Signs, Symbols, and Pagans oh my

[WhiteWings]

A lot to read but one thing is clear; scholars are far less certain about the word God and/or gods as the church leaders who base a doctrine on their disputed translations.
It's not even clear if some words should be translated as 'fear' instead of God.

Albright has suggested that the use of this majestic plural comes from the tendency in the ancient near east toward a universalism:  :Chinscratch:

[Molly]

We note first the use of El in terms denoting God's greatness or superiority over all other gods: ha'ēl haggādôl "the great El" (Jer 32:18; Ps 77:13 [H 14]; 95:3); hā'ēl 'ōsēh pele' "El doing wonders" (Ps 77:14 [H 15]); 'ēl 'ēlı̂m "El of els" ("God of gods," Dan 11:36); 'ēl 'ĕlōhê hārûḥôt lĕkol-bāśār "El, the God of the spirits of all flesh" (Num 16;22; 27:16).

We know he has many names that describe him.  Pele=Wonderful.

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:5-7


the GodH410 of gods,H410
--Dan 11:36

[redhotmagma]

H0413  el
spelled the same as El, another 4th word?

[redhotmagma]

Quote from: thinktank on June 21, 2011, 02:21:41 PM
Quote from: reFORMer on June 20, 2011, 08:18:58 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 20, 2011, 08:09:28 PM from another post
God said that eating the tree of good and evil, made man as one of Us.

How can presuming being like God be a bad thing, when He spoke it 

God's already revealed purpose was to make mankind in His image and likeness.  The devil proposed it was to be accomplished by disobedience.

Yes. In fact the subtlety of the serpent was even more subtle than I have been told. Many of the things the serpent said I have found to be scriptural truth.
scriptural truth embedded in a lie.  Or a lie embedded in the truth.

Molly:
Even today, those that run the world, always have to embed the truth in a lie  The truth is always there for those who seek it.  They are following some law that requires them to do this.

Thought this was relevant

[WhiteWings]

H0413  el
spelled the same as El, another 4th word?

Two letters and even the spelling isn't sure  :winkgrin:
Unlike the 4th word this one 'seems to have  a clear meaning. (and nothing divine)




אל
l'e  /  'êl  /  'el
BDB Definition:
1) to, toward, unto (of motion)
2) into (limit is actually entered)
2a) in among
3) toward (of direction, not necessarily physical motion)
4) against (motion or direction of a hostile character)
5) in addition to, to
6) concerning, in regard to, in reference to, on account of
7) according to (rule or standard)
8) at, by, against (of one's presence)
9) in between, in within, to within, unto (idea of motion to)
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: primitive particle
Same Word by TWOT Number: 91



91 אֶל ('el) unto, into, beside, against, in reference to. (ASV, RSV are generally the same but varying in the specific English preposition used due to differing interpretations.)
The preposition expresses primarily motion toward someone or something. As such, it occurs in a wide variety of contexts expressing motion, attitude, direction, or location.
Physical motion "toward" is the primary concept expressed by this preposition with numerous examples (e.g. Gen 1:9; 14:7). The motion sometimes carries "into" that which is approached, as in Gen 6:18 "into the ark."
Closely akin is the concept of mental motion as seen in God's grief "into" his heart (Gen 6:6).
We see also its use to express motion toward, in the sense of "in reference to," a kind of unseen gesture (Gen 20:2) where Abraham speaks "in reference to" his wife, not "to" her (cf. also I Sam 3:21, "in reference to" the ark being taken).
At times the sense of motion is lost altogether and the description of a state or condition prevails, e.g. Gen 24:11, "by a well"; or II Sam 14:30, "by mine" rather than "unto mine." For this reason, apparently, the preposition came to be interchangeable with 'al at times, e.g. Gen 22:12, "upon the lad"; Josh 5:14, "upon his face." This interchange of 'al and 'el may have occurred in the living language but may partly be due to scribal changes. It was assisted by the circumstance that Aram has no 'el and uses 'al (from 'ālal "go in") in the sense of Hebrew 'el; cf. BDB, p. 41.
Finally, the preposition can also mean "against," although motion toward is evident, as in Gen 4:8, where Cain "rose up against Abel." Here 'el no doubt retains something of the original sense of both physical and mental motion toward.

[WhiteWings]

Albright has suggested that the use of this majestic plural comes from the tendency in the ancient near east toward a universalism:

Who understands that quote?

[redhotmagma]

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Nephilim.html

BDB Theological Dictionary adds a very interesting note, although, in its signature grumpy style, pronounces any etymology 'dubious' and 'precarious' : The words for Nephilim,  and  bear a striking resemblance to Nephila, the Aramaic word for Orion:  and .

The Nephilim are the Orionids.

Another name that may have to do with the constellation Orion is that of the Casluhim.

Orion=Nimrod=Nephilim?

[sheila]

 yeah,a mighty hunter in opposition to God came forth..Ezekiel 13;18

     nOW SON OF MAN SET YOUR FACE AGAINST THE DAUGHTERS OF YOUR PEOPLE WHO PROPHESY OUT OF THEIR OWN IMAGINATION,PROPHESY AGAINST

  THEM AND SAY,'THIS IS WHAT THE SOVERIEGN LORD SAYS,WOE TO THE WOMEN WHO SEW MAGIC CHARMS ON ALL THEIR WRISTS,AND MAKE

  VEILS OF VARIOUS LENGTHS FOR THEIR HEADS..IN ORDER TO ENSNARE/HUNT PEOPLE. WILL YOU HUNT THE SOULS OF MY PEOPLE BUT PRESERVE YOUR OWN


   ORION HAS BEEN NAME THE TRUE SHEPHERD OF ANU..AND WAS LINKED TO THE LAST GREAT pHAROAH

[thinktank]

http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Nephilim.html

BDB Theological Dictionary adds a very interesting note, although, in its signature grumpy style, pronounces any etymology 'dubious' and 'precarious' : The words for Nephilim,  and  bear a striking resemblance to Nephila, the Aramaic word for Orion:  and .

The Nephilim are the Orionids.

Another name that may have to do with the constellation Orion is that of the Casluhim.

Orion=Nimrod=Nephilim?

Funny but some alleged alien beings claim to be from the constellation of Orion.

[eaglesway]

yeah,a mighty hunter in opposition to God came forth..Ezekiel 13;18

     nOW SON OF MAN SET YOUR FACE AGAINST THE DAUGHTERS OF YOUR PEOPLE WHO PROPHESY OUT OF THEIR OWN IMAGINATION,PROPHESY AGAINST

  THEM AND SAY,'THIS IS WHAT THE SOVERIEGN LORD SAYS,WOE TO THE WOMEN WHO SEW MAGIC CHARMS ON ALL THEIR WRISTS,AND MAKE

  VEILS OF VARIOUS LENGTHS FOR THEIR HEADS..IN ORDER TO ENSNARE/HUNT PEOPLE. WILL YOU HUNT THE SOULS OF MY PEOPLE BUT PRESERVE YOUR OWN


   ORION HAS BEEN NAME THE TRUE SHEPHERD OF ANU..AND WAS LINKED TO THE LAST GREAT pHAROAH

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte(hunters), and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
(Mat 23:15)

This sounds like the pastors of today, hunting proselytes to preserve their own lives. Hirelings. Wastrels. Unrighteous stewards. Nimrods, building towers. At war with their neighbors. Cain, Korah, Ballam all come to mind.

[redhotmagma]

The standard line of thought among secularists is that religion proceeded from local tribal deities coming from nature worship first, then becoming more organized, more sophisticated.  As civilization progressed animism gave way to idolaltry, those idols then coalesced as cultures came together, eventually leading to Monotheism, and finally atheism.  Thus the symbols in the Bible were borrowed from pagans.

A lot of these concepts were arising simultaneously in the cultures surrounding the Israelites.  It's not so much that they were borrowing from each other, but that they were given similar and progressive revelation.

Molly could you expand on this:     given similar progressive revelation

That was the original question that started this study for me.

[WhiteWings]

Zoroaster: The First Universalist
Iranian Unitarian Universalists

[sheila]

 a lot of the old mythology 'gods' are about the fallen angels that took wives of earthly women. bringing forth seed of error.having been in heaven formerly they had some

knowledge,and used and perverted it to secure 'worship' for themselves. Abrahm being called out of Ur of the Chaldeans[idols]..by the true God,comes to my

mind. The tower of Babylon also comes to mind...satan is a great imitator of the TRuE GOD, and has alway coveted His worship,power and throne

   man has given a lot of worship to what he knows not,thinking of Jesus' words to the samaritan woman and their worship
]

     john 17;25  Righteous Father,though the world does not know you,I know you,and they know that you have sent me,I HAVE MADE YOU KNOWN

   TO THEM,AND WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE YOU KNOWN,IN ORDER THAT THE LOVE YOU HAVE FOR ME MAY BE IN THEM,AND THAT I,MYSELF

   MAY BE IN THEM

  coming to know Him/GOOD is complicated when evil  is present,and calls good evil and evil good.  When someone aspires to do good unto us,and it is perceived

as an evil 'done unto us'  makes relationship difficult. O that wiley serpent that conspires to seperate us from GOOD

[WhiteWings]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread139336/pg1

[lomarah]

a lot of the old mythology 'gods' are about the fallen angels that took wives of earthly women. bringing forth seed of error.having been in heaven formerly they had some

knowledge,and used and perverted it to secure 'worship' for themselves. Abrahm being called out of Ur of the Chaldeans[idols]..by the true God,comes to my

mind. The tower of Babylon also comes to mind...satan is a great imitator of the TRuE GOD, and has alway coveted His worship,power and throne

   man has given a lot of worship to what he knows not,thinking of Jesus' words to the samaritan woman and their worship
]

     john 17;25  Righteous Father,though the world does not know you,I know you,and they know that you have sent me,I HAVE MADE YOU KNOWN

   TO THEM,AND WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE YOU KNOWN,IN ORDER THAT THE LOVE YOU HAVE FOR ME MAY BE IN THEM,AND THAT I,MYSELF

   MAY BE IN THEM

  coming to know Him/GOOD is complicated when evil  is present,and calls good evil and evil good.  When someone aspires to do good unto us,and it is perceived

as an evil 'done unto us'  makes relationship difficult. O that wiley serpent that conspires to seperate us from GOOD

How true!!!!

[redhotmagma]

 http://www.iranica.com/articles/zoroaster-iii-zoroaster-in-the-avesta
Other verses from the Younger Avesta give a comparable interpretation of Zaraθuštra: Y. 70.1 (cf. Vr. 2.3) mentions Zaraθuštra and Ahura Mazdā together as ratus who are worshipped together; in Y 42.2 (cf. Vr.21.2) the community—referring to themselves as "we"—worships Ahura Mazdā and Zaraθuštra side by side. From such lines we can deduce for the Younger Avesta that Zaraθuštra was conceived as no longer on the level of common humans, but close to the yazatas, worthy of praise and worship (cf. Y. 3.21).


From the Avestan texts we thus can deduce a rough outline of some biographical data of Zaraθuštra, provided that we accept that the Old Avestan texts reflect some (faint) knowledge about a historical person, Zaraθuštra by name (but cf. below). For the Younger Avestan texts it is remarkable that they already present another "Zaraθuštra" to us, namely a quasi-mythological hero who is on par with spiritual beings, but no longer a historical figure. Thus for further considerations about Zaraθuštra's time and homeland we have to refer primarily to the Old Avestan texts.

In Origins of pagan Idolatry he talks about 2 zoroasters.  Similar to 2 buddhas.  One the historical around 500 BC?  The other being the mythological who is the founder of the original false religion, Thoth=buddha=hermes=brahma=cush

Either he is worthy of worship, like Jesus (I reject this view) or his followers deified him (actually called daimonized, the original daemon/daimon/demon is deified humans).  Or he falsely led them to worship him.

As a note, this is the same type of argument used against biblical historicity/truth.  In the article they mention that Moses is similar to Zoroaster in that they can't be found in history outside of religious texts.

[WhiteWings]

Zoaraster was a student of Daniel during the Jewish exile.
I've never seen the slightest hint that Moses wasa student of Daniel and that they lived in at teh same time.

BTW it seems Zoarastism is a UR teaching. From that we can conclude Daniel taught UR....
http://bdsda.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/untimely-figs/

[redhotmagma]

WW

sorry, I'm not equating Moses with Zoroaster, just the argument that he is fictional is because there is no reference to him outside of scripture, as a side note.  I'm not agreeing with that argument, in fact it makes me want to disagree with it just because it is the same argument even though I know this much ' ' about zoroaster.

I'd be interested to see if there's any other evidence that Z was a pupil of Daniel.  1100 is kind of late, especially if there is no other references.

[WhiteWings]

I'll search again Red.I didn't have much luck a year again when I first posted the article.
The man was an historian so he likely had some documents...

[sheila]

 WW

   BRING WHAT YOU FIND..IT SHOULD BE INTERESTING...BUT LET'S NOT FORGET,DANIEL WAS TEN TIMES BETTER AT IT THENALL

THE MAJICIANS AND ENCHANTERS[DAN 1;20]  AND THIS DAN 12;4 BUT YOU DANIEL,CLOSE UP AND SEAL THE WORDS UNTIL THE

  TIME OF THE END

[redhotmagma]

Interesting you say that Sheila, cus the link WW posted is a branch Davidian guy.  Koresh believed himself to be the branch that would open the seven seals.  He also saw himself as another lamb.  It seems to me he is equating himself with zoroaster in a sense, somewhat akin to an avatar.

[WhiteWings]

I calculated he 77.7 times better :-)

Some relevant links.
I filtered my selection a bit for Christian eyes.... but you may find things you oppose.
http://wotantue.us/Myth/Zoro.html
Influence on other religions and societies.

As specified above, Zoroastrianism is thought to have greatly influenced Judaism, specifically through the prophet Daniel's close association with the Achaeamenid kings (Cambyses I, Cyrus the Great, Cambyses II and Darius the Great). Two locations claim Daniel's tomb. One, in Kirkuk, is venerated by the Iraqi Kurds who see Daniel as a great man who both served and influenced their Zoroastrian ancestors. The other is in Susa, the former king seat of Darius the Great, in southwestern Iran; a place where Daniel is known to have lived when he was in Darius' service as an adviser to his court.

It is interesting to note that Iranians still lay flowers on Daniel's tomb. They do the same with the tomb of Esther, the Jewish wife of Xerxes the Great. They are aware that the founder of Iran, Cyrus the Great, returned the tribe of Judah from their enslavement in Babylon to the city of Jerusalem, along with the funds to rebuild their temple and a promise of protection; a promise which he and his predecessors kept until their overthrow by Alexander the Great two centuries later.

http://www.the-environmentalist.org/2007/08/zoroastrianisms-influence-on-judaism.html

http://www.ramsheadpress.com/messiah/PDF/CHAPTER05.pdf
"The ancient rabbinical views are nearly 180 degrees in opposition to those of
modern rabbis. However, the vast majority of modern Jews have never been taught
the ancient views. An examination of those ancient writings reveals that the
messianic 'status quo' spoken of by Samuel Levine never existed...The messianic
beliefs found in the Talmud and the Midrashim represent the majority opinions of
the various rabbinical academies. As we examine these views we will see that the
Christian beliefs regarding the birth, character, mission and destiny of the Messiah
are in most cases identical to those of the ancient rabbinical ones. Therefore, the
ancient rabbinical beliefs were not changed but embraced by the Christians. The
burden of proof, therefore, rests on modern rabbinical scholarship to explain their
radically different view of the Messiah!"3
Mark Eastman, M.D., The Search for Messiah
....
THE INTEREST OF THE ZOROASTRIAN PERSIAN
MAGI IN THE MESSIAH'S STAR WAS INSPIRED BY
THEIR LEADER, A STUDENT OF DANIEL

[WhiteWings]

http://tribes.tribe.net/zoroastrianism/thread/37cf33de-31c6-474c-8e55-46403e29e4ea

The Magi were Zoroastrian – whether "traditional" or not is debatable – I'm a modern day "Zoroastrian" and I believe Jesus is the Messiah. The Magi learned of Christ from traditional Cosmology – descended from Daniel or Zoroaster – or others more ancient than either of them.

[sheila]

 PROBLEMWAS,THAT 'KNOWLEDGE' RESULTED IN THOSE THAT WOULD SEEK TO KILL THE MANCHILD, BECOMING AWARE OF HIS LOCATION.

  FOILED BY fATHER,OF COURSE...AND WARNED OFF FROM REPORTING TO HEROD. RESULTING IN A LOT OF INFANT SONS BEING PUT TO DEATH

   I'M SURE THAT WAS NOT THEIR INTENTION,WHEN THEY SOUGHT TO HONOUR HIM

    DAN 12;9 GO YOUR WAY DANIEL,BECAUSE THE WORD IS CLOSED UP AND SEALED UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END.MANY WILL BE PURIFIED

  AND MADE SPOTLESS AND REFINED,BUT THE WICKED WILL CONTINUE TO BE WICKED.NONE OF THE WICKED WILL UNDERSTAND

   V 13  AS FOR YOU GO YOUR WAY TO THE END,YOU WILL REST,AND AT THE END OF YOUR DAYS YOU WILL RISE TO RECEIVE

  YOUR ALL LOT ED INHERITANCE

[redhotmagma]

http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess042.htm

This is an article about progressive revelation.  Finally found it, kind of what kickstarted me toward this thread.

All people who lived from the time of the creation of Adam and Eve until the 99th year of Abraham's life (a period of about 2000 years) lived in what we can call Phase One. Prior to the Abraham's 99th year (the year that Abraham was given the covenant of circumcision by God and when Abraham became the "Father of the Faithful"), people on earth were given only the most primitive of spiritual laws by which they could worship God. Other than what became known as the Noachian Laws (regarding eating blood, murdering humans, etc.), God allowed mankind of all races to worship Him in the way that best suited them. The only requirements for obedience were the simple ones given to Adam and Eve. The only covenants were the covenant of the rainbow (Genesis 9:8–17) and also the marriage covenant of promise to the "Barren Woman" of Isaiah 54 to 55:5 (see especially verse 54:10). 1

As for today, all people who DO NOT claim to have Abraham as their "Father" fall into this first and primary category. They would include the Hindus, the Buddhists, Shintoists, all those practicing primitive animistic religions, and all other pagan religions. That means that a full half of the human family still fits into this Phase One of spiritual development, even today. God allows all of them to experience "good and evil [bad]" (Genesis 3:22) within this first stage environment. They are all gaining familiarity with "good and evil [bad]."

This is one of the main reasons God placed mankind on earth with such a short life span. The pre-Flood patriarchs had longer lives, but were not exposed to as much "evil." God limits our experience to an average of seventy years. In this first phase of spiritual development, all humans receive practice in the consequences of "good and evil."There will still be many people on earth in India, China, and other areas that will be in Phase One.


He goes on to detail the 7 stages with the Revelation of Mystery being the final.