Do we only know "in part" ?

[Sarah]

These gifts are done away in the assembly...as that is the context of the Love chapter....when the assembly is a mature man, whole, healed, knowing; and therefore loving one another...isn't that the definition of being healed?

Why would I need to prophesy, if the Christ in you were a man already knowing all?

Why would I need to speak in tongues, if the Christ in you already knew the mystery?

Why administer the gift of healing, if you were healed.


Do we know all?  Are we all healed? I'm not and if we are all honest, none of us are.  I need the healing of the leaves, every joint of supply.  I would be sorely dissappointed if their was no body to administer to me those things I can't administer to myself.  And how inadiquate I would feel if the only medicine I had for someone was convincing them of the head knowledge of Jesus being the son of God.

I understand pre-terism, and agree with it, but it isn't the end of the story....it's the beginning.

[SeekerSA]

:goodpost: Sarah nicely summarized

Blessings

[joian]

The Word reveals the Spirit first, for without the foundation of the Word in us, the Spirit will not manifest itself very much, because the Spirit comes to perform the Word.

The order of that revealing is reversed at a certain point, according to the timing and will of the Workman. Then the Spirit, once it's nature is revealed thru the Word begins to reveal itself more, both as the hidden Word, and in manifestations in gifts, dreams and visions. 

Well that is the first time I have seen written what is happening............

These gifts are done away in the assembly...as that is the context of the Love chapter....when the assembly is a mature man, whole, healed, knowing; and therefore loving one another...isn't that the definition of being healed?

Why would I need to prophesy, if the Christ in you were a man already knowing all?

Why would I need to speak in tongues, if the Christ in you already knew the mystery?

Why administer the gift of healing, if you were healed.

[Kratos]

I agree with the premise, but do not agree we are there yet. Read it again:

Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16  From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm. But, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.

John

[Loveroftruth]

I think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm. But, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.

John

John,

Could it be that we have read this with the thought that it is a corporate thing that happens all at one time? Could it be possible that we get there individually one by one? i.e John comes to a season where he no longer needs a prophetic word becuase God wants to be your word, and you find you longer need a teacher, and you find when you are sick, it is God who has a different plan..... but Sally next door still needs all these things.....



I have to say in my walk I cant ignore how much it has changed for me...

[hopeful]

I've thought about this too, Christine.  Not a mass happening but one by one...

[SeekerSA]

I don't know why but this song came up in my spirit

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

[hopeful]

Cool 

[Cardinal]

I think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm. But, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.

John

John,

Could it be that we have read this with the thought that it is a corporate thing that happens all at one time? Could it be possible that we get there individually one by one? i.e John comes to a season where he no longer needs a prophetic word becuase God wants to be your word, and you find you longer need a teacher, and you find when you are sick, it is God who has a different plan..... but Sally next door still needs all these things.....



I have to say in my walk I cant ignore how much it has changed for me...

:cloud9: I think the thought of it being a corporate thing, sort of "grandfathered" itself in with the rapture false doctrine.......

[Sarah]

I think that it is extremely premature to believe that we have ALL come to the unity of the faith or to the fulness of the stature of Christ. I totally agree that when Tabernacles is fully manifested, these gift ministries will no longer be needed. When we have been changed and are like Him spirit and soul and body, we will no longer need the in part realm.

If a group of believers grew through each joint of supply within the body, and came to the unity of faith...then they would no longer need the 'in part' in the assembly amongst themselves.  Does Jesus need to be healed?  Does He need a word of Knowledge?  But still, those they minister to would need the 'in part'.  

Could it be possible that we get there individually one by one?

Where 2 or 3 are gathered is where we see Christ in the mirror...it can't be a one-man show.  It's in the design...we are not all an eye.   :HeartThrob:

But, i have heard a lot of men claim to be manifested Sons, but yet to see one walk through a wall or ascend into Heaven and return except for Jesus.

Jesus didn't flaunt himself, it seems He allowed people to recognize Him.  Also note that the kingdom of God among them was not what the people of the time expected and therefore didn't see it.  Perhaps you are expecting something visually?

[Hennessey]

I ask, "today, would you want your children to come under the typical fivefold ministry?"


My neighbor, invited me over for coffee yesterday. As we visited in the wonderful presence of God this young woman mentioned that another mother had invited their family to their ten year old son's baptism ceremony at the "First Baptist Church." Both families have sons the same age and these sons are best friends. Christie also mentioned that earlier in the day they had been to the Catholic church for a bazaar and her nine year old son said he thought the sanctuary quite beautiful and hinted that he would like to be able to pray there some day.

After coffee we prayed for Christie's children that they would learn God dwells within and He is with them always. We asked the Father that He might begin speaking to and nourishing a relationship with these precious little ones.

The Harlot tries to get her talons into our children early.


"So let us not talk falsely now/The hour is getting late."

                 from "All Along the Watchtower"

[Loveroftruth]

Quote

Where 2 or 3 are gathered is where we see Christ in the mirror...it can't be a one-man show.  It's in the design...we are not all an eye.   Heart

We cant deny that we are on an individual walk and when we are connected to Him we are then connected to others. I believe Organized Religion has taught us that its all about the corporate - well the corporate cant happen if each person individually isnt walking in obedience with God  :2c:

It is what we nurture with HIM individually that then spills out to others.. But we have had it backwards for so long - we have told others that its all about corporate and so you have a bunch of people in a HORIZONTAL relationship instead of a vertical that leads to horizonal  :girlheart:

[Hennessey]

It is what we nurture with HIM individually that then spills out to others.. But we have had it backwards for so long - we have told others that its all about corporate and so you have a bunch of people in a HORIZONTAL relationship instead of a vertical that leads to horizonal

That's how I see it LT ............ "horizontal just happens"

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

The church was in its infancy at the time of this writing; it was a child. The child never grew up and became delinquent. However, there has always been a hidden remnant of mature sons through out each century

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: AMEN Christine! Preach it, girl!  :thumbsup:

[Chris]

1Co 13:8  Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Co 13:9  For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1Co 13:10  but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
1Co 13:12  For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
1Co 13:13  But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Do we only know "in part"  as Paul said he does?  Seems so, does any one know of any other scripture on the topic?

Paul

What does "now" and "then" mean, though?

1Co 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Seems to me that the "difference" it between being A CHILD and being A SON.

Between being "yet carnal" having "the earnest of the spirit" and having "gone on unto perfection" having received "the adoption of sons". (Christ IN YOU, the Hope of Glory = "when that which is perfect is come"??)

Paul did not say that he HAD NOT "attained unto the resurrection of the dead"; he said he COUNTED IT NOT and told us to "be thus minded" and "walk by the same rule", right?

Why?

Job 9:20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.


I think the problem lies in what we think being "perfect" means.

As I see it, we are "perfected" IN LOVE.

It is by our fruits that we shall be known (and those who are His are made manifest).

1Jo 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Just my  :2c:

[Kratos]

I agree that it is an individual thing that we come to the place that we no longer need these men in our lives (at least to a lesser extent). I know men like Eby still speak to me so I am not there. However, I think that this verse speaks to where many have come:

Amo 6:1  Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!
Amo 6:2  Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border?
Amo 6:3  Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Amo 6:4  That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;
Amo 6:5  That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
Amo 6:6  That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.

Please do not dismiss this out of hand as I know that this is the Lord at least for me. When Israel came to the promised land (Tabernacles), I believe that 2 1/2 tribes received their inheritance on the side of Jordan without enemies to defeat. But, they were told that they could not rest in their possession until all of their brethren were at rest, also. Many who are walking in the deeper truths of Sonship, seem to live their lives "individually" like those that Amos spoke of and have ceased to be grieved for their brethren that are still in bondage to the Harlot.

Many enjoy their rest on couches of ivory and spend their days passing the anointing back and forth among themselves. They invent poems and songs and share revelations as those who have already matured to the point that they no longer need ministers in their lives. But, they do not share the heart of God because they are not grieved enough for those still in Babylonian bondage enough to go fight for them until they come into Tabernacles, also.

It is easy to sit back fat and sassy pointing the finger at the old order 5-fold ministries and those who are under their spell. But, we will not step up and fulfill these roles as full grown Sons who will do so without fleecing the sheep or misreprestenting the Lord. Not everyone will find us on the internet folks.

God has struck the unrighteous shepherds to some extent, but there is much more to come. But, when the sheep are scattered into the hills, He still looks at them and weeps as sheep having no shepherd. The next step is for Him to gather them together again in flocks under shepherds after His own heart so that He can feed them and recover them. But, He will do this as the Son in the Sons and not independent of us.

Jesus is again telling me "If you love me, feed my sheep". I cannot sit back and enjoy my liberty while the rest of the creation suffers in futility. But, each must decide for themselves where they stand. I am not calling for the 5-fold as it has traditionally been done in the soul. But, for a 5-fold ministering out of the Most Holy Place without the flesh mixed in. The manifestation of the Sons of God is not all about the Sons. It is about a groaning creation waiting for these Sons to come back for them. I am so glad that men like Eby did not cease to be used as ministry gifts before I came along.

John

[Chris]

Good post Taffy  :thumbsup: (didn't quote it since it was so long)  :happygrin:

That is how I am seeing "come out OF HER my people" these days.

It's all about being BORN AGAIN, about being "delivered of the child" and Christ said that we would be "as A WOMAN whose hour has come to be delivered of the CHILD".

We have to come out of THE WOMAN (THE FLESH) so that we can be born OF THE SPIRIT.

We are "saved IN CHILDBEARING".  :cheerleader:

[Chris]

John,

How do we "take it to them" though? Can we do so by going to church? Will they listen or even give us the opportunity to speak or share these things? In my experience, they do not. They will cut you off quicker that you can say "Hello".

Just wondering what you suggest?

[Loveroftruth]

Chris Wrote

What does "now" and "then" mean, though?

1Co 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Chris,  I didnt totally understand what you were saying here but I sense it is really good  :thumbsup: Any way to break it down a little more for us who have to get is simple  :laughing7: :girlheart:

[Sarah]

We cant deny that we are on an individual walk and when we are connected to Him we are then connected to others. I believe Organized Religion has taught us that its all about the corporate - well the corporate cant happen if each person individually isnt walking in obedience with God  

It is what we nurture with HIM individually that then spills out to others.. But we have had it backwards for so long - we have told others that its all about corporate and so you have a bunch of people in a HORIZONTAL relationship instead of a vertical that leads to horizonal  

It is funny how we see 2 different things concerning what organized religion has taught us.  I could be wrong but this is how I felt the mainstream taught....

seek, and pray, and built yourself up, and then when we come together it will awesome.  I am now witnessing a second church split from the tiny church I went to over 2 years ago.  I have sat under ministers frustrated and lashing out at the people because change isn't seen....the congregation must not be praying enough, fasting enough.  I actually felt sorry for the minister because he was at the church every day, and night, fasting, tongue speaking, and yet frustration. We would have cycles of good times, but during the lows...others were looked on as not doing their part.

what if the building up and growth of the man isn't in individual efforts, but in the love we have for one another.  The point of the love chapter isn't the body for the gifts...but the gifts for the body for love..for love..for love.  It is every joint that supplies.

It is a little ironic that I speak this way since I don't attend church...but then again that isn't the picture of the body growing up IMO

[Loveroftruth]

Sarah,
That is so interesting - you must have been at a unique church... I always heard the opposite or their actions did not match their words.

Someone once told me that I should be in church because God uses people rubbing on us to teach us to love  :laughing7: :laughing7: My answer was that I get plenty opportunities and challenges in the world to work that love in  :laughing7: :laughing7: :HeartThrob:

Glad to hear what you experienced :girlheart:

[Sarah]

Someone once told me that I should be in church because God uses people rubbing on us to teach us to love    My answer was that I get plenty opportunities and challenges in the world to work that love in   

:grin:  I hear you there.

Yes, we all do come from unique experiences don't we?   :HeartThrob:

I would love to fellowship with people face to face, and sometimes ache for it;  but the thought of sitting in a pew listening to stuff that makes my stomach knot up is not appealing.

Iv'e spent years doing the individual thing, and it was wonderful...but it is different now and I can't shake it.  It is as if He won't allow me to see Him as an island anymore, but to seek Him in others.  I don't know...it's humbling for sure...especially when the majority of my contact with others is via internet.

Some people regard the mirror as the new covenant, or the law of grace, but I see it as the face of someone I can see Christ in.  When the Christ in me sees the Christ in you, He's looking in a mirror.  Iv'e had glimpses of this, and it is beautiful. 

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Sarah, I witness that....... :thumbsup:

[Molly]

Good post Taffy  :thumbsup: (didn't quote it since it was so long)  :happygrin:

That is how I am seeing "come out OF HER my people" these days.

It's all about being BORN AGAIN, about being "delivered of the child" and Christ said that we would be "as A WOMAN whose hour has come to be delivered of the CHILD".

We have to come out of THE WOMAN (THE FLESH) so that we can be born OF THE SPIRIT.

We are "saved IN CHILDBEARING".  :cheerleader:

That is so cool.  And, what is a child if not someone who is seeing the world for the first time?




Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[fire walker]

I've thought about this too, Christine.  Not a mass happening but one by one...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christine and Hopeful,
That has appeared to me as well, some time ago while praying and also in a dream
I had about every man in his own order, like standing in line at a market check out line, everytime I tried to move ahead the line just went slower and everytime I shied away and moved to the back the line just went faster so I saw this: that we can niether speed the process up or slow it down because it is in Gods good time and not ours
as to when and how far things go out and come back in like the ocean tides.

One by one has been how it has appeared to me for many years regardless of what the churches are saying about all this corporate hoopala, there have always been those who have went before us and those who come after us in an order, we can't change that, corporate or otherwise.
Besides how big is corporate when devided up into hundreds of denominations all with their own rules and doctrines, is 100, a thousand, two and a half million, how big is corporate?  Besides that  I can't see where it is physicaly possible to build a corporate church in this world large enough to hold all of the all in all's that shall be in God when God shall be all in all. We are told that where as little as even two or three gather there our Lord is also, I trust what the word has said above the doctrines of men.

Peace,
Fire Walker