What were the Nephilim

[Molly]

Note that the "Sons of God" are very different than angels, and are quite capable of having sexual relations with humans that will produce multi-generational offspring, because the two species are precisely the same in anatomical and somatical constitution. Angels, however, are different in their lack of ability to produce offspring, though angels look very much like humans (both males and females). By the way, "wings" on angels are metaphorical.

I tend to agree with this.  The translators throw around that word, 'angels, ' applying it to all sorts of supernatural beings as well as men.  But, remember, the archangel Michael could not fight an equal battle with Satan over Moses' body, so he called on the Lord to rebuke him.  That makes me think that Satan is a higher being than Michael.

The sons of God are more appropriately called 'gods,' hence elohiym.  It is these that we are meant to replace.  Doesn't that make more sense as to why Satan wanted Adam failed, separated from God, and dead?

PS gods and humans mating was a regular occurence among the Greek myths [religion];Roman, too.

[WhiteWings]

Note that the "Sons of God" are very different than angels, and are quite capable of having sexual relations with humans that will produce multi-generational offspring, because the two species are precisely the same in anatomical and somatical constitution. Angels, however, are different in their lack of ability to produce offspring, though angels look very much like humans (both males and females). By the way, "wings" on angels are metaphorical.

I tend to agree with this.

So Nephlim are not fallen angels.
^YLTJob 1
6 And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.
Mankind never had access to heaven. So that would rule out the sons of God being humans.
I wonder why satan is mentioned being in their midst. He just happend to be there? Or more likely it states Satan was/is a son of God. The leader of them. But if satan is a Nephlim why isn't he chained?

The translators throw around that word, 'angels, ' applying it to all sorts of supernatural beings as well as men.

To solve this puzzle we need to clear our mind of those things. It's very easy to llet church doctrine muddle 'research'.

PS gods and humans mating was a regular occurence among the Greek myths [religion];Roman, too.

If that proves anything it's that the Bible teaches the opposite.... :happy3:

[Molly]

So Nephlim are not fallen angels.

I've always thought  the nephilim would refer to the offspring of the sons of God and human wives.  They are 'mighty men' --gibbor.  It is the sons of God doing this who are referred to as 'fallen angels' in a colloquial sense.  Satan would be one of the sons of God.

Goliath would be a nephilim.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

"giants"

H5303
נפל    נפיל
nephı̂yl  nephil
nef-eel', nef-eel'
From H5307properly, a feller, that is, a bully or tyrant: - giant.


H5307
נפל
nâphal
naw-fal'
A primitive root; to fall, in a great variety of applications (intransitively or causatively, literally or figuratively): - be accepted, cast (down, self, [lots], out), cease, die, divide (by lot), (let) fail, (cause to, let, make, ready to) fall (away, down, -en, -ing), fell (-ing), fugitive, have [inheritamce], inferior, be judged [by mistake for H6419], lay (along), (cause to) lie down, light (down), be (X hast) lost, lying, overthrow, overwhelm, perish, present (-ed, -ing), (make to) rot, slay, smite out, X surely, throw down.


4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days. That was when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. The Nephilim were the heroes of long ago. They were famous men. Nephilim were also on the earth later on.
--Gen 6

[Molly]

Satan does get chained at the end of the age.


Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[Molly]

This is kind of interesting.  If we trace back the 'divine right of kings' doctrine employed by the royal families of Europe and Eastern cultures as well, it traces back to what we would call  nephilim.  These people think they're gods.  That's probably why they are so obsessed about bloodline.

The Scots textbooks of the divine right of kings were written in 1597-98 by James VI of Scotland before his accession to the English throne. His Basilikon Doron, a manual on the duties of a king, was written to edify his four-year-old son Henry Frederick, who died young. According to the text, a good king "acknowledgeth himself ordained for his people, having received from the god a burden of government, whereof he must be countable". The idea of the divine right to rule has appeared in many cultures Eastern and Western spanning all the way back to the first god king Gilgamesh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_right_of_kings



In the Qumran scroll known as Book of Giants (ca. 100 BC) the names of Gilgamesh and Humbaba appear as two of the antediluvian giants (in consonantal form), rendered as glgmš and ḩwbbyš. This same text was later used in the Middle East by the Manichaean sects, and the Arabic form Jiljamish survives as the name of a demon according to the Egyptian cleric Al-Suyuti (ca. 1500).[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh

[WhiteWings]

Satan would be one of the sons of God.

And he was a murderer from the beginning. Meaning before the flood. Why is he still free when Jude 1:6 claims they are chained?

4There were giants in the earth in those days
--> When exactly was that?

and also after that
--> there were also giants after that period

when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them,
--> hybrids are born

the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
--> The hybrids are men of renown. (not the nephlim)
--> So at that time there were: humans, nephlim and hybrids

The whole sons of God thing is a little strange. Jesus is the Son of God but is always called the son of man(kind).

^EBRJohn 3
16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,––that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age–abiding.

Of course there is a difference between begotten and created but still it's strange Jesus isn't the son of God but the son of mankind

The Nephilim as well as
the "children of Elokim" refers to
men, not "fallen angels" or any
misinterpretation like that. See the
authentic Bible commentators such
as Rashi. The Jews are those to
whom G-d entrusted His Torah, and
they must be the exclusive authority
sought out to determine the meaning
of the passages in the Bible

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/nephilim.html

[WhiteWings]

Satan does get chained at the end of the age.


Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I know. But why did God chain others but not satan?

[Molly]

Satan does get chained at the end of the age.


Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I know. But why did God chain others but not satan?

Because he didn't chain all the sons of God before the flood, just those who left their first estate and started messing with the children of Adam, creating offspring.  But Genesis 6 says the nephilim existed after--which I take to meaning after the flood.

We are only working with one sentence here lol.

There's a lot more on this in other books not contained in our Bible.

But, later, after the tower of Babel, God places the sons of God over the nations as rulers.  And, God keeps Israel for himself.

[Molly]

Of course there is a difference between begotten and created but still it's strange Jesus isn't the son of God but the son of mankind

He refers to himself as the son of Adam, referencing the generation of Adam in Gen 5.  He is making it clear that he is the kinsman redeemer of the offspring of Adam, that is, mankind.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

--> So at that time there were: humans, nephlim and hybrids

well, now you are confusing me because the nephalim were the hybrid of gods and men.  They also had children going forward.  So somebody might be a third generation nephal for instance--but still a hybrid.

The mighty men of old refers to their reputation I think.

[Molly]

4There were giants in the earth in those days
--> When exactly was that?

and also after that
--> there were also giants after that period

This chapter [Gen 6] is talking about the flood.  So I assume, and I think reasonably so,  that before that and after that refers to the flood.

We see lots of references to the giants [nephalim] after the flood as well.

[WhiteWings]

Of course there is a difference between begotten and created but still it's strange Jesus isn't the son of God but the son of mankind

He refers to himself as the son of Adam, referencing the generation of Adam in Gen 5.  He is making it clear that he is the kinsman redeemer of the offspring of Adam, that is, mankind.

You are missing my point Molly. He is teh Son of God BUT He calls Himself Son of Man. So if a Son of man is the son of God how much value can we put in sons of God being sons of God?

--> So at that time there were: humans, nephlim and hybrids

well, now you are confusing me because the nephalim were the hybrid of gods and men.

That's not how I read the verse. There were Nephlim BEFORE the mated with humans.

They also had children going forward.

And only those children are called men of renown.

So somebody might be a third generation nephal for instance--but still a hybrid

I don't agree with that.
Not possible but assume we crossbreed a rabbit with a dog. Would you call the offspring, no matter the number of generations, a parrot or a dog? I would call the offspring radogs...
So they are no 3rd generation rabbits. They are 3rd generation radogs. (assuming they keep they only mate with other radogs)

[Molly]

I don't agree with that.
Not possible but assume a we crossbreed...

Joshua 13:12
All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.


Here they are called the remnant of the giants which word is nephalim.  So, they are the remnants of the nephalim which is the same as nephilim in my book.  I see it as less like cat and dog mating and more like Irish and Italian lol.  Because don't forget, Adam was a son of God and intended to be one of these 'gods' [elohiym] before the fall.  He's called al Adam in the garden.

If you understand this, you understand better the wars that God led the Israelites to fight.

You are missing my point Molly.

I guess I am.  I don't understand what you are saying.  The sons of God did not become human, they mated with humans.  Jesus became human, the Word made flesh.

And to make this clear, he points to Adam, calling himself, son of Adam.

[WhiteWings]

I don't agree with that.
Not possible but assume a we crossbreed...

Joshua 13:12
All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.


Here they are called the remnant of the giants which word is nephalim.

Nope. Only in 1-3 verses  the giants are nephlim. In this verse:
רפה  /  רפא
râphâ'  /  râphâh
BDB Definition:
1) giants, Rephaim
1a) old tribe of giants
Part of Speech: noun proper, of tribe, gentilic
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7495 in the sense of invigorating
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2198d

Last of the cross breeds.

I see it as less like cat and dog mating and more like Irish and Italian lol.

What breed is the puppy? Irish? Italian? Or American?  :laughing7:

Because don't forget, Adam was a son of God and intended to be one of these 'gods' [elohiym] before the fall.

So plan A failed....

You are missing my point Molly.

I guess I am.  I don't understand what you are saying.  The sons of God did not become human, they mated with humans.

That automatically means the offspring is a hybrid.

[Nancy]

Hi there all,

Haven't posted for ages but when i saw this post i knew i had to contribute to this discussion.

I don't know if any of you are have read or know about Zecharia Sitchin or Alan Alford, etc but they have looked into the ancient Sumerian, Akkadian and Babylonian texts and although they have been derided as myths, these texts speak about flesh and blood 'gods' who came down to earth and created mankind and brought with them civilisation. Before anyone as a christian poo poos these ideas, remember that the writings that have come down to us in the old testament often have been taken from these exact sumerian texts, especially noahs ark.  In the sumerian text, it was called the epic of gilgamesh. And there is also a creation text.

To me that's why lots of biblical texts don't make sense if we are talking about a universal God who causes nuclear holocausts in Sodom and Gomorrah. 

I don't know what to believe in anymore as regards to the bible and its descriptions of 'god'.

Godbless
Nancy

[Molly]

Nope. Only in 1-3 verses  the giants are nephlim. In this verse:
רפה  /  רפא
râphâ'  /  râphâh
BDB Definition:
1) giants, Rephaim
1a) old tribe of giants
Part of Speech: noun proper, of tribe, gentilic
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H7495 in the sense of invigorating
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2198d

Last of the cross breeds.

That's true, they are called Raphaim there.  There are different peoples also, called Anakim, Emim.  But they are all giants, therefore considered descendents of Nephilim.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11
"The Emim lived there formerly, a people as great, numerous, and tall as the Anakim. Like the Anakim, they are regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim."

At first glance it would seem these beings, along with the Anakim and Emim, were different appellations for the same group of people. They were all "regarded" as Rephaim.

Though these groups were indeed very closely related, they were different factions of descendants from the Nephilim. This verse, then, seems to muddy the already muddied waters.

One must look at the Hebrew word translated "regarded". The Hebrew word is "Chashab". According to Spiro Zodhiates, this word is used 121 times in the Old Testament.

Chashab literally means to count, to count for, to impute, to esteem, to reckon. The fundamental idea of Chashab is that of "using the mind in the activity of thinking".

With this interpretation, then, these three groups were not meant to be figured as the same group of people. Rather, the Israelites thought of these people along the same lines as they did the Anakim and the Emim.

They were a mighty people of great size. The Emim are said to have been a tribe of the Rephaim. By the time of the conquest, these people had nearly vanished from Canaan. The Rephaim's demise can be gleamed from Deuteronomy 3:11.

"For only Og king of Bashon was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bedstead was an iron bedstead; it is in Rabbah of the sons of Ammon. Its length was nine cubits and its width four cubits by ordinary cubit."

Og, king of Bashon, was said to have been the last of the Rephaim. Og is an extremely interesting person in the Old Testament.

Og and Sihon, king of Gilead, were feared warriors and monarchs prior to the Israelite's entrance into Canaan. Scripture describes Og as a giant. His bed was over 14 feet long, and over 6 feet wide! Not only that, it was made of iron. Iron was no doubt needed to support such a large body, which most certainly weighed hundreds of pounds. Nephilim giants such as Og, according to some scholars, may have been numerous at this time in the history of Palestine.

http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/rephaim.html

[Lefein]

Personally, I don't think the "Nephilim" are all that important.  They aren't exactly the central theme to the Bible's narrative.

As for the days of Noah, I think we should be more concerned with our human neighbor's behaviour than some shadow-species we don't even know about.  The Bible is a book of God's dealings with man - not a beastiary on the various kinds of beings in the universe.

[Molly]

Hi there all,

Haven't posted for ages but when i saw this post i knew i had to contribute to this discussion.

I don't know if any of you are have read or know about Zecharia Sitchin or Alan Alford, etc but they have looked into the ancient Sumerian, Akkadian and Babylonian texts and although they have been derided as myths, these texts speak about flesh and blood 'gods' who came down to earth and created mankind and brought with them civilisation. Before anyone as a christian poo poos these ideas, remember that the writings that have come down to us in the old testament often have been taken from these exact sumerian texts, especially noahs ark.  In the sumerian text, it was called the epic of gilgamesh. And there is also a creation text.

To me that's why lots of biblical texts don't make sense if we are talking about a universal God who causes nuclear holocausts in Sodom and Gomorrah. 

I don't know what to believe in anymore as regards to the bible and its descriptions of 'god'.

Godbless
Nancy

Hi Nancy, take a look at what Michael Heiser has to say about Sitchin.  You can find it on youtube, maybe I'll look for you later.  He basically calls him a hack.  Sitchin has no credentials as an ancient near east scholar and makes a lot of stuff up.

However, it is most certainly true that the other neighbors of the Israelites at that time, and before, had many of the same understandings of God as did the Israelites, but interpreted what they understood differently.  It's a long story, but these peoples were not copying from each other so much as gaining increasing revelation of the LORD God of Israel and who he is, which is given in its most complete form at the time to the Israelites.

We today have an even clearer revelation of him through the Lord Jesus Christ.

That's a very reasonable way to look at it all.

They called Pharoah a 'god.'  Was he a god?  Maybe the story of the nephilim casts some light on that.  But, we see Moses make short work of the Pharoah in Exodus.  And, that was the point.  God or not, the Pharoah was no match for the LORD God of Israel.

[Molly]

Personally, I don't think the "Nephilim" are all that important.  They aren't exactly the central theme to the Bible's narrative.

As for the days of Noah, I think we should be more concerned with our human neighbor's behaviour than some shadow-species we don't even know about.  The Bible is a book of God's dealings with man - not a beastiary on the various kinds of beings in the universe.

I don't think that's really a fair way to look at it because for instance--

Eph 6 tells us to vibrate against these [evil] spiritual beings.  We are told to put on the armor of God because we are the spiritual army of the Lord [of hosts].

We are fighting a spiritual war today as much as Joshua was fighting a physical war in his day--against the same beings and their descendants/minions.  The difference is that we are equipped to fight in a way that those in the OT were not.

This is certainly one very fair interpretation of what we are reading about in our Bible.

[Lefein]

We are not even aware of what they are, let alone if they are all "evil".  It only says that they were men of renown, men of fame - not evil. 

It was not that they themselves were evil, or the source of evil - except that they too along with everyone except Noah had become evil for what ever reason or another.

[Molly]

We are not even aware of what they are, let alone if they are all "evil".  It only says that they were men of renown, men of fame - not evil. 

It was not that they themselves were evil, or the source of evil - except that they too along with everyone except Noah had become evil for what ever reason or another.

well, I think it's implied that they are evil, and that they led men astray before the flood, but we certainly could disagree about that.  I personally think it's pretty clear their descendants and followers are considered evil by God in the OT, but we could disagree about that.

But I don't think we could disagree about what Paul says--

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
--Eph 6

[Lefein]

I would not call those principalities and powers Nephilim.  Nephilim are mortal creatures, what ever they may be.

[Molly]

I would not call those principalities and powers Nephilim.  Nephilim are mortal creatures, what ever they may be.

Are they mortal?  They are part 'god' after all.

I don't like to bring in other books, but just a peak at other books maybe...

You might be surprised at what the satanists of this age worship...


The Apocrypha claim the disembodied Nephilim are the origin of demons, and accuse them of many crimes. Jubilees places the blame for the Flood squarely upon the fornication of the Watchers and the iniquity and bloodshed of the Nephilim. "And now the giants who were born from souls and flesh will be called evil spirits upon the earth," charges I Enoch XV-XVI, "From the day of...the slaughter and destruction of the giant Nephilim, the mighty ones of the earth, the great famous ones, the spirits that have gone out from their souls as from the flesh will destroy without judgment." Even the mortal women who are their mothers are cursed to become sirens and demonesses. In Jubilees X:1-6, Noah's sons beg him to protect their children from "unclean demons" who are "leading astray, blinding and killing" them; Noah, petitioning God to "let not wicked spirits rule over [my grandchildren] and destroy them", adds, "Thou knowest what thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, did in my day..." making it clear that the demonic spirits and the Nephilim are considered one and the same.

http://www.bibleprobe.com/nephilim.htm

[WhiteWings]

That's true, they are called Raphaim there.  There are different peoples also, called Anakim, Emim.  But they are all giants, therefore considered descendents of Nephilim.

Sure their ancestors were Nephlim. But also human. Say the Neplim were 5m tall and their hybrid children 3m then both would be regarded as giants. But they are different.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11
"The Emim lived there formerly, a people as great, numerous, and tall as the Anakim. Like the Anakim, they are regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim."

At first glance it would seem these beings, along with the Anakim and Emim, were different appellations for the same group of people. They were all "regarded" as Rephaim.

Though these groups were indeed very closely related, they were different factions of descendants from the Nephilim. This verse, then, seems to muddy the already muddied waters.

Not at all. A wide family tree starts from Adam and Eve. At a certain point the people become unrelated. Different factions. Same for the Nephlim marriages. Unrelated Nephplim mate with unrelated humans. Then the result simply is unrelated off-spring.

One must look at the Hebrew word translated "regarded". The Hebrew word is "Chashab". According to Spiro Zodhiates, this word is used 121 times in the Old Testament.

122.
Gen 15:6
Gen 31:15
Gen 38:15
Gen 50:20
Exod 26:1
Exod 26:31
Exod 28:6
Exod 28:15
Exod 31:4
Exod 35:32
Exod 35:35
Exod 36:8
Exod 36:35
Exod 38:23
Exod 39:3
Exod 39:8
Lev 7:18
Lev 17:4
Lev 25:27
Lev 25:31
Lev 25:50
Lev 25:52
Lev 27:18
Lev 27:23
Num 18:27
Num 18:30
Num 23:9
Deut 2:11
Deut 2:20
Josh 13:3
1Sam 1:13
1Sam 18:25
2Sam 4:2
2Sam 14:13
2Sam 14:14
2Sam 19:19
1Kgs 10:21
2Kgs 12:15
2Kgs 22:7
2Chr 2:14
2Chr 9:20
2Chr 26:15
Neh 6:2
Neh 6:6
Neh 13:13
Esth 8:3
Esth 9:24
Esth 9:25
Job 6:26
Job 13:24
Job 18:3
Job 19:11
Job 19:15
Job 33:10
Job 35:2
Job 41:27
Job 41:29
Job 41:32
Ps 10:2
Ps 21:11
Ps 32:2
Ps 35:4
Ps 35:20
Ps 36:4
Ps 40:17
Ps 41:7
Ps 44:22
Ps 52:2
Ps 73:16
Ps 77:5
Ps 88:4
Ps 106:31
Ps 119:59
Ps 140:2
Ps 140:4
Ps 144:3
Prov 16:9
Prov 16:30
Prov 17:28
Prov 24:8
Prov 27:14
Isa 2:22
Isa 5:28
Isa 10:7
Isa 13:17
Isa 29:16
Isa 29:17
Isa 32:15
Isa 33:8
Isa 40:15
Isa 40:17
Isa 53:3
Isa 53:4
Jer 11:19
Jer 18:8
Jer 18:11
Jer 18:18
Jer 23:27
Jer 26:3
Jer 29:11
Jer 36:3
Jer 48:2
Jer 49:20
Jer 49:30
Jer 50:45
Lam 2:8
Lam 4:2
Ezek 11:2
Ezek 38:10
Dan 11:24
Dan 11:25
Hos 7:15
Hos 8:12
Amos 6:5
Jonah 1:4
Mic 2:1
Mic 2:3
Nah 1:9
Nah 1:11
Zech 7:10
Zech 8:17
Mal 3:16

"For only Og king of Bashon was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bedstead was an iron bedstead; it is in Rabbah of the sons of Ammon. Its length was nine cubits and its width four cubits by ordinary cubit."

Let me be clear Molly; that's a giant. I'm not denying that. But the way I see it those giants are not pure Nephlim. Both a camel and a elephant are big animals but not the same.

[WhiteWings]

We are not even aware of what they are, let alone if they are all "evil".  It only says that they were men of renown, men of fame - not evil. 

It was not that they themselves were evil, or the source of evil - except that they too along with everyone except Noah had become evil for what ever reason or another.

well, I think it's implied that they are evil, and that they led men astray before the flood, but we certainly could disagree about that.  I personally think it's pretty clear their descendants and followers are considered evil by God in the OT, but we could disagree about that.

Not the Nephlim but the hybrids were nicknamed "terrors". Likely that was not due to the charity work they did...

[Taffy]

wasnt Goliath [of the EARTH ]a ""GIANT" :happy3:  :icon_flower: