Post-mortem for the believer/unbeliever

[pilgrim1]

Hi all
When I was an ECTer, I was taught that those who commit their lives to Christ will, upon death (ignoring the topic of soul sleep) be instantly sanctified, glorified made fit for heaven. The unbeliever will be damned for ever.

What do URers believe regarding these two categories of people? Is the scenario just the same for the believer? Or does the believer require some corrective (and painful) process?

I would like some URer to explain the post-mortem 'events' for a) the believer and b) the unbeliever

Thank you.

[Doug]

Hi all
When I was an ECTer, I was taught that those who commit their lives to Christ will, upon death (ignoring the topic of soul sleep) be instantly sanctified, glorified made fit for heaven. The unbeliever will be damned for ever.

What do URers believe regarding these two categories of people? Is the scenario just the same for the believer? Or does the believer require some corrective (and painful) process?

I would like some URer to explain the post-mortem 'events' for a) the believer and b) the unbeliever

Thank you.

There is a variety of opinion on this subject among those who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all. Opinions differ even among those in this forum. Here I will point out a few of the relevant scriptures, with a few comments.

Jesus said all of those in the graves will be raised up:

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

This is John 5:28-29 in the New International Version ©2011. I suggest it is a good idea to compare other translations. The KJV uses the word "damnation" but I think that is not only incorrect but grossly misleading, reflecting sadly misinformed views that have been dominant for centuries, that obscure the light of the gospel. 

Other scriptures indicate that resurrections may not necessarily occur at the same moment for everyone, but some will be raised to life before others.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul's statement "the dead in Christ shall rise first" seems to indicate the saints who have died are the first to be raised. As Paul said above, they will be joined by the saints who are alive, who are changed to immortality. Together they are called "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4]

Notice also that Paul said this happens at "the last trump." I take this to mean the 7th trumpet, described in Revelation 11. The description of that trumpet includes the following:

Revelation 11:17-19
Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

At the coming of Christ, the prophets and the saints will be rewarded. Paul said:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Jesus encouraged us to seek to be among those firstfruits. He said:

Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice in Revelation 7, that there are two groups described in the chapter. The first group, those who are sealed, is the same group mentioned in chapter 14, who are called "the firstfruits."

The second group in Revelation 7 is a great multitude, which no man can number. They would be the rest of mankind, including those who missed out on being included in the group called the "firstfruits."

The scriptures discussed above, and also Matthew 25:31-46, seem fundamental to answering your question. The fact that some are called "firstfruits" implies that a much greater harvest is to follow. And since the church is called a "mother," the harvest that follows the resurrection of the saints will be a time when many more children are born into the kingdom.

Doug

The judgment of Gehenna
Gehenna and the land promise

[pilgrim1]

There is a variety of opinion on this subject among those who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all. Opinions differ even among those in this forum. Here I will point out a few of the relevant scriptures, with a few comments.

Jesus said all of those in the graves will be raised up:

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

This is John 5:28-29 in the New International Version ©2011. I suggest it is a good idea to compare other translations. The KJV uses the word "damnation" but I think that is not only incorrect but grossly misleading, reflecting sadly misinformed views that have been dominant for centuries, that obscure the light of the gospel. 

Other scriptures indicate that resurrections may not necessarily occur at the same moment for everyone, but some will be raised to life before others.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul's statement "the dead in Christ shall rise first" seems to indicate the saints who have died are the first to be raised. As Paul said above, they will be joined by the saints who are alive, who are changed to immortality. Together they are called "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." [Revelation 14:4]

Notice also that Paul said this happens at "the last trump." I take this to mean the 7th trumpet, described in Revelation 11. The description of that trumpet includes the following:

Revelation 11:17-19
Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

At the coming of Christ, the prophets and the saints will be rewarded. Paul said:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Jesus encouraged us to seek to be among those firstfruits. He said:

Luke 21:34-36
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice in Revelation 7, that there are two groups described in the chapter. The first group, those who are sealed, is the same group mentioned in chapter 14, who are called "the firstfruits."

The second group in Revelation 7 is a great multitude, which no man can number. They would be the rest of mankind, including those who missed out on being included in the group called the "firstfruits."

The scriptures discussed above, and also Matthew 25:31-46, seem fundamental to answering your question. The fact that some are called "firstfruits" implies that a much greater harvest is to follow. And since the church is called a "mother," the harvest that follows the resurrection of the saints will be a time when many more children are born into the kingdom.

Doug

The judgment of Gehenna
Gehenna and the land promise

Hi Doug
Thanks for your response.
I'm really not concerned about timings (I'm aware of first & second etc). I also have little doubt that scripture teaches that those who have believed are a small portion of all God will gather in.
My query is as to whether God's corrective work on the believer is finished when this earthly life ends (as is thought by ECTers). Or whether there is more corrective work to be done.
If there is more work to be done (of a corrective/disciplinary nature) then the difference between believers and non-believers becomes less pronounced.

Any ideas? Doug? Anyone?

[Doug]

Hi Doug
Thanks for your response.
I'm really not concerned about timings (I'm aware of first & second etc). I also have little doubt that scripture teaches that those who have believed are a small portion of all God will gather in.
My query is as to whether God's corrective work on the believer is finished when this earthly life ends (as is thought by ECTers). Or whether there is more corrective work to be done.
If there is more work to be done (of a corrective/disciplinary nature) then the difference between believers and non-believers becomes less pronounced.

Any ideas? Doug? Anyone?

When Jesus said, "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day," the context is about fleeing to the mountains. In my view, these mountains are symbolic of promises of God, such as the blessings promised to Jacob, who said, when he was blessing his son Joseph, "the blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Genesis 49:26] The "utmost bound" alludes to their height, suggesting they are lofty, or spiritual, and "everlasting" means eternal. Thus, the mountains represent spiritual things, that the saints are to flee to. To have to flee on the sabbath day could mean that one has to seek those things, at a time when the saints have come into their promised rest. Similarly, to have to flee in the winter, suggests that one has missed out on the harvest, when those who are ready have entered into the kingdom. In the parable of the 10 virgins, the 5 who were ready went in, and the others missed out.

Doug

Gehenna and the land promise