Jesus' family

[WhiteWings]

Jesus' comes from the lineage of king David.

Luke list goes via David's son Nathan.

But according to
2 Samuel 7:12-13
1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:10, 28:4-7
the line must go via Solomon.
That's makes this genealogy 'useless'

Matthew's genealogy goes via Solomon; but also via the cursed king Jeconiah. So that invalidates this line too....
^YLTJeremiah 22
30 Thus said Jehovah: Write ye this man childless, A man--he doth not prosper in his days, For none of his seed doth prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling again in Judah!


So what's going on?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ah, another mystery to uncover..... :winkgrin:

[Pierac]

Jer 22:30 -
Write ye this man childless - Though he had seven sons, 1Ch 3:17, yet having no successor, he is to be entered on the genealogical tables as one without children for none of his posterity ever sat on the throne of David.
------------Adam Clark

Jer 22:30 -

tn Heb  "Write this man childless." For the explanation see the study note below. The word translated "childless" has spawned some debate because Jeconiah was in fact not childless. There is record from both the Bible and ancient Near Eastern texts that he had children (see, e.g., 1Ch_3:17). G. R. Driver, "Linguistic and Textual Problems: Jeremiah," JQR 28 (1937-38): 115, has suggested that the word both here  and in Lev_20:20-21 should be translated "stripped of honor." While that would relieve some of the difficulties here, the word definitely means "childless"  in Gen_15:2 and  also in Sir_16:3 where it is contrasted with having godless children. The issue is not one of childlessness but of having "one of his sons" succeed to the Davidic throne. The term for "one of his sons" is literally "from his seed a man" and the word "seed" is the same one that is used to refer to his "children" who were forced into exile with him (Jer_22:28).

sn The figure here is of registering a person on an official roll of citizens, etc. (cf. Num_11:26; 1Ch_4:41; Psa_87:6). Here it probably refers to the "king list" of dynastic succession. While Jeconiah did have children (2Ch_3:17) none of them ever returned to Judah or ruled over it. What is being denied here is his own succession and that of his immediate sons contrary to the popular hopes  expressed in Jer_28:4. His grandson Zerubbabel did return to Judah, became governor (Hag_1:1; Hag_2:2), and along with the high priest Joshua was responsible for rebuilding the second temple (e.g., Ezr_5:2).

---------Net Bible commentary



Paul

[micah7:9]

Jesus' comes from the lineage of king David.

Luke list goes via David's son Nathan.

But according to
2 Samuel 7:12-13
1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:10, 28:4-7
the line must go via Solomon.
That's makes this genealogy 'useless'

Matthew's genealogy goes via Solomon; but also via the cursed king Jeconiah. So that invalidates this line too....
^YLTJeremiah 22
30 Thus said Jehovah: Write ye this man childless, A man--he doth not prosper in his days, For none of his seed doth prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling again in Judah!


So what's going on?

Im siding with you on this one WW mainly because of "Net Bible commentary" I dont find much stock in much of anything that a seminary theologian puts forth on paper. I know that there must be a lineage  from man/adam to Jesus the Christ, Jesus as Adam, was/is the son of God. With that I will add as I have afore, blood comes from the Father. Forensic science will  not help in a believers search of the Word. God IS Spirit, when we all understand this most important "pondering" then He will lead us upward.

[Pierac]

Jesus' comes from the lineage of king David.

Luke list goes via David's son Nathan.

But according to
2 Samuel 7:12-13
1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:10, 28:4-7
the line must go via Solomon.
That's makes this genealogy 'useless'

Matthew's genealogy goes via Solomon; but also via the cursed king Jeconiah. So that invalidates this line too....
^YLTJeremiah 22
30 Thus said Jehovah: Write ye this man childless, A man--he doth not prosper in his days, For none of his seed doth prosper, Sitting on the throne of David, And ruling again in Judah!


So what's going on?

Im siding with you on this one WW mainly because of "Net Bible commentary" I dont find much stock in much of anything that a seminary theologian puts forth on paper. I know that there must be a lineage  from man/adam to Jesus the Christ, Jesus as Adam, was/is the son of God. With that I will add as I have afore, blood comes from the Father. Forensic science will  not help in a believers search of the Word. God IS Spirit, when we all understand this most important "pondering" then He will lead us upward.

I'm confused, as the Net Bible Commentary does not disagree with your statement?  It's pretty much the same as Adam Clarks... the word Childless does not always mean with out child!


Paul

[WhiteWings]

Jeconiah does have (many) decendants. I that's a fact as far as I'm concerned because the curse is that none of Jeconiah's decendants sit on the throne.
So the royal line gets broken when the curse is spoken.


In Matthew who traces from Jesus to David we see that, Salathiel is the son of Jecohnias
That means Salathiel is a cursed son. So Matthew presents a line that died off long ago.
?

[micah7:9]

Why is this important?

[WhiteWings]

Is there any proof that a royal line can pass through adaption?

authoritative.
Here is another example which is easier to verify:
Saul had two daughters, the older one was Merab and the younger was Michal. (1 Sam.
14:49). Merab was promised to David as a wife, but she was given to Adriel the Meholathite
instead. (1 Sam. 18:17-19). David married Michal, the younger daughter of Saul (1 Sam.
18:20-30). Michal was given to another man called Phalti after David had fled from Saul (1
Sam. 25:44) but David took her back again when he returned to take the kingdom. (2 Sam.
3:13-16)
When David brought the Ark to Jerusalem and danced before the Lord, Michal mocked him,
saying he had exposed himself to the women. She died childless, apparently as a judgement
for her mockery.
Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. (2 Sam 6:23)
In apparent contradiction to this, the following passage suggests that Michal had five sons
from Adriel, who as we have already seen, was the husband of Merab.
And the king ... took the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she bore to Adriel the
son of Barzillai the Meholathite. (2 Sam. 21:8. Green's Literal Translation)

The Talmud resolves this as follows:
Now as to R. Joshua b. Korha, surely it is written, And the five sons of Michal the daughter of
Saul whom she bore to Adriel. - R. Joshua [b. Korha] answers thee: Was it then Michal who
bore them? Surely it was rather Merab who bore them! But Merab bore and Michal brought
them up; therefore they were called by her name. This teaches thee that whoever brings up an
orphan in his home, Scripture ascribes it to him as though he had begotten him. (Talmud
Mas. Sanhedrin 19b)

(http://www.annomundi.com/bible/virgin_birth_2.gif)

So adoptive children are seen as own flesh and blood.
Say a king has several sons and the oldest Son-A is 22 years old.
Son-A will be the inherit his throne.
The king adopts a 25 year old man as his son.
Will the adopted son take Son-A place because he's the first born son if we count him as if born from that father?

[WhiteWings]

Genealogy of Jesus

First attempt at a rather complex project. So report all errors!

- ....4  = 4th born person from a parent
- (2)... = The chart is quite complex and split in a few part. All names prefixed with (2) are the same person.
- Exactly the same names without a prefix are never the same person. Unless I made a mistake.
- Some persons have a name with (much) different spelling. Hebrew, Babylonian, Greek, etc
- Man ==== Wife    ---> ==== means married to

If a man dies his children must (law)be adopted by his father or oldest brother of the bride. This is of extreme importance to make Luke's and Matthew's genealogies fit.
It also makes the genealogy hopelessly complex. In one verse you seen someone is the of Man-A and a few verses later he's the son of Man-B
Adopted children are the same as one's own children and the Bible genealogy doesn't even bother to mention this....



First the rough outline.
David had many wives and many sons
The genealogy of Jesus traces back to David's sons Nathan and Solomon.
Quick overview here  at the bottom of the page. It may be good to read their objections to Christianity. It's show the complexity of the genealogy. And I'll show they are wrong :winkgrin:

I have no idea why the 2 youngest sons of David are the main figures instead of the 2 oldest sons.
Neither do I know why Solomon's line is called the Royal line and Nathan's line the Legal line.  Anyone????
Both lines end at Jesus. Jesus is the Royal King and the Legal King and more as we will see.



Genealogy by Matthew
The first problem is Jeremiah 22:30. God curses king Jehoiachin-Jeconiah-Jechonias-Coniah. His seed shall never sit on the throne. --> the red box
That simply means none of his descendants can ever be king.
The last in line is Joseph-Clophas the tecton -> usually called Joseph the carpenter.
Jesus was his son so can't inherit the Royal line from his father because the line is cursed....
Now the tricky adoption part comes.
Mary got pregnant from the HS before she was married. Unborn Jesus had no blood from His fathers side.
Perhaps not even when He was born.
Joseph-tecton adopted Jesus. Thereby Jesus was 100% son of an earthly father. At adoption he inherited the bloodline of His father.
BUT he was not the seed of His father. That way the curse got bypassed.
If not.... not worries there are always second chances  :icon_king:

Genealogy by Luke.
First problem. The lines of Luke and Matthew don't look the same.. The reason is that they are of different families!
In both genealogies Jesus has a father named Joseph. But from the grandfathers onward the bloodlines are vastly different.
How can that be.....?
Stay tuned  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Continued....

Matthew's genelogy goes via Joseph-tecton.
Luke's genealogy goes via Jospeh of Arimthea.

When Jesus' father Joseph-tecton died (near His 30's) Jewish law stepped in.
Mary-Miriam's brother Joseph or Arimathea adopted Jesus.
Jesus went from a very poor family to an extremely rich family. It's said the riched in whole (Jewish) history.
Joseph of Arimathea had a honerary seat in the Sanhedrin. The king's seat. (that fact alone gives Jesus a direct line with Nathan.
But if you compare Luke's genealogy with this family line you will see it fits pefectly.

At adoption Jesus got a new (legal) mother. Mary Magdalena of Bethany who was married with  Joseph of Arimathea.
Mary Magdalena of Bethany was of another extremely wealth family.
She was of the tribe of Benjamin. And surely that tribe is special.... Inheritance always passed through the male bloodline. Except in teh tribe of Benjamin it passes through the female line. Magdalena means main pillar of the house. He was the most important woman of Benjamin's tribe.
Jesus' new grandfather Simon the leper Nicodemus also had a honeray seat in the Sandrehin. (for Benjamin)
As said the heir passes through the female line in Benjamin but it's always teh men that sit on the throne.
The Magdalena of the is the one that officially appoints priests and kings.
When she annoited Jesus He not only became heir of Benjamin. The heir of Benjamin can  appoint scribes.
The scribes Jesus appointed wrote the NT.


We saw Solom's line died due to a curse.
Mary Magdalena of Bethany was caught in the act of adultary after she adopted Jesus. That's why Jesus could forgive her. Not because He was the son of God but because only the eldest son, husband and father could forgive adultary. But even if the adultary was forgiven all her ofspring are bastards. So this line also died.
So all the needed bloodlines ended nearly 2000 years ago.





At birth Jesus became Royal heir to the throne of David in the Solomon line.
At adoption (near 30) He became the Legal heir in the Nathan.
At the same time He became heir of Benjamin

[WhiteWings]

Chronicles 3:22 And sons of Shechaniah: Shemaiah; and sons of Shemaiah: Hattush, and Igeal, and Bariah, and Neariah, and Shaphat, six.

The above is one of many adoption verses.

Shechaniah had 1 natural born son (Shemaiah)
Shemaiah had 5 natural born sons Hattush, Igeal, Bariah, Neariah, and Shaphat.
Shemaiah died and Shechaniah adopted his 5 grandchildren.

BTW I checked this with a rabbi.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I can see it!  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: I can see it!  :thumbsup:

Whatca c ?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: If I'm understanding this right, I can see how the geneology questions are resolved with the understanding about the adoption laws. Which to me just presents another pattern, because it talks about US being adopted, too.

[WhiteWings]

I found something 'funny'
Jesus genealogy is like the number 8 (on a string)
It starts with David and splits into Solomon and Nathan
It ends with Joseph, Mary and Jesus
In the center of the 8 we find Zorobabel

God
Adam
|
|
|
David
Solomon   Nathan
8
Joseph   Mary
Jesus

Solomon build the 1st Temple.
Zorababel build the 2nd Temple.
Jesus build the 3rd Temple.

Why an 8?

That's a bit complex. I'll give a summary and just ask if you want to know more.
One of the kings in Solomons line burned a temple scroll. God cursed his seed. But 2 generations later the line was restored again.
Some Jewish style adoptions took place and the cursed Solomon line merged with the blessed line of Nathan.
The result was Zorababel who was not seed of the cursed line was son of both the Nathan and Solom line. A fresh start....
You see Zorababel in Luke's and Matthews genealogy.

Some Jewish anti-Jesus groups are having lots of fun with the cursed line because Jesus can't be king of a dead line.
Above I presented a solution that is based on the assumption that teh matching names are really the same persons.
Solomons line is extremely well documented in the OT. Nathans line isn't documented at all.
Mattew gives a summary of Nathan's line with lots of people left out. So in theory those matching names could be a century apart. Or just 2 people with the same name at the same time. Matthew got his info from Temple scrolls that are destroyed in the 1st century.
But even orthodox rabbi's disagree with the anti-Jesus groups because the OT (according to them) very clearly states the curse was lifted by God.
The reason is a bit guesswork. I guess what I wrote above.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Interesting......I know something about the 8......it's the symbol for eternity (no beginning, no end), and it also represents two people holding hands with them crossed at the wrists, as a reversal, and connects with the fretwork on the pillars of the temple and the fretwork on the mercy seat. My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

An 8 on it's side is the symbol for infinite in math.

His genalogy traces back to Adam. That makes Him Son of man. Son=offspring.
If Jesus marries the church it becomes part of His genealogy.
But what exactly is His genalogy. Is He Son of Man or Son of God?
The virgin birth makes Him son of God.
But then I wonder how He can be son of men. His bloodline traces back to the man Adam. From that perspective He was the Son of Man.
But in a way He isn't.... (imo)
Adam was was formed by God. But the breath made Adam alive. (no breath, spirit discussion please!)
My point is that both Adam and Jesus recieved a divine life-spark.
So why is Jesus son of God and Adam not?
If Adam is the son of God then Jesus also is the Son of God via his ancestor Adam.
Jesus wasn't Joseph own child. He adopted Jesus. That merged 2 bloodlines. That of His earthly and heavenly father. (later He got adopted a 2nd time)


What exactly is "church"?
I know it's not a building. That's all clear to me.
If Jesus marries Church then exactly what does He do?

a] Marry a woman called church. --> The woman is made of millions of believers.
b] Marry a woman called church that has millions of children (believers)  ---> In this case all children automatically get adopted.

In case of b] we will call God Grandfather. We will be of a divine bloodline. ---> Of that I'm sure with my current understanding of (ancient) Jewish adoption laws.

In case of a] I don't really know.
In western society church would be called daugher-in-law.
But under Jewish law:
- Adoption laws adopted childeren 'as if of your own' full rights. (but not of 'the seed' iirc)
- There are no half-brother and half-sisters.

The thing is that Jewishness passes on via the woman. The bloodline via the man. (Benjamin is an exception)
So for the children to be born into the bloodline of the father it's not needed that the mother is part of that bloodline.
But maybe she is. That I don't know.


So final question is?
Are the believers:
a] The church?
b] Children of the church?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:......There are only 2 (many membered bodies) men on the face of the earth. One is Adam, who also has a female side to him (soul) and one is Yeshua, who also had a female side to Him (understanding) and now has an adopted female (His betrothed = the souls of all mankind) to "wed". Which is one reason, why Song of Solomon says in one place, "my SISTER, my SPOUSE". I know you know the Jewish laws regarding a widow. 

One was natural, the other spiritual. When the natural submits and recognizes the authority of the other and is baptized in the fire of the HG, they are called believers, but what is happening is that a "piece" of Adam is being put on the altar just like the pieces of the bullock were put on the altar on the day of atonement, separated in distance between the pieces, yet joined by the fire that was commanded to be allowed to go up between them, = love is the joint that supplieth. Our God is a consuming fire, His Spirit is love.

The HEAD of the bullock was removed first (He was taken from us), cut up in the joints (not a bone of His was broken) stripped of its skin (fleshly covering) and then put on the altar first. Next came the pieces of the BODY, with a space to be allowed for the flames to come up around.

[WhiteWings]

So the answer is b]?

Jesus married church=the body cut into pieces=childeren?

Song of Solomon says in one place, "my SISTER, my SPOUSE".

That means the natural brother of Solomon died. Who does that dead brother represent?

[Molly]

So the answer is b]?

Jesus married church=the body cut into pieces=childeren?

Song of Solomon says in one place, "my SISTER, my SPOUSE".

That mean the natural brother of Solomon died. Who does that dead brother represent?

Adam?

Jesus is the kinsman redeemer.  Like Boaz for Ruth.

[micah7:9]

I know this is not in the thread but I figgered I may get a twitch. Church=? I understand that this is the "called out." That is all who hear and receive and come out of the system.
Bride=? Now I will stumble here. Now Im told thats the church, I can see that.
Overcomer= again, I have thoughts, but I stumble. The overcomer is male, so the overcomer is not the bride or the church.
I guess Ill leave it there and see what bobs to the top. Thanks

[WhiteWings]

So the answer is b]?

Jesus married church=the body cut into pieces=childeren?

Song of Solomon says in one place, "my SISTER, my SPOUSE".

That mean the natural brother of Solomon died. Who does that dead brother represent?

Adam?

Jesus is the kinsman redeemer.  Like Boaz for Ruth.

But that would mean Adam stays dead and isn't part of salvation?
When a man's brother dies he will marry his brothers wife and his dead brother's kids will be his.
That fixes things for the wife and the kids. But how does the dead husband (Molly says Adam) profit?
That husband is and stays very much dead.

[WhiteWings]

Just brainstorming a bit....
Imo post #14 (about the 8) has Scriptual backup. But what about the following idea.....?
You see the pattern?
After Jesus things got a mess again. Various churches and denomonations etc.
Unity under David --> Deviation --> Unity under Zorababel --> Deviation --> Unity under Jesus --> Deviation --> unity under????

God
Adam
|
|
|
David
Solomon   Nathan
8
Joseph   Mary
Jesus
Apostles
8
God all in all???

Unity under David --> Deviation --> Unity under Zorababel --> Deviation --> Unity under Jesus --> Deviation --> unity under Jesus --> Deviation  --> God all in all

God
Adam
|
|
|
David
Solomon   Nathan
8
Joseph   Mary
Jesus
Apostles
0
God all in all???

Unity under David --> Deviation --> Unity under Zorababel --> Deviation --> Unity under Jesus --> Deviation --> unity under Jesus ==> the end



Do you think a second full 8 will be completed or just the first part of that 8

Note:
During Zorababel Nathan's bloodline survived and Solomon's bloodline that got cursed through 2 evil kings was ended.
At Jesus birth the bloodline of His earhly father Joseph ended.
But His mother was from teh other bloodline that started at Zorababal
Just like the time at Zorababel some adptions took place (that's why the 8 is formed).
Jesus got adopted into the king/priest bloodline of Joseph of Arimathia. (the good bloodline of Zorababel)

From David 2 bloodlines emerged.
Solomon -> wordly bloodline
Nathan -> Prophet -> spiritual bloodline.

The earthy bloodline was terminated at Zorababel. So the spiritual bloodline remains.
The spiritual bloodline again splits.
The earthly part terminates in Joseph His father.
The spiritual bloodline goes to Joseph of Armiathea (high priest)
Then is splits up again and the bad line will be terminated again(is my guess)
:dontknow:


Note to Card. The two 8 form a double helix. That's DNA another symbol of life....
(http://nnlm.gov/sea/images/helix.gif)

[Molly]

heh heh

Connect the ends and make a circle, save Adam, natural and spiritual united in one.

15-17 And live! Oh, let him live!
      Deck him out in Sheba gold.
   Offer prayers unceasing to him,
      bless him from morning to night.
   Fields of golden grain in the land,
      cresting the mountains in wild exuberance,
   Cornucopias of praise, praises
      springing from the city like grass from the earth.
   May he never be forgotten,
      his fame shine on like sunshine.
   May all godless people enter his circle of blessing
      and bless the One who blessed them.

--Psa 72

[micah7:9]

heh heh

Connect the ends and make a circle, save Adam, natural and spiritual united in one.

15-17 And live! Oh, let him live!
      Deck him out in Sheba gold.
   Offer prayers unceasing to him,
      bless him from morning to night.
   Fields of golden grain in the land,
      cresting the mountains in wild exuberance,
   Cornucopias of praise, praises
      springing from the city like grass from the earth.
   May he never be forgotten,
      his fame shine on like sunshine.
   May all godless people enter his circle of blessing
      and bless the One who blessed them.

--Psa 72

:grin: :bigGrin: :happy3: :thumbsup:  I like that Molly! Thank you and thank the Lord!