Hello

[JusThis]

I grew up in Christian family with a very orthodox view of salvation, hell, etc.  I am 63 years old and when I was in my 50's I came to a point where the idea of a so-called loving God who, nevertheless, condemns at least 95% of humanity to eternal torture in hellfire to no longer be acceptable in my mind.  I prayed earnestly for understanding and sought out more information on the internet and found I was not alone in my concern.  And, as a clear answer to prayer, I discovered Christian Universalism or Reconciliation as some may prefer.  So, I have been exploring the subject of Christian universalism or reconciliation for quite a few years.  In the course of those years I have learned quite a bit about the subject.  One of the books I feel had a most important influence on my beliefs was The Inescapable Love of God, by Tom Talbott.  I have since  read many of the posts within this forum, but not recently.  Actually, I thought I was already a member, but I had to register (again?).  Anyway, I'm back.  I have read and participated in a number of similar forums as well.  The greatest concern I have noted with some Christian universalists is that they sometimes do not have an orthodox view of the Trinity.  I believe in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit--three-in-one, co-equal, but with different roles, if you will--just as orthodox as anyone.  I am curious to know whether or not Gary Amirault, et. al. share the same view.  I have argued this position with a number of other forum participants and found a wide variety of views--some even believe Jesus was the archangel Michael prior to His incarnation.  This, to me, is utter nonsense.  Christ is Word made flesh.  The same Word who created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.  Recently, I have read Love Wins, by Rob Bell.  This book has been widely criticized by the "orthodox" Christian evangelical folks, but I found there was very little in it with which I did not agree.  Rob Bell claims he is not a universalist, but he clearly shows he is a Christian universalist in the book, without actually saying so.  I recommend the book.

[jabcat]

Hi JusThis.  Thanks for the good introduction.  Blessings to you.

I'm not "getting on you", but am responding to your direct statements/questions about the Trinity.  There are varying beliefs regarding that on the forum, and what we've found is that it's one of the topics (along with free will/all sovereign) that historically leads to strife and division on the forum.  Gary's main focus is to introduce those searching and/or those having been harmed by orthodoxy's hell and damnation to find and better understand Biblical Christian Ultimate Reconciliation.  He doesn't want anything to distract from that, and those 2 topics have repeatedly done so, when just let go with abandon.  So basically, brief mentions, or, even ongoing discussion about Who God Is, how He works, what the scriptures say etc. are encouraged, yet without getting into spitting contests about terms/labels - i.e., Trinity, free will, all sovereign, etc.  It takes some thought and effort to stick to what the scriptures actually say, but if one thinks about it, that's probably a good plan anyway :) 

There's further information about it under the FAQ's etc. under the "Important - Forum Notice by Admin" section.

Anyway, welcome, enjoy your time here.  James.

[thinktank]

Wow you found out about Rob bell fast. We have discussed about Rob bell recently on this forum, you might want to check out the threads.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Welcome to the forum....I hope you enjoy your stay here.  :thumbsup:

[Pierac]

I grew up in Christian family with a very orthodox view of salvation, hell, etc.  I am 63 years old and when I was in my 50's I came to a point where the idea of a so-called loving God who, nevertheless, condemns at least 95% of humanity to eternal torture in hellfire to no longer be acceptable in my mind.  I prayed earnestly for understanding and sought out more information on the internet and found I was not alone in my concern.  And, as a clear answer to prayer, I discovered Christian Universalism or Reconciliation as some may prefer.  So, I have been exploring the subject of Christian universalism or reconciliation for quite a few years.  In the course of those years I have learned quite a bit about the subject.  One of the books I feel had a most important influence on my beliefs was The Inescapable Love of God, by Tom Talbott.  I have since  read many of the posts within this forum, but not recently.  Actually, I thought I was already a member, but I had to register (again?).  Anyway, I'm back.  I have read and participated in a number of similar forums as well.  The greatest concern I have noted with some Christian universalists is that they sometimes do not have an orthodox view of the Trinity.  I believe in God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit--three-in-one, co-equal, but with different roles, if you will--just as orthodox as anyone.  I am curious to know whether or not Gary Amirault, et. al. share the same view.  I have argued this position with a number of other forum participants and found a wide variety of views--some even believe Jesus was the archangel Michael prior to His incarnation.  This, to me, is utter nonsense.  Christ is Word made flesh.  The same Word who created the heavens and the earth and everything in them.  Recently, I have read Love Wins, by Rob Bell.  This book has been widely criticized by the "orthodox" Christian evangelical folks, but I found there was very little in it with which I did not agree.  Rob Bell claims he is not a universalist, but he clearly shows he is a Christian universalist in the book, without actually saying so.  I recommend the book.

Thomas Talbott in the book "Universal Salvation? The Current Debate". States, the whole thrust of Jesus's teaching, moreover, pointed in the same direction. He categorically rejected the
prevailing understanding of the retaliatory justice.

Mat 5:38  "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right
cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him
two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.,

the prevailing understanding of limited forgiveness...
Mat 18:21  Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22  Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you
seven times, but seventy times seven.

and the prevailing understanding of a limited obligation to love

Mat 5:43  "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45  so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Why, according to Jesus, are we to love our enemies as well as our friends? So that we might be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect Why should there be no limit to our forgiveness?  So that we might be perfect as even our Father in heaven is perfect. Why must we forsake retaliation of a retributivist kind?  So that we might be perfect for even as our Father in heaven is perfect.  As I see it, then, we have here overwhelming evidence that God, as Jesus understood him, never ceases to love his own enemies, never ceases forgiving them, and sees no ultimate justice in punishment of the retributivist kind. The idea that we are expected to be better than God is unthinkable.

:thumbsup:
Paul