Willing vs Wanting

[shawn]

Going through some verses such as II Peter 3:9
KJV 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Then NIV

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

And

KJV 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

NIV 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Which is it?  I don't know what online sources you use for the Greek but would love to know.  It might be semantic because I would believe that God's desire is his will, but I believe the language is more powerful with willing vs wanting.

[micah7:9]

This is how I have been led to stand on that. Should God " will, wish, want, hope, or desire" then in His time it is to be.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :HeartThrob:

[shawn]

This is how I have been led to stand on that. Should God " will, wish, want, hope, or desire" then in His time it is to be.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :HeartThrob:

Amen, I like that response.

[gregoryfl]

Hey Shawn,

You are right. There is a distinction in Greek between two words which often get mixed up. In the scripture you quoted, it is his boulema [intention] for all to be saved. Intention in God's guarantee that something will happen. This is different from his thelo, which is his expressed will, which often does get resisted and broken.

I wrote a blog about this, concerning Pharaoh, which you can read here:  http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2011/03/will-vs-intention.html

Hope that helps,

Ron

[shawn]

Hey Shawn,

You are right. There is a distinction in Greek between two words which often get mixed up. In the scripture you quoted, it is his boulema [intention] for all to be saved. Intention in God's guarantee that something will happen. This is different from his thelo, which is his expressed will, which often does get resisted and broken.

I wrote a blog about this, concerning Pharaoh, which you can read here:  http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2011/03/will-vs-intention.html

Hope that helps,

Ron

Terrific Greg...this is the kind of stuff I am looking for.  Thanks.

[micah7:9]

Hey Shawn,

You are right. There is a distinction in Greek between two words which often get mixed up. In the scripture you quoted, it is his boulema [intention] for all to be saved. Intention in God's guarantee that something will happen. This is different from his thelo, which is his expressed will, which often does get resisted and broken.

I wrote a blog about this, concerning Pharaoh, which you can read here:  http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2011/03/will-vs-intention.html

Hope that helps,

Ron

I like what you said and it is reasonable, but I am not going to respond for I believe it touchs on a subject not permited. But then again its just me.

[WhiteWings]

βούλομαι
boulomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded
2) of willing as an affection, to desire
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: middle voice of a primary verb
Citing in TDNT: 1:629, 108

Matt 1:19 Then Joseph her husband , being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example , was minded to put her away privily .
Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father : and no man knoweth the Son , but the Father ; neither knoweth any man the Father , save the Son , and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mark 15:15 And so Pilate , willing to content the people , released Barabbas unto them , and delivered Jesus , when he had scourged him, to be crucified .
Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father : and no man knoweth who the Son is , but the Father ; and who the Father is , but the Son , and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Luke 22:42 Saying , Father , if thou be willing , remove this cup from me : nevertheless not my will , but thine , be done .
John 18:39 But ye have a custom , that I should release unto you one at the passover : will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews ?
Acts 5:28 Saying , Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name ? and , behold , ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine , and intend to bring this man's blood upon us .
Acts 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison , and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him ; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people .
Acts 17:20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears : we would know therefore what these things mean .
Acts 18:15 But if it be a question of words and names , and of your law , look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters.
Acts 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia , the brethren wrote , exhorting the disciples to receive him : who , when he was come , helped them much which had believed through grace :
Acts 19:30 And when Paul would have entered in unto the people , the disciples suffered him not .
Acts 22:30 On the morrow , because he would have known the certainty wherefore he was accused of the Jews , he loosed him from his bands , and commanded the chief priests and all their council to appear , and brought Paul down , and set him before them .
Acts 23:28 And when I would have known the cause wherefore they accused him , I brought him forth into their council :
Acts 25:20 And because I doubted of such manner of questions , I asked him whether he would go to Jerusalem , and there be judged of these matters .
Acts 25:22 Then Agrippa said unto Festus , I would also hear the man myself . To morrow , said he, thou shalt hear him .
Acts 27:43 But the centurion , willing to save Paul , kept them from their purpose ; and commanded that they which could swim should cast themselves first into the sea, and get to land :
Acts 28:18 Who , when they had examined me , would have let me go , because there was no cause of death in me .
1Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit , dividing to every man severally as he will .
2Cor 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before , that ye might have a second benefit ;
Phil 1:12 But I would ye should understand , brethren , that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel ;
1Tim 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where , lifting up holy hands , without wrath and doubting .
1Tim 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry , bear children , guide the house , give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully .
1Tim 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare , and into many foolish and hurtful lusts , which drown men in destruction and perdition .
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying , and these things I will that thou affirm constantly , that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works . These things are good and profitable unto men .
Phlm 1:13 Whom I would have retained with me , that in thy stead he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel :
Heb 6:17 Wherein God , willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel , confirmed it by an oath :
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth , that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures .
Jas 3:4 Behold also the ships , which though they be so great , and are driven of fierce winds , yet are they turned about with a very small helm , whithersoever the governor listeth .
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses , know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God ? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God .
2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise , as some men count slackness ; but is longsuffering to us-ward , not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance .
2John 1:12 Having many things to write unto you , I would not write with paper and ink : but I trust to come unto you , and speak face to face , that our joy may be full .
3John 1:10 Wherefore , if I come , I will remember his deeds which he doeth , prating against us with malicious words : and not content therewith , neither doth he himself receive the brethren , and forbiddeth them that would , and casteth them out of the church .
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance , though ye once knew this , how that the Lord , having saved the people out of the land of Egypt , afterward destroyed them that believed not .

[WhiteWings]

Hey Shawn,

You are right. There is a distinction in Greek between two words which often get mixed up. In the scripture you quoted, it is his boulema [intention] for all to be saved. Intention in God's guarantee that something will happen. This is different from his thelo, which is his expressed will, which often does get resisted and broken.

I wrote a blog about this, concerning Pharaoh, which you can read here:  http://ronsrestingplace.blogspot.com/2011/03/will-vs-intention.html

Hope that helps,

Ron

Hi Ron,
I'm not sure I agree with the conclusion on your website.

This is but one of many, many examples of the difference between his will, which can and often does get resisted, and his intention, which never does.

^YLT2Pet 3
9 the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

I think the difference between 'will' and 'intention' is at best the amount of 'slowness'....
And even about that I have my doubts. For us there may seem to be a difference but is there on the level of God?
If human actions can delay God's schedule one second doesn't that make Him not all powerful?
It often looks like God doesn't use all His foreknowledge but that doesn't mean He doesn't have it. For example why He even created Adam in Eden when He knew Adam would be expelled. And in the mean while He was good friends with Adam and Eve.

:2c:

[micah7:9]

 :2c: :thumbsup:

[gregoryfl]

Thank you Whitewings, for your response. I do realize that this subject is not permitted here, which is why I posted my blog as a link instead of pasting it here.

There is a reasonable answer to the great questions you bring up, for I wrestled with them as well. You can email me at ronandofl@yahoo.com if you would like to carry on a conversation about this further. My intention is not to argue, nor is it to try and convince you of what I believe, but just to present thoughts that I see that clear up questions such as what you asked.

I will at least say this if I can. If it is not permissible, I will remove it at the request of any moderators or anyone offended.

You as if human actions can delay God's schedule one second doesn't that make Him not all powerful? I will answer that using the children of Israel as an example. When they were about to enter the promised land and ended up wandering 40 years more in the desert for their disobedience and lack of faith, from our perspective they delayed and resisted what God willed [thelo].
From His perspective though, it happened just as he intended [boulema]. Such actions do not render God not all powerful, but rather, show just how all powerful he is, even over anything that appears from our perspective to go against him.

As to the examples you shared in your list of Scriptures, which I am glad you took the time to pull up, please look at those carefully and notice that in the examples of the word being used in connection with God, his boulema never gets resisted. As for humans, yes, their boulema can change, such as in the first example where you have Joseph intending [boulema] to put away Mary, but then changes that intention. Even then though, the reason for the difference of words between thelo and boulema is that boulema has as its intention, not merely the forming of a desire in the mind, but also the carrying out of that desire, so it goes a bit further than a mere thelo.

At the very least, even if there is still disagreement, you can see a bit more of where I am coming from.  :HeartThrob:

Shalom,

Ron

[WhiteWings]

You as if human actions can delay God's schedule one second doesn't that make Him not all powerful? I will answer that using the children of Israel as an example. When they were about to enter the promised land and ended up wandering 40 years more in the desert for their disobedience and lack of faith, from our perspective they delayed and resisted what God willed [thelo].

Did the people delayed God's schedule? Or do we just think they did?
For me it contradicts 2 main properties (dunno the correct english word) of God:
- All powerfull: The people could resist Him.
- Foreknowledge: Even before creation He should have known they would not enter the promised land at that time.

Basicly I use those two things (knowledge and power) as anchor points for much of my reasoning.
Maybe I'm thinking to black/white and apply those 2 concepts to rigidly?

OTOH I'm not denying some things happen (almost) immediately while other things seem to get delayed a long time.
(I think they haven't entered the promised land yet.)

Maybe we are allowed to carefully chat about it....?  :winkgrin:

[gregoryfl]

Did the people truly delay God's schedule in the wilderness? Not at all. That is the reason I said 'from our perspective', and then added God's perspective in the next sentence. :)

Regarding the idea of resisting and God's being all powerful.

Here is some questions to consider.

What if this all powerful God intended for them to resist him, using that as part of his intention?
Can even the evil of disobedience and wickedness and stubbornness be part of God's intention from before Creation, to bring about the restoration of all things?
In other words, that possibly evil is not a maverick entity fighting against God, that he never intended but knew it would be, so just let it happen, but rather, a tool in his all powerful hand, used by him toward the grand purpose of all that is good and righteous.

It would be a delay from our perspective, but from his perspective it would be doing exactly what he intends, no delay at all from his perspective as if he is trying to do something but we keep getting in the way and so he has to react to it by trying something else (which I believe we both agree is not true). I do not see God as reacting, since he knows everything (foreknowledge), but purposing and sending his word to accomplish everything he sends it to do, right when he intends it.

The scripture used in the original post also demonstrates the 2 perspectives we find expressed throughout the holy writings, for Peter shares man's perspective, wherein there were those thinking that God was slow and delaying in bringing about his promise. Yet, from God's perspective, Peter said that God was not slow at all.

Ron

[micah7:9]

Now you saying something, "In other words, that possibly evil is not a maverick entity fighting against God, that he never intended but knew it would be, so just let it happen, but rather, a tool in his all powerful hand, used by him toward the grand purpose of all that is good and righteous."

I would leave out the "possibly."

[gregoryfl]

In my heart, I do leave out that word. Just using it here so as not to come across as dogmatic and unyielding in this discussion.  :cloud9:

[WhiteWings]

I thought I already replied to this post.... :sigh:

Did the people truly delay God's schedule in the wilderness? Not at all.

Agreed.

That is the reason I said 'from our perspective', and then added God's perspective in the next sentence. :)

That's my perspective too.

Regarding the idea of resisting and God's being all powerful.

Here is some questions to consider.

What if this all powerful God intended for them to resist him, using that as part of his intention?

Then they only have the illusion of resiting. They are used as a tool.

Can even the evil of disobedience and wickedness and stubbornness be part of God's intention from before Creation, to bring about the restoration of all things?

If not God is a lousy Potter.
Also note that there are many shapes between the lump of clay and the final procduct.

In other words, that possibly evil is not a maverick entity fighting against God, that he never intended but knew it would be, so just let it happen, but rather, a tool in his all powerful hand, used by him toward the grand purpose of all that is good and righteous.

Yup, it seems that way.

It would be a delay from our perspective, but from his perspective it would be doing exactly what he intends, no delay at all from his perspective as if he is trying to do something but we keep getting in the way and so he has to react to it by trying something else (which I believe we both agree is not true). I do not see God as reacting, since he knows everything (foreknowledge), but purposing and sending his word to accomplish everything he sends it to do, right when he intends it

Agreed.

The scripture used in the original post also demonstrates the 2 perspectives we find expressed throughout the holy writings, for Peter shares man's perspective, wherein there were those thinking that God was slow and delaying in bringing about his promise. Yet, from God's perspective, Peter said that God was not slow at all.

Can I summarize the above as?

For God there is no difference between desire, will, want, intend, etc.
But for most of humanity that doesn't understand the big picture if looks as if there is a difference.

[WhiteWings]

A balanced view for personal study (but no discussing...)
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/coldfusion/Article.cfm?PID=5

[gregoryfl]

A balanced view for personal study (but no discussing...)
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/coldfusion/Article.cfm?PID=5
[/quote

Very interesting Whitewings, because Stephen Jones wrote another Book called The Sovereignty of God and the Destiny of Man, which teaches the very thing I shared. It was from him and that book (pgs. 13 to 16 if you were to get a copy) that I have learned the distinction betweeen boulema and thelo, and the reasoning from it. I will agree not to discuss this further but just found it interesting that you brought him up, since he is the source of what I have shared as well. :)

Have you read and or listened to any of what is on that website yourself? Just curious bro.

Shalom

Ron

[WhiteWings]

I've read some stuff on that site but not all. The book you mentioned is part of "not all"  :laughing7:
I like Jones' stuff. The way I see it our views don't contradict. Besides of that I just post any relevant article I find. Even if it totally contradicts what I wrote 2 minites ago.
I have my thoughts. I'm stubborn. But I also know I have a lot to learn.

[jabcat]

This is how I have been led to stand on that. Should God " will, wish, want, hope, or desire" then in His time it is to be.
Peace and Love Through Jesus :HeartThrob:

Yep.   :thumbsup:

[shawn]

You as if human actions can delay God's schedule one second doesn't that make Him not all powerful? I will answer that using the children of Israel as an example. When they were about to enter the promised land and ended up wandering 40 years more in the desert for their disobedience and lack of faith, from our perspective they delayed and resisted what God willed [thelo].

Did the people delayed God's schedule? Or do we just think they did?
For me it contradicts 2 main properties (dunno the correct english word) of God:
- All powerfull: The people could resist Him.
- Foreknowledge: Even before creation He should have known they would not enter the promised land at that time.

Basicly I use those two things (knowledge and power) as anchor points for much of my reasoning.
Maybe I'm thinking to black/white and apply those 2 concepts to rigidly?

OTOH I'm not denying some things happen (almost) immediately while other things seem to get delayed a long time.
(I think they haven't entered the promised land yet.)

Maybe we are allowed to carefully chat about it....?  :winkgrin:

I do think we are very rigid in how we apply knowledge, power and Sovereignty.  We are indeed subject to very black and white thinking.  Such as if we can delay God's will one second then he isn't all powerful.  I'm not sure that is indeed true.  It's kind of like when people speak about God's ability to do anything, then someone asks if God is capable of sinning.  Then they conclude if he can't sin then he truly isn't all powerful.  It's humanistic natural thinking that gets us into trouble.  I have more to say on the subject but would risk touching on a banned subject.