THE BIG ENCHILADA

[firstborn888]

   Becoming outspoken on UR has become an eye-opening experience. What has become clear to me is that eternal torment is not just a teaching by itself, but is actually a part of a larger world view.   
   
   At the heart of my understanding of God is a simple concept: All of creation, INCLUDING THE FALL OF MANKIND, was and is the plan of God. The fall was not just a 'possibility' or the pre-determined risk of free-will, but it was the design all along.

   The main way I've heard people justify eternal torment doctrine is to say that satan started all this by rebelling in 'heaven', then brought his sinister rebellion to earth and by deceiving man he managed to hi-jack earth as well, so now God has no choice but to make examples of their horribleness by sentencing them to roast alive in full view forever, although (because He is Love) He did make a way out for those intelligent enough or sorry enough or tender hearted enough (or whatever) to repent.
   The mainstream view seems to be that God sent Jesus as a damage control effort, and that (only because He knew the future) God planned redemption and kept that plan in His back pocket until the fullness of time came for Jesus to be born etc. etc.
This is how many people live with the concept of un-ending punishment: "It ain't God's fault, He had nothing to do with it".
    That's why I speak out about the serpent (who was a murderer and liar 'from the beginning') being placed in the Garden, because it clearly shows a plan and purpose - not some spontaneous fight that erupted in God's domain.
    This seems in many ways to be the great divide and the underlying concept behind people's view of God.
     More proof to me that satan and demons are not God's 'fallen angels' is that redemtion/return for them is never offered.
   Comments?
   - byron
     

[hopeful]

   What has become clear to me is that eternal torment is not just a teaching by itself, but is actually a part of a larger world view.   

Byron, I'm seeing this more and more as time goes on.  The Lord continues to show me the layers of the foundation of eternal torment and the foundation is deeper than I originally thought.  Maybe "layers of the foundation" isn't the best analogy...  But when you say "larger world view" I know what you're saying.

Holly

[shibboleth]

I think it also has a lot to do with false pride. Don't we all, before God renews our mind, believe that we did something right? We made a decision to ask Jesus into our hearts? We asked Jesus to be our Saviour? We had faith and believed. We, We, We, or rather I, I, I....all about what I did and said that made myself acceptable to God. Once God showed me it was all HIM, HIM, HIM, then I realized I had nothing to do with my salvation.
Being on ET forums has really showed me how I used to think. I see myself in these people because I used to think just like them. I used the same scriptures, thought the same thoughts and condemned those who didn't accept Christ to an eternity of suffering and pain. How foolish I was. I realize their eyes will never be opened until the Father chooses to open them. I only pray He opens more and more eyes over the years, so we can all come into the knowledge of the truth of who Christ is.

[jchpiper]

   Becoming outspoken on UR has become an eye-opening experience. What has become clear to me is that eternal torment is not just a teaching by itself, but is actually a part of a larger world view.   
   
   At the heart of my understanding of God is a simple concept: All of creation, INCLUDING THE FALL OF MANKIND, was and is the plan of God. The fall was not just a 'possibility' or the pre-determined risk of free-will, but it was the design all along.

   The main way I've heard people justify eternal torment doctrine is to say that satan started all this by rebelling in 'heaven', then brought his sinister rebellion to earth and by deceiving man he managed to hi-jack earth as well, so now God has no choice but to make examples of their horribleness by sentencing them to roast alive in full view forever, although (because He is Love) He did make a way out for those intelligent enough or sorry enough or tender hearted enough (or whatever) to repent.
   The mainstream view seems to be that God sent Jesus as a damage control effort, and that (only because He knew the future) God planned redemption and kept that plan in His back pocket until the fullness of time came for Jesus to be born etc. etc.
This is how many people live with the concept of un-ending punishment: "It ain't God's fault, He had nothing to do with it".
    That's why I speak out about the serpent (who was a murderer and liar 'from the beginning') being placed in the Garden, because it clearly shows a plan and purpose - not some spontaneous fight that erupted in God's domain.
    This seems in many ways to be the great divide and the underlying concept behind people's view of God.
     More proof to me that satan and demons are not God's 'fallen angels' is that redemtion/return for them is never offered.
   Comments?
   - byron
     

Carol is chewing on this.

It kind of ties in with stuff I've been rolling over, reading and re-reading, and asking for understanding regarding.  It's kind of like having something on the tip of your tongue, but just can't quite recall it.  You know it's there, but not quite sure what it is?

I've been in Romans 9 - 11 lately....trying to understand God hardening (strengthening) the heart in order for consequences to consequent as a part of God's mercy which results in repentence. (Gosh..what a run-on sentence.) In the past I've put statements like "God  hardening the heart" in the category of the figure of speech idiom of permission; that is  God allowing a person to harden their own heart.

I have a difficult time thinking God, who is all light, would intentionally design evil.
Also, I've believed so much in "free" will, that it is a stretch of my mind to balance this pre-planning stuff.

Somehow this relates (for me) to what you have stated Byron.  Not that I have reached any conclusive thinking on it.  But hey....at least I'm thinking about it.  :bigGrin:


blessings,
~carol

[Taffy]

yo Byron##
Ones starts from a false premise then the result surely is more confusion....seems we all start in DARKNESS

The END was worked out BY the BEGINNING...yes bro AMEN.

LETS just say this

Say GOD created SATAN  the fallen angel Lucifer...

The angel of all ANGELS FALLEN...has it not occurred to folk that IF this be the case and HE rebelled...when the sons of GOD also have immortal ( bodies)

whats stopping them from FALLING INTO REBELLION...? :mblush:.

ANYWAYS..

WITHOUT bringing up the old red fella again.....GODS plan from the BEGINNING WAS FLAWLESS.....


The layers of the ONION run DEEP...one can only say for those who SEEK HIM will find HIM...

Nice pic Bro :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

[rebeccat]

I think that what you're saying is true.  I think of it as parents with their kids.  If I live next to a busy highway, I'm not going to leave my toddlers out front with no fence or direct supervision and then say, "well, I told them not to run out into the street" when they get slammed by a passing semi.  Yet we're supposed to believe that rather than locking the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in an inaccessable place, God stuck it smack dab in the middle of everything but isn't responsible for the results? 
I'll give you one further.  I think that Adam and Eve were in on it.  After all, God used to walk face-to-face in the evening with Adam.  The order not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was an odd one which man and God must have talked about. 
Which leads us to consider the idea that there is/was some benefit to the whole thing; ie that there is some benefit to struggling with evil which cannot be achieved some other way. 
Perhaps this is part of the world view which makes UR so hard for many people to accept - we don't like the idea that God would deliberately set up a world where we suffer and horrific things happen.  We'd rather have a God for whom love is all fluffy sweetness than a God who is powerful, sovereign and willing to do whatever and ask for whatever, it takes to make us holy and perfect.
On the "reconciling the meaning God" thread, I mentioned the question which bothers me - that being the casual cruelty and infliction of pain demonstrated by predators against prey and what that says about God.  I've been meditation on this for a long time now, and I think I am beginning to see that these issue of the role of evil in this world and the callousness of predators are related.
My, what sweet and pleasant thoughts I found myself spouting here!   :mshock:  I think I need to go eat a cookie and see if I can't regain some balance now.