenced by that of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:24; see also Isaiah 30:33 and Ezekiel 38:22).
Which will be restored to former glory. Eze 16:53-55

The term 'fire and sulphur (theion)' is imagery from the Hebrew texts in which theion in the LXX is a translation of [hebrew] גָּפְרִית [/hebrew] (gāph^erīth = sulphur), the etymology of which has absolutely no correspondence to the etymology of the Greek word theion — which, being a rendering of gāph^erīth, simply means 'sulphur' in Revelation 14:10.

Compare the smoke of foul-smelling burning sulphur in Revelation 14:10-11 with the prayers of the saints correlated with the smoke of sweet-smelling incense in Revelation 8:3-4.
God's breath is compared with brimstone. </blockquote>

[PaoloNuevo]

Thanks WW,

yeah I even asked him shouldn't I study Greek from an atheist or a secular scholar so there will be neither bias for UR or ET...

Oh, thanks for adding the Lightning flashes thing... I think I read that somewhere but didnt know it was "lightning from God"...

[WhiteWings]

Quotes from: Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume

kolázō/κολάζω [to cut short, punish],
kólasis/κόλασις [punishment]


kolázō. This means "to cut short," "to lop," "to trim," and figuratively a. "to impede," "restrain," and b. "to punish," and in the passive "to suffer loss." A common use is for divine chastisement. In inscriptions the deity punishes those who violate cultic laws. Some classical authors regard evil as divine retribution. Philo finds in beneficence and retribution the two primary powers of being, though God would rather forgive than punish, and punishes only those who are not amenable to reason. Punishment brings blessing by freeing from a false frame of soul. The NT uses kolázō in Acts 4:21 and 2 Pet. 2:9. Only the latter refers to God's punishment. The wicked will be under punishment between death and judgment, i.e., until their destiny is finally fixed.
kólasis. This word, meaning "punishment," is used for divine punishment in 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:9. In the NT it occurs in Mt. 25:46: Those who fail the practical ethical task will go away to eternal punishment. The only other instance is in 1 Jn. 4:18, which says that fear is its own punishment (cf. 3:18). This fear is driven out by love, which is free from every fear.
[J. Schneider, III, 814-17]

aiṓn/αιών [age, aeon],
aiṓnios/αιώνιος [eternal]

aiṓn.
A. The Nonbiblical Use. Meanings are a. "vital force," b. "lifetime," c. "age" or "generation," d. "time," and e. "eternity."
The term is used in philosophical discussions of time, usually for a span of time as distinct from time as such (chrónos), though for Plato it is timeless eternity in contrast to chrónos as its moving image in earthly time (cf. Philo). In the Hellenistic world Aiṓn becomes the name of the god of eternity.
B. aiṓn in the Sense of Prolonged Time or Eternity.
I. The Formulas "from Eternity" and "to Eternity."
a. The concepts of time and eternity merge in the use with prepositions suggesting indefinite time (Lk. 1:70; Acts 3:21; Jn. 9:32; Jude 13). Sometimes the meaning is "from a remote time" (Lk. 1:70; Jn. 9:32—"never"), but sometimes there is a strong hint of eternity (Lk. 1:55; Jn. 6:51). This is especially true of the plural (Mt. 6:13; Lk. 1:33; Rom. 1:25; Heb. 13:8; Jude 25; cf. also with a past reference 1 Cor. 2:7; Col. 1:26; Eph. 3:11). The double formula "for ever and ever" (Heb. 1:8), especially in the plural (in Paul and Revelation; cf. also Heb. 13:21; 1 Pet. 4:11), is designed to stress the concept of eternity, as are constructions like that in Eph. 3:21 ("to all generations for ever and ever").
b. The usage corresponds to that of the LXX (cf. Am. 9:11; Is. 45:17; Ps. 45:6), the only difference being intensification in the NT.
2. The Eternity of God.
a. aiṓn means eternity in the full sense when linked with God (Rom. 16:26; 1 Tim. 1:17; cf. Jer. 10:10).
b. In the OT this means first that God always was (Gen. 21:23) and will be (Dt. 5:23), in contrast to us mortals. By the time of Is. 40:28 this comes to mean that God is eternal, the "First and Last," whose being is "from eternity to eternity" (Ps. 90:2). Eternity is unending time, but in later Judaism it is sometimes set in antithesis to time. The NT took over the Jewish formulas but extended eternity to Christ (Heb. 1:10ff.; Rev. 1:17-18; 2:8). Here again eternity could be seen as the opposite of cosmic time, God's being and acts being put in terms of pre- and post- (1 Cor. 2:7; Col. 1:26; Eph. 3:9; Jn. 17:24; 1 Pet. 1:20).
C. aiṓn in the Sense of the Time of the World.
l. aiṓn as the Time of the World; the End of the aiṓn. In the plural the sense of aiōn is that of a stretch of time. In particular the word is used for the duration of the world. Thus the same term can signify both God's eternity and the world's duration (cf. the Parsee word zrvan). The doctrine of creation—an absolute beginning—underlay the distinction in use. aiṓn for time of the world occurs in the NT in the expression "end of the aeon" (Mt. 13:39 etc.). The plural in Heb. 9:26 and 1 Cor. 10:11 (aeons) represents no essential change; it merely indicates that the one aeon is made up of many smaller aeons, though as yet the word is not used for a particular period.
2. aiṓn as World. From "time of the world" aiṓn easily came to mean the "world" itself (cf. Mt. 13:22; 1 Cor. 7:33) with an equation of cosmos and aeon (1 Cor. 1:20; 2:6; 3:19). The plural can mean "worlds" along the same lines (Heb. 1:2; 11:3).
3. The Present and Future aiṓn.
a. If aiṓn means "duration of the world," and the plural occurs, the idea is obvious that eternity embraces a succession or recurrence of aeons (cf. Eccl. 1:9-10—though here the aeons are periods of the world, and the biblical concept of creation, and hence of the uniqueness of this aeon, ruled out the idea of an unending series).
b. Instead of recurrence the antithesis of time and eternity combined with the thought of plural aeons to produce the belief in a new and future aeon (or cosmos or kingdom) which will succeed this one but will be completely different from it. For the present and future aeons in the NT cf. Mk. 10:30; Lk. 16:8; Rom. 12:2; 1 Cor. 1:20; Gal. 1:4; 1 Tim. 6:17; Eph. 1:21; Heb. 6:5 (and with kairós instead of aiṓn, Jn. 8:23 etc.).
c. The NT took over this concept from Jewish apocalyptic, e.g., Ethiopian Enoch. Similar ideas occur in rabbinic writings and there is hope of a future age in Vergil. In the NT, however, the new aeon is not just future. Believers are already redeemed from this aeon (Gal. 1:4) and taste the powers of the future aeon (Heb. 6:5 which Christ has initiated with his resurrection.
D. The Personification of Aiṓn. Important in Hellenistic syncretism, the personification of Aiṓn is absent from the NT (except for a suggestion in Eph. 2:2).
aiṓnios. An adjective meaning "eternal," and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aiṓnios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps "unceasing"). For a more temporal use, see Rom. 16:25; Phlm. 15.
[H. Sasse, I, 197-209]
akatharsía, akáthartos → katharós; akaíros → kairós; ákakos → kakós; ákarpos → karpós; akátagnōstos → ginōskō; akatákritos → krínō; akatálytos → lýō; akatastasía, akatástatos → kathístēmi

básanos/βάσανος [torment],
basanízō/βασανίζω [to torment],
basanismós/βασανισμός [torment],
basanístḗs/βασανίστής [tormentor]

1. The básanos was originally used by inspectors of coins, then the word became a commercial term for checking calculations, later it was used figuratively for testing, and finally it came to signify putting to the test by torture.
2. The group is rare in the LXX, being used mainly a. for "testing afflictions" and b. for "judicial sufferings." basanízein occasionally means "to test" but mostly "to torment."
3. In the NT básanoi means "pains" in Mt. 4:24 and "torments" (of hell) in Lk. 16:23. basanízein means "to plague, torment" in Mt. 8:6 (the servant) and Mt. 8:29 (the demons). The boat is "battered" by the waves in Mt. 14:24. The reference in Rev. 12:2 is to "birth pangs." Lot's "torment" at the sight of wickedness is the point in 2 Pet. 2:8. basanismós occurs only in Revelation, and is actively the "torment" that comes on the race in 9:5 and passively the "suffering" of Babylon in 18:7ff. basanistḗs is used in Mt. 18:34, not for "tester,"' but for "tormentor."
[J. Schneider, I, 561-63]

^ACVMatthew 8
6 and saying, Lord, my boy has been laid down in the house, paralyzed, extremely tormented.

[WhiteWings]

Hi PN,

I copied this from another thread but I think it fits here as well. The thread got locked and I never got an answer on the blue part.



^KJVJohn 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Loved + Gave
Tense-Aorist    See [G5777]
Voice-Active    See [G5784]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]

Believeth
Tense-Present    See [G5774]
Voice-Active    See [G5784]
Mood -Participle    See [G5796]

Perish
Tense-Second Aorist    See [G5780]
Voice-Middle    See [G5785]
Mood -Subjunctive    See [G5792]



The most striking of them all is the middle voice of "Perish". It's for the persons own benefit.
I'm unable to see how classic hell benefits a person.
Perish sounds negative. We also are told it's best to not perish.
It is something negative that should be avoided if possible. But the persihing is not used as punishment.
The person is in a bad state and perish is a tool used for healing the person.
----
Love and especially Gave is interesting too.
Aorist tense is a bit strange because it's basicly no tense at all or a neutral tense.
The way I see it possibly can mean any combination of past, present and future. (Not completely accurate...)
We are told God loves the world several times so it's clear God at least loved in the past.
But it just as well can be an ongoing action. I think most believe so. Voice-Active seems to agree with that.
But what about "gave His Son"
That's exactly the same tense, voice and mood construction.
Does it mean Jesus is still being 'given' to us. I think that's the case but also think it's problematic for some because it can be reasoned Jesus is still on the cross. (Which I do not say)
Perhaps the Aorist is a bit to vague to draw firm conclusions.
But the above mentioned "perish" clearly is part of the verse. Perish looks into the future. So does the eternal (age-during) life.
So for me that means the aorist also looks into the future (+past and present)
And because "perish" is after judgement to me it means the love and sacrifice of Jesus also extents to the other life.
(http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/m2cents.gif)




Tense-Aorist
The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time.  There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a
number of categories by grammarians.  The most common of these
include a view of the action as having begun from a certain
point ("inceptive aorist"), or having ended at a certain point
("cumulative aorist"), or merely existing at a certain point
("punctiliar aorist").  The categorization of other cases can
be found in Greek reference grammars.

The English reader need not concern himself with most of these
finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases
they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation,
being fine points of Greek exegesis only.  The common practice
of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense should
suffice in most cases.


Tense-Second Aorist
The "second aorist" tense is identical in meaning and
translation to the normal or "first" aorist tense.  The only
difference is in the form of spelling the words in Greek, and
there is no effect upon English translation.


Voice-Active
The active voice represents the subject as the doer or
performer of the action.  e.g., in the sentence, "The
boy hit the ball, " the boy performs the action.


Voice-Middle
The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action
upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit.  E.g.,
"The boy groomed himself."  Many verbs which occur only in
middle voice forms are translated in English as having an
active sense; these are called "deponent" verbs, and do not
comply with the normal requirements for the middle voice.


Mood-Indicative
The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact.  If an
action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be
rendered in the indicative mood.


Mood-Participle
The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the
English participle, reflecting "- ing" or "- ed" being suffixed
to the basic verb form.  The participle can be used either
like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed
a "verbal noun."


Mood-Subjunctive
The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality.  The action described may or may not occur,
depending upon circumstances.  Conditional sentences of the
third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as
well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses,
such as those beginning with "hina."

[PaoloNuevo]

Basanos for coin inspectors?  :thumbsup:

Oh, this is also the first time I've heard "perish" is used in subjunctive mood. I know the subjunctive because of my Spanish classes... the conjugations differ from present indicative mood... so perish is without certainty?

Well, regardless of grammatical nuance I've always thought perish in Jn 3: 16 could also refer to perishing in our sins. To set the life of the flesh is death and ruin; on the Spirit is life and peace...

but for some reason people always read into it eternal doom or annihilation.

[WhiteWings]

I understand it a bit different....

The perishing is a fact for some groups. If one fits in that group there is no way of escaping it.
But check out "voice middle".... for his own good.
That was the reason I quoted the definition here. It gives a, imo,  very special twist to the whole verse.
How can eternal torture be of benefit to the person in hell?

Basanos for coin inspectors?

Yeah, the source is a repected lexicon. Assuming we are talking about gold/silver coins it isn't much difference than the usual Thayer/Strong defenition quoted on this forum.
But 'coin' perhaps has more theological depth that just 'gold'. Sins have to be payed to the last cent. Tormented then means Jesus is a coin inspector.

The básanos was originally used by inspectors of coins, then the word became a commercial term for checking calculations, later it was used figuratively for testing, and finally it came to signify putting to the test by torture.

I would like to see a timeline of that. What did it mean during Jesus' life?

To be fair the verse below don't sound like coin testing. They also show during Jesus' time other meanings were used. (assuming the Hebrew-Greek translation caught all teh nuances in Jesus' words)

In the NT básanoi means "pains" in Mt. 4:24 and "torments" (of hell) in Lk. 16:23. basanízein means "to plague, torment" in Mt. 8:6 (the servant) and Mt. 8:29 (the demons). The boat is "battered" by the waves in Mt. 14:24. The reference in Rev. 12:2 is to "birth pangs." Lot's "torment" at the sight of wickedness is the point in 2 Pet. 2:8. basanismós occurs only in Revelation, and is actively the "torment" that comes on the race in 9:5 and passively the "suffering" of Babylon in 18:7ff. basanistḗs is used in Mt. 18:34, not for "tester,"' but for "tormentor."


^CLVMatt 4
24 And forth came the tidings of Him into the whole of Syria. And they bring to Him all who have an illness, those with various diseases and pressing torments, also demoniacs and epileptics and paralytics, and He cures them.

[WhiteWings]

PN,

Short article. Especially the last chapter is on-topic: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeofFire-Eby.htm

[PaoloNuevo]

yeah, I've read Eby before.. thanks!

CLVMatt 4
24 And forth came the tidings of Him into the whole of Syria. And they bring to Him all who have an illness, those with various diseases and pressing torments, also demoniacs and epileptics and paralytics, and He cures them.

:thumbsup: