Contradicting Revelations?

[Aleax]

This is something that has always puzzled me. How is it possible that spirit-filled believers receive contradicting revelations, dreams, prophecies etc. on certain issues? Take the rapture thing for instance. Some say "Lord told me there is no rapture", others say "Lord told me the rapture is near". What gives?

(Personally, I don't believe in a rapture, mainly because, to my understanding, this doctrine was never taught anywhere before 1830 or so. But I may be wrong.)

In another thread I wrote about David Pawson and George MacDonald. MacDonald was UR, Pawson's core message is "God does not love his creation. It's all about righteousness, righteousness, righteousness. And even faith is worth nothing unless you become fully sanctified in this life - if you don't, too bad, it'll be eternal torchery for you.) These two persons just can't worship the same God. Yet, both are/were spirit-filled Bible experts?!?

Now, I've been told any revelation must be tested with Scripture, for Satan is going around as a roaring lion deceiving people left and right. This brings further problems on the table as there is no common consensus on how the Bible should be interpreted, really.

Christianity isn't a religion but a relationship. Sometimes I feel like I'm married to someone who I can't ever see and who's only leaving me messages. The problem is, there is another woman who only hates me and she's leaving me messages too, pretending to be my wife. And her writing style seems identical to my wife's. So even if I receive(d) a clear message, how can (could) I be sure it's my wife who loves me and not the other woman who wishes me ill?

[Beloved Servant]

Christianity isn't a religion but a relationship. Sometimes I feel like I'm married to someone who I can't ever see and who's only leaving me messages. The problem is, there is another woman who only hates me and she's leaving me messages too, pretending to be my wife. And her writing style seems identical to my wife's. So even if I receive(d) a clear message, how can (could) I be sure it's my wife who loves me and not the other woman who wishes me ill?

wow, that's pretty good!

For me, I always follow the way that leads to complete peace without any contradiction.
A complete peace of no disturbance, like the Still Waters he leads us beside.
That is the place of His calling.

[Paul Hazelwood]

This is something that has always puzzled me. How is it possible that spirit-filled believers receive contradicting revelations, dreams, prophecies etc. on certain issues? Take the rapture thing for instance. Some say "Lord told me there is no rapture", others say "Lord told me the rapture is near". What gives?

That's a tough one, but rule of thumb for me is that anyone claiming they heard anything from God that is intended to be asserted as something I need to listen to automatically gets filed in the waste can.

I live my life and make the best of things, using the brain God gave me and sometimes trial and error.  I assume all thoughts that I receive carnal until I have thought them out.  Over time, there is a few areas I trust as spiritual revelations and they are private and I do not share them very often.   When it comes to someone saying God said to me this verse means that, doesn't really mean a thing.  Who can't say that about anything they want to come up with?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The problem lies in the receiver, not the sender. I don't believe in the rapture either, yet I believe what HE is has said about being caught up, IS soon. If I belived in the rapture the way most of Christiandom does, I'd still believe it was soon.

The difference is in the perception of what that actually means. Like a radio, some frequencies have a lot of static TO THE RECEIVER, and some are clear as a bell. Even if the stations are playing the same song, the difference is the LOCATION of the hearer. The static is the carnal minds of ourself and the carnal minds of others we receive from, instead of going directly and intimately, to the Source for the new song. My  :2c: Blessings....

[shawn]

This is something that has always puzzled me. How is it possible that spirit-filled believers receive contradicting revelations, dreams, prophecies etc. on certain issues? Take the rapture thing for instance. Some say "Lord told me there is no rapture", others say "Lord told me the rapture is near". What gives?

(Personally, I don't believe in a rapture, mainly because, to my understanding, this doctrine was never taught anywhere before 1830 or so. But I may be wrong.)

In another thread I wrote about David Pawson and George MacDonald. MacDonald was UR, Pawson's core message is "God does not love his creation. It's all about righteousness, righteousness, righteousness. And even faith is worth nothing unless you become fully sanctified in this life - if you don't, too bad, it'll be eternal torchery for you.) These two persons just can't worship the same God. Yet, both are/were spirit-filled Bible experts?!?Now, I've been told any revelation must be tested with Scripture, for Satan is going around as a roaring lion deceiving people left and right. This brings further problems on the table as there is no common consensus on how the Bible should be interpreted, really.

Christianity isn't a religion but a relationship. Sometimes I feel like I'm married to someone who I can't ever see and who's only leaving me messages. The problem is, there is another woman who only hates me and she's leaving me messages too, pretending to be my wife. And her writing style seems identical to my wife's. So even if I receive(d) a clear message, how can (could) I be sure it's my wife who loves me and not the other woman who wishes me ill?

Romans Chapter 10

5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: "The person who does these things will live by them."[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'' (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 "or 'Who will descend into the deep?'"[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

And I have to agree with Beloved.  The path to peace supported by scripture and Holy Spirit revelation is how I discern.

[Lefein]

You will know them by their fruit.  Good fruit is a good revelation, bad fruit is obviously from a wicked tree, or "bad source".

[Beloved Servant]

And they grow all around us.

[thinktank]

Some are wolves in sheeps clothing, having a form of godliness but denying the power,   pretending to have revelation from God.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Aleax...  :cloud9:

I think most people worship their own opinions/observation of God, and not GOD Himself... and then, ...if someone objects to their "opinion/observation", ...then they deduce that person as objecting to GOD...

When one presents multiple witnessess in Scripture to a premise, then the premise is following that which establishes truth -- 2 Cor 13:1 -- but GOD also calls us to REASON WITH HIM -- Isaiah 1:18 --  so if multiple witnesses are presented to you from His WORD, and REASON (which we have the ability to do) is not present in the presentation, then the "understanding" they have of the premise presented is false. 

If in presenting an observation that includes REASON as well as MULTIPLE WITNESSES, ...and others do not agree with the multiple witnesses presented... then they are (as CARDINAL noted in another discussion), ...in a MOMENT where any number of repetitions of that REASON and those WITNESSES will not be heard.

Seek the TRUTH... and KNOW that the TRUTH shall contain REASON... if REASON is not present in that which is taught, ...then neither is the TRUTH -- Isaiah 1:18   

As you seek and discuss, ...hold fast to where you are and keep diligently seeking.  :nod:

It does not matter that men (as you note in your OP) will come in the name of CHRIST and be contradictory one to the other... for it is foretold that this shall be -- Matt 7:22-23 -- Matt 24:5

That some men will make the claim to be teachers of God, does not mean they are...  When Biblical witness in conjunction with REASON is disregarded in discussion, then those disregarding shall not hear... and it is the BIBLE and REASON that is disregarded... not your witness of it.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

Some are wolves in sheeps clothing, having a form of godliness but denying the power,   pretending to have revelation from God.

I suggest and contend that this "war of the wolves," is very evident in the religious and I might add the christian walk. the wolves cannot and will not stand with the very Word of God, and make it complex with the human reasoning and mans compacity of common sense. My contention, it is the very reasoning, thinking, and common sense of man that, that is main stumbling block for understanding or misunderstanding. The Word of God IS, first and foremost founded on faith, without that persuasion then there is nothing, and cannot be anytihing to hold to. The very Truth that the Lord God said it, is either enough or it is not, thus we have the "wolves."

[Aleax]

I just thought I'd bump this thread up, for last night I tried one prophecy site out of curiosity. I'd give you the link, but all the material is in Finnish and 99% of you probably don't understand it.

So, the site included hundreds of prophecies (also some dreams and visions). I didn't read all of them. Some of the stuff was very accurate, but some of the stuff in there seemed so amazingly off base and contradictory that I was left dumbfounded.

Consider this: "I received a message from the Lord: 'Oh, I so want this nation to repent and turn from its evil ways. But it won't do so, for I will harden their hearts, just like I hardened Pharaoh's heart." Umm, okay? If God wants us to repent, why harden our hearts? Is God schizophrenic?

Or this: "In the last days it will be hard to distinguish the true Gospel from the false. For there shall be many deceiving spirits and, I, God, will be also sending a strong delusion." So, if God only wants the best of us, wouldn't the deceiving spirits be enough?

Or this: "the Lord told me George W. Bush will be assassinated before he gets the chance to leave the office. I don't really like him as a person, but being a Christian, I do feel obliged to love him like my neighbor. So I asked Him is there any way to prevent this. The Lord answered me: 'No. It simply will happen'". The Lord made a mistake?!?! (Actually there were SEVERAL prophecies like this.)

Then there were many accounts of visions of a pre-tribulation rapture, the traditional style, believers just vanishing in thin air. On the other hand, there also were many prophecies about believers staying on earth and some of them getting martyred.

There were several eternal torchery prophecies. I noticed they usually had to do with the mark of the beast. Often the message was: "Do not take that mark or all hope is lost. There's nothing that can ever be done for you."

The only thing common to these prophecies seemed to be earthquakes, famines, economic collapse, floods, shortages of food, wars, judgement and all that good stuff. At some point I just sort of got semi-depressed and shut down the browser. Instead of spending the rest of the evening seeking God, I opted to have a few cold ones and play some FIFA Soccer instead. Maybe my spirit was quenched or something like that. I don't know. I feel I'm not spiritual enough to speak in those terms... :laughing7: at any rate, after being done looking at that site I was shortly feeling like Christianity is nothing but psychotic chaos.

Now, my current understanding is that Bible teaches UR and no pre-trib rapture, so I'd have to dismiss any prophecy suggesting any other thing as "not inspired". However, I was still left wondering where does all this contradictory stuff come from? I'd have to assume some people are just pulling it out of their rear ends. Also, I wouldn't under-estimate the potential influence of our subconscious mind. If you spend much time thinking about doom and gloom, you are likely to experience dreams about doom and gloom. Maybe even visions and prophecies? Hey, I actually had a dream like that last night too after reading all that stuff. In the dream I was living under the One World Government and my house was full of microphones installed by them. I couldn't utter a single word without it getting taped and analyzed.

What's my point? What am I aiming at? Not sure if I even know that myself... I guess the experience of reading all that stuff was just a bit too much in the end, and I wanted to get it all out of my system. Uh oh. Thanks for reading.

[WhiteWings]

This is something that has always puzzled me. How is it possible that spirit-filled believers receive contradicting revelations, dreams, prophecies etc. on certain issues? Take the rapture thing for instance. Some say "Lord told me there is no rapture", others say "Lord told me the rapture is near". What gives?

I think many people believe the got a revelation but it was simply generated by their own mind. (dreams etc). So people simply lie. Plus lots of misunderstanding. I've read some revelations. They very often are very short. A cryptic one-liner.
Was the revelation about every possible defenition of rapture or just the one that person believed in?

(Personally, I don't believe in a rapture, mainly because, to my understanding, this doctrine was never taught anywhere before 1830 or so. But I may be wrong.)

A revelation teaches unknown facts. Why are 1830AD revelation less true than 830AD revelations?
Pehaps there are different defenitions of rapture? Or whatever the revelation is about

In another thread I wrote about David Pawson and George MacDonald. MacDonald was UR, Pawson's core message is "God does not love his creation. It's all about righteousness, righteousness, righteousness. And even faith is worth nothing unless you become fully sanctified in this life - if you don't, too bad, it'll be eternal torchery for you.) These two persons just can't worship the same God. Yet, both are/were spirit-filled Bible experts?!?

Can you really know they are believers? Or just people earning some $ ?

Now, I've been told any revelation must be tested with Scripture, for Satan is going around as a roaring lion deceiving people left and right. This brings further problems on the table as there is no common consensus on how the Bible should be interpreted, really.

True.

[WhiteWings]

Some of the stuff was very accurate, but some of the stuff in there seemed so amazingly off base and contradictory that I was left dumbfounded.

Revelations usually are quite useless. They are often false or misunderstood.

Consider this: "I received a message from the Lord: 'Oh, I so want this nation to repent and turn from its evil ways. But it won't do so, for I will harden their hearts, just like I hardened Pharaoh's heart." Umm, okay? If God wants us to repent, why harden our hearts? Is God schizophrenic?

^YLT2Thess 2
11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

The only thing common to these prophecies seemed to be earthquakes, famines, economic collapse, floods, shortages of food, wars, judgement and all that good stuff.

Are that really revelations? That stuff is 'known' for many many years. Why revelations about things people already believe in. Did those people believe othewise before the revelation?

Now, my current understanding is that Bible teaches UR and no pre-trib rapture, so I'd have to dismiss any prophecy suggesting any other thing as "not inspired".

I just got a thought. Was it a revelation?
Say someone that believe in a classic rapture recieves a revation that rapture is false. Does it mean that only his rapture model is false or all possible models.
As an example the classic rapture is taking people to heaven. But what about a rapture in which people are given belief. Their mind is raptured so to speak.

However, I was still left wondering where does all this contradictory stuff come from? I'd have to assume some people are just pulling it out of their rear ends. Also, I wouldn't under-estimate the potential influence of our subconscious mind. If you spend much time thinking about doom and gloom, you are likely to experience dreams about doom and gloom. Maybe even visions and prophecies? Hey, I actually had a dream like that last night too after reading all that stuff. In the dream I was living under the One World Government and my house was full of microphones installed by them. I couldn't utter a single word without it getting taped and analyzed.

Exactly my thought. Imagine someone who makes a lifes work of discussing NWO. Then s/he gets a simple dream but calls it a revelation.

[thinktank]

People say prophets must be 100% accurate and quote the old testament scripture concerning that. But when was the last time a prophet got things 100%, 2000 years ago?

I think a 100% record is being unrealistic and if true it means that each church, which according to the apostle Paul should seek the gifts of speaking in tongues, prophecying, healing, so how many of these prophets have a 100% record? If none, then it seems prophecy is a pointless gift, if one thinks 100% record is neccesary to be be a true prophet. It would mean each church, or group would be full of false prophets and not a single True prophet.

Maybe there is a 100% true prophet out there that are hard to find...but according to Paul it seems that prophecying should be a sought after gift that operates in each church.
:2c:

[Miriam]

The Lord made a mistake?!?! (Actually there were SEVERAL prophecies like this.)

This reminds me of a story I heard a preacher tell of a prophecy given at a meeting he attended. Someone stood up and said something like, "Behold, says the Lord, just as Abraham lifted up the snake in the desert so shall I be lifted up in this place." For a few moments the rest of the congregation were left thinking "???" and then the same person stood up again and said, "Behold, says the Lord, I am mistaken. For lo, it was not Abraham who lifted up the snake, but Moses."  :laughing7:

Instead of spending the rest of the evening seeking God, I opted to have a few cold ones and play some FIFA Soccer instead.

Probably about the most spiritual thing you could have done. I think sometimes we all take ourselves a bit too seriously and I'm amazed at the amount of revelation some people reckon they receive. Personally I bumble along most of the time, living life in the light of the truth I have now, which is rather different to the light I had 30 years ago when I first became a Christian... whatever that phrase means... 

[Molly]

Hi Aleax,
I had one of those dreams last week.  As I woke up, I was reading handwriting, and it said something like--You are out of time, there is no more time, --The meaning to me was--that's it, no more time, time's up.  I wrote down the exact words but then lost them.  I told one friend.  It was a little disturbing lol.

But today, I was listening to a random youtube and my eyes popped opened.  Take a listen--at 1:53.  I don't know who this guy is but his message hit me like a ton of bricks.  It's the same message but he interprets it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k42wCJfRHao&feature=player_embedded

[WhiteWings]

The meaning to me was--that's it, no more time, time's up.

I'll return soon. Jesus 31 AD....

[Molly]

The meaning to me was--that's it, no more time, time's up.

I'll return soon. Jesus 31 AD....

The hubble, scheduled in '07,
To end it's time above the heaven,
Was retrofit for another five.
We don't know why, it's classified.

The Spitzer launched in ought o three--
The largest one to ever be,
Sophia, too, and SPT,
what is it that they hope to see?

They're building high, they're building low,
above the sky,-- and down below
the tunnels and the workmen run.
Are they fleeing from a second sun?

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch."

"But to you who fear My name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go out and grow fat like stall-fed calves.

--Malachi 4

[Molly]

You think I joke,
But not so fast.
I saved the very best
For last.


The new Vatican telescope...

LUCIFER allows astronomers to watch stars being born
The new instrument on the Large Binocular Telescope is a powerful tool that will gain spectacular insights into the universe — from the Milky Way to extremely distant galaxies
Provided by the University of Arizona, Tucson
April 23, 2010
A new instrument for the world's largest optical telescope, the Large Binocular Telescope (LBT) on Mount Graham, allows astronomers to observe the faintest and most distant objects in the universe.

The LBT partners in the U.S., Germany, and Italy announced April 21 that the first of two new innovative near-infrared cameras/spectrographs for the LBT is now available to astronomers for scientific observations at the telescope on Mount Graham in southeastern Arizona.

LUCIFER 1 and its twin are mounted at the focus points of the LBT's two giant 27.6-foot-diameter (8.4 meters) telescope mirrors. Each instrument is cooled to -351° Fahrenheit (-213° Celsius) in order to observe in the near-infrared wavelength range. Near-infrared observations are essential for understanding the formation of stars and planets in our galaxy as well as revealing the secrets of the most distant and young galaxies.

LUCIFER's innovative design allows astronomers to observe star-forming regions in unprecedented detail, which are commonly hidden by dust clouds.


"With the large light-gathering power of the LBT, astronomers are now able to collect the spectral fingerprints of the faintest and most distant objects in the universe," said LBT director Richard Green, a professor of astronomy at the University of Arizona's Steward Observatory.


http://www.astronomy.com/en/sitecore/content/Home/News-Observing/News/2010/04/LUCIFER%20allows%20astronomers%20to%20watch%20stars%20being%20born.aspx

[Nathan]

Personally, I think we're getting "revelation" mixed up with "prophecy".  Revelation is an inward experience and prophecy is an outward pronouncment.  A prophet is one who speaks on another's behalf.  Aaron was Moses prophet, Moses was God's prophet. 

I think revelation can "become" prophecy as the one who has an inward revelation shares what he sees . . .but I often wince at the guy who declares "thus saith the Lord . . . ." in front of people he's never met.  I'm not saying it never happens, I'd never put God in a box, but he does lay down some spiritual principles through which prophecy flows.  Everything is based on relationship. 

And, like everything else, I think the church has religionized prophesying into a whole other beast that it was never originally intended to be.  I just saw on msn that John Haggee is drawing that perverbial line in the sand pertaining to those who separate themselves from Israel, separate themselves from God.  I'm not saying that is or isn't true, I "am" saying that this guy is one of the many who inflict fear into the church and call it God.  So when he makes broad statements such as that . . and yes, I'm well aware of what Scriptures he's eluding to . . .and I truly believe those words God gave were to be taken literally by those to whom it was literally written to.  But naturally speaking . . .is that then to say that I'll be "more" blessed if I bless a Jew than I would if I blessed a Gentile instead?

[micah7:9]

BRAVO! and AMEN! :grin: :thumbsup:

[Miriam]

I think that's very insightful, Nathan.  :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Confusion over what prophecy is abounds in churchdom, because they have not proceeded with the Spirit to follow the patterns He established. The speaking gifts operate in the NT in order, with word of knowledge first, word of wisdom second, and THEN to prophesy. The root of prophesy is to declare those things that are not as though they were, which only GOD can do effectually, and it is the same working of the Spirit as when the Spirit moved upon the face of the waters in Genesis.

To declare is what a King does from the throne, He makes a declaration and IT IS SO. It CHANGES things that ARE, into what HE desires it to be, it does not predict what you're going to have for lunch next Tuesday. Let the soothsayers and psychics do that..... :winkgrin: :laughing7: