Was the Church of Rome really the first Church?

[WhiteWings]

I think what he's saying here is that the early church believed in the divinity of Christ, that they were Binatarian, meaning Father and Son, rather than

:doh: Yeah. Even RCC was Binarian in the early years.

Trinitarian, although they of course acknowledged the Holy Spirit, but

That's not odd because in (very) literal translations HS called "It".
I wonder what the Biblical definition of ghost is. Not just the Holy Gost but any ghost.

apostles and they were the ones who stripped the remaining Jewishness from the church--although we see that Paul himself was starting to do this and Peter eventually went

The question is how far did Paul intent to go with that stripping? And did the church add things back. For me an altar in church is about the highest form of blasphemy/rejection of Jesus. Never thought about that?

This is why, he says, the early church kept the Sabbath on saturday, and the various feast days from the OT--as well as the

If I had to vote right now I would say Saturday. Jesus never said anything about changing that. Also consider the pagan roots of sunday. Two red flags for me.
Of course those who believe in a Sunday resurrection have a good reason to switch to Sunday. (but not good enough I think)

He also says the early church believed in universal salvation [of most people] and that the true church would be a little flock in this age with the majority of people being saved in the age to

How are you gonna be saved Molly?
As a sour grape or a raisin  :laughing7:

[Molly]

The question is how far did Paul intent to go with that stripping? And did the church add things back.

I think Paul's point was not to burden Gentiles with Judaism, that each person should follow the traditions of food, holy days that seems proper to himself.  Not to make these things a stumbling block. That's probably why they adapted the Greek and Roman holidays. The original fight was over circumcision and that's where Paul made his famous statement that it was circumcision of the heart that was important.

Although I must say at times I think about Saturday, but Sunday has been a holy day to me for all my life.

For me an altar in church is about the highest form of blasphemy/rejection of Jesus. Never thought about that?

No I never thought about that.  That's interesting.  Wasn't a problem for me; Puritans don't have altars.
But that's probably why they don't have altars.
Are you talking about the Catholic church?  What do they put on their altar?  The bread and wine?

How are you gonna be saved Molly?
As a sour grape or a raisin 

Actually the first fruits are the tastiest and most beautiful fruit of the bunch.  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

The question is how far did Paul intent to go with that stripping? And did the church add things back.

I think Paul's point was not to burden Gentiles with Judaism, that each person should follow the traditions of food, holy days that seems proper to himself.  Not to make these things a stumbling block. That's probably why they adapted the Greek and Roman holidays.

Maybe partly; but also for safety. Romans didn't really like Jews (after 70AD). Jews and Christians were te saem for Romans. So Christians decided do do things differently so teh Romans could see a difference. Plus anti semitism began to grow. Jews are Jesus killers and "we" don't want to look like them. That's the story I read.

The original fight was over circumcision and that's where Paul made his famous statement that it was circumcision of the heart that was important.

Romans were skilled in that  :happygrin:

Although I must say at times I think about Saturday, but Sunday has been a holy day to me for all my life.

Not for me as you know. If I ever make a choice I would say 75% sure it will be Saturday.

For me an altar in church is about the highest form of blasphemy/rejection of Jesus. Never thought about that?

No I never thought about that.  That's interesting.  Wasn't a problem for me; Puritans don't have altars.
But that's probably why they don't have altars.
Are you talking about the Catholic church?  What do they put on their altar?  The bread and wine?

In Judadism an altar was for sacrifice. Offering. A way to cover sins. It needed to be repeated because there was no perfection.
Jesus was that perfect Lamb. By even having an altar it's insinuated sacrifices are still needed. Meaning Jesus wasn't a perfect Lamb.
Maybe my view on it is to gloomy but that's my view....

How are you gonna be saved Molly?
As a sour grape or a raisin 

Actually the first fruits are the tastiest and most beautiful fruit of the bunch.  :winkgrin:

(http://blog.timesunion.com/recipebox/files/2009/04/dragonfruit1.bmp) <--- Molly

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Define "church".  There were Messianic (believers in Yeshua as the Messiah)synagogues as early as 50 AD (James 1:1, 2:2, Heb. 10:27). Constantine and/or the Roman church tried to reinvent the wheel. How successful at it they were depends on your perspective.

[WhiteWings]

I know what you mean by "church". The building was founded in Brittain by Joseph of Arimathea little after 37AD. So that even predates "your" 50AD. And certainly the Roman church.
Imo Constantine wasn't trying to reinvent the wheel but used the "new" religion as a political tool.

If Peter was a pope in Rome nobody can know that because he had to be a well kept secret.
The Romans were hunting down Christians/Jews and Peter build a church in the middle of Rome....
The RCC defenition of church is a building with lots of leaders and a certain doctrine.
A true church is just a bunch of believers that meet somewhere to pray. I think even the prayer section on this forum qualifies as church. Even if Paul was in Rome and had a prayer meeting with say 50 people in a house that still doesn't make him a pope. No doubt Paul had authority/leadership because he had first hand knowledge. But to call that a pope... Protestants, hindus, muslims, wicas, etc all have leadership. Are they all popes?

Constantine was raised as a Christian (I'm suprised by that) in a NONE Catholic way. Centuries later the RCC still didn't recognize the British church Christian. That simply means Constantine founded a different church as  he was raised in.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Yes, well, we were talking buildings in this thread, I thought......however, the church was established on the day of Pentecost in the upper room.

[WhiteWings]

You started the confusion with "define" church  :bigGrin:
I agree church (Biblical defenition) was establisched in the upper room.
It's just that in everyday language means the building.
If you stand outside a huge church and you friend asks lets go to church do you answer: "Ok, your place or mine?"  :winkgrin:
And in this case I think it's even more about the church system than the building.
You know things like teh Pope speaking for Jesus and even having the authority to change teachings of Jesus.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No actually, I really say, "I AM the church; church is wherever I am." And THAT opens a LOT of discussion.... :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

There were times people got stoned to death for saying "I AM"  :winkgrin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: What this response of mine originated from, was the question I get asked every time the Spirit would manifest something towards someone I just met, in prayer, ie. healing, word of knowledge, ect. Invariably, the person's first question to me after that would be, "Where do you go to church?", as if that is "where" they can find Him in this "form" again.

And I would say, "Go? I don't have to GO anywhere.....I AM the church, church is wherever I am". And then either the heretic hunt starts, or they want to know more, LOL......