What were the Nephilim

[Molly]

Exactly, Nathan, because they were still messing with mankind after the flood, as the Gen 6 passage points out.  It will be as in the days of Noe, says Jesus--is this a reference to the Nephilim again coming against humanity at the end of the age?

They left their first estate, as they were given to be spiritual beings from the beginning, and left their habitation, the heavens. [Jude 1]

Doc, I think you would really enjoy Heiser's lectures online because if I recall correctly, you had some interest in aliens, and he is saying that what we call aliens are really these beings.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

If this is dealing with blood lines, pure and impure, how could giants return again if God had already wiped out Cain's legacy?

He didn't wipe out Cain's legacy, both Seth and Cain's line are now one in Noah.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

Exactly, Nathan, because they were still messing with mankind after the flood, as the Gen 6 passage points out.  It will be as in the days of Noe, says Jesus--is this a reference to the Nephilim again coming against humanity at the end of the age?

Those who called upon the Lord, called sons of God, did fall away. Israel was cut off due to their unbelief (which Jesus was talking about), and today so to are Christians who use the Name of the Lord for self-gain demonstrating another end of the age. Each considered sons of God based on a proclamation and both falling away just as easily.

This is a continuous cycle, and we have gone through many ages which signified the end of an age. We are close to another end of an age and beginning of a new one.

God still remains God of the ages throughout them all, for ever and ever.

[Molly]

well, they didn't really fall away because the generations of Adam led directly to the birth of Jesus.

God was able to keep a group protected and set apart through the ages-his remnant.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

Doc, I think you would really enjoy Heiser's lectures online because if I recall correctly, you had some interest in aliens, and he is saying that what we call aliens are really these beings.

Interested and wouldn't be surprised if they exist; however, they would still be of this physical universe and made up from dust just as we are. They also would not be considered sons of God, unless they too called upon His Name and followed His Spirit.

Thank-you,

Dr. Anthony Carnasis
www.studentoftheword.com

[micah7:9]

Im listening Doc. :grin:

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

well, they didn't really fall away because the generations of Adam led directly to the birth of Jesus.

God was able to keep a group protected and set apart through the ages-his remnant.

Hello Molly,

Jesus explains this:

John 3:8
" The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

It is of my opinion, the danger is to think that God's spirit belongs to the will of men, a will of flesh or a bloodline.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Thank-you

[Molly]

Doc, I think you would really enjoy Heiser's lectures online because if I recall correctly, you had some interest in aliens, and he is saying that what we call aliens are really these beings.

Interested and wouldn't be surprised if they exist; however, they would still be of this physical universe and made up from dust just as we are. They also would not be considered sons of God, unless they too called upon His Name and followed His Spirit.

Thank-you,

Dr. Anthony Carnasis
www.studentoftheword.com

They were originally created as sons of God.  We see them shouting for joy in Job 38 when God creates the world.  They were there.  I believe they are the elohiym of the OT.  But, God tells them because of their wickedness, they will die like men.



1God has taken his place in the divine council;
  in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2"How long will you judge unjustly
   and show partiality to the wicked?
                         Selah


....
6 I said, "You are gods,
   sons of the Most High, all of you;
7nevertheless, like men you shall die,
   and fall like any prince."

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
   for you shall inherit all the nations!

--Psa 82 [English Standard Version]

[Molly]

well, they didn't really fall away because the generations of Adam led directly to the birth of Jesus.

God was able to keep a group protected and set apart through the ages-his remnant.

Hello Molly,

Jesus explains this:

John 3:8
" The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

It is of my opinion, the danger is to think that God's spirit belongs to the will of men, a will of flesh or a bloodline.

John 1:12-13
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Thank-you

I think it's important though to stay reminded that very few could be born of spirit until Christ sent the HS upon the church at the first Pentecost.

I believe King David and other OT saints were born of spirit.  I also believe that God set apart his bloodline to Christ in a supernatural way, as we see it passing through the second son and the second wife, etc.  There are also Gentiles pulled in to the bloodline.  God is making a point.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

Without going into a long discussion on the definition of God used in that passage, he was speaking of men.

John 10:33-36
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?

"If He called them God, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

As I said, this is only my belief and my opinion and the only reason I added it, was as a contrast to what was being presented prior in this discussion.

Thank-you,

Dr. Anthony Carnasis
www.studentoftheword.com

[Molly]

Yes, but I think in that passage Jesus is mocking them.  They most surely considered themselves gods, as many do to this day.

And, they knew he was mocking them because they tried to arrest him in the next passage but he escaped out of their hand.[John 10:39]

What threat is it to men to tell them they will die like men in Psalm 82?  That Psalm is not talking about men, imo.

[Nathan]

If this is dealing with blood lines, pure and impure, how could giants return again if God had already wiped out Cain's legacy?

He didn't wipe out Cain's legacy, both Seth and Cain's line are now one in Noah.

And "how" could both Seth and Cain be in Noah?  Obviously he was not born of both of them . . . none of this is making any sense to me at all.

[WhiteWings]

If this is dealing with blood lines, pure and impure, how could giants return again if God had already wiped out Cain's legacy?

He didn't wipe out Cain's legacy, both Seth and Cain's line are now one in Noah.

And "how" could both Seth and Cain be in Noah?  Obviously he was not born of both of them . . . none of this is making any sense to me at all.

Mother and father can merge two bloodlines that trace back to Set and Cain.

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

Nathan,

The same reason why King of France married the daughter of the King of Brittany unified the blood line not destroys them.

We also need to understand the role of the Matriarch and Patriarch blood lines in Hebrew Genealogy and their significance.

I am not going to go into it any further, as I do not believe any more would be productive.

Thank-you for the discussion.

[WhiteWings]

Exactly, Nathan, because they were still messing with mankind after the flood, as the Gen 6 passage points out.  It will be as in the days of Noe, says Jesus--is this a reference to the Nephilim again coming against humanity at the end of the age?

They left their first estate, as they were given to be spiritual beings from the beginning, and left their habitation, the heavens. [Jude 1]

To use 'estate' as proof for anything you first have to prove what that estate was...

Doc, I think you would really enjoy Heiser's lectures online because if I recall correctly, you had some interest in aliens, and he is saying that what we call aliens are really these beings.

Aliens are spiritual beings?

[Molly]

To use 'estate' as proof for anything you first have to prove what that estate was...

6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

--Jude 1



that References this scripture

2Peter 2:4
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [Tarturus, the pit] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;


I assume that would have happened at the time of the flood--but that's just an assumption, or an educated guess, especially since the next verse talks about Noah.

Aliens are spiritual beings?

No, what we call aliens, as in 'alien abductions,' or 'alien visitations' are really these [demonic] spiritual beings.

[thinktank]

If this is dealing with blood lines, pure and impure, how could giants return again if God had already wiped out Cain's legacy?

He didn't wipe out Cain's legacy, both Seth and Cain's line are now one in Noah.

And "how" could both Seth and Cain be in Noah?  Obviously he was not born of both of them . . . none of this is making any sense to me at all.

I am like you I am undecided on this matter. I have written posts that are for the idea of angels mating with human and also written posts which dwelved more in the scientific reasoning pertaining to the info that the Doctor has spoken about here.

But I'd like to add what the Dr is saying is that Noah or his wife is the descendant of Cain and Adam. That somewhere in Noah's familly tree it stretches back to Cains familly (the daughters of men), thus someone in his familly tree would have mutant giant genes. Noah (or His wife?) would carry these genes, thus passing them on to future generations, which through selective patterns and correct conditions, would end up in people such as Goliath.

There are many possibilities that I don't want to get into here, i.e the exact starting point of these mutant genes e.g The daughters that mated with Adams line or would it be the giants themselves passing on their genes, even more contrevaersial is the idea that scientists or pimps in that era, would extract the dna genes of the giants or breed them etc to produce warriors, but generally that is the overview of the situation.

[WhiteWings]

I assume that would have happened at the time of the flood--but that's just an assumption, or an educated guess, especially since the next verse talks about Noah.

They appear after the flood too. That gives us several options:
a] Flood was the great day (I think not) and the Nephlim were released again.
b] They escaped. (God failed)
c] Not all were locked up yet.
d] New Nephlim arrived/fell.

Nephlim don't breath because every breathing thing perished during the flood. Or just local.

2Peter 2:4
I find the word "if" very confusing. Doesn't the verse say God did NOT lock them up because He spared them?
(yeah I know the next verse... but still....)

[thinktank]

Just to clarify are :

1 The nephilim the giant offspring of human/Godly human

2. The angels who committed acts of disobedience, that God decided to lock them up and/or destroy them via flood.
(This part is a challenge as to whether Jude and Peter are refering to the actual disobedient angels, or the Giant beastly humanoids.)

3. Giant offspring of Human and angelic disobedience

[DrAnthonyCarnasis]

Hello Thinktank,

Let us say point 2, and 3 is your belief.

Do you believe those angels were ever part of the Kingdom of God?

[Molly]

2Peter 2:4
I find the word "if" very confusing. Doesn't the verse say God did NOT lock them up because He spared them?
(yeah I know the next verse... but still....)

It says God didn't spare the fallen angels[sons of God]. He locked them up.

And, they will remain locked up until the day of judgment.

d] New Nephlim arrived/fell.

I think--the nephilim are the offspring of angel and man.  The nephilim did perish in the flood [but their spirits become demons?]  The angels were locked up.

More angels fell after the flood creating more nephilim who were all those giants Joshua fought, for instance.  This activity will increase at the end of the age-[it will be like in the days of Noah].

One thing about Cain--Cain is out there building cities and presumably developing technology, whereas the Seth line remains the nomadic shepherd/kings.  Enoch tells us that all knowledge given to man comes from these fallen ones, which would explain why God forbids Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge.  You can see how even today, no matter the technology--they can always figure out how to kill people with it--and that tends to be their favorite use for technology.  If they can use it for good or evil, they pick evil every time.

[Lefein]

I honestly don't see what physical "blood lines" should have to do with any of it.

It sounds to me like a glance at racism to state that the only reason the "Nephilim" are "Nephilim" is because Sethites mated with Cainites.  That would be akin to saying; "The only reason those wicked sinners came about was because those beautiful Koreans mated with those filthy Indonesians.  After all, that's what you get when you let a primitive islander become party to the wealth of South Korea's blessed status."

(no offense to Koreans or Indonesians, this was purely example of which I took two random Asian people groups and put them into the sentence - no racism beyond the metaphoric pointing out of racism in the presented theory which I am addressing displeasure with was implied)

Something doesn't seem right with the "Sethites took the Cainites" theory...For one thing, why not just be plain and call them the Children of Seth and the Children of Cain?

Sons of God and the Children of Men, that's not a usual expression for people who are both literally Children of the Fallen Adam and Eve.

[WhiteWings]

One thing about Cain--Cain is out there building cities and presumably developing technology, whereas the Seth line remains the nomadic shepherd/kings.  Enoch tells us that all knowledge given to man comes from these fallen ones, which would explain why God forbids Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge.  You can see how even today, no matter the technology--they can always figure out how to kill people with it--and that tends to be their favorite use for technology.  If they can use it for good or evil, they pick evil every time.

In that case the first estate also simply can mean simple life without high tech. Earlier I wanted to post something similar but it's a problematic view. For example the Temples were high tech structures. A nomadic God would have prefered living in the tent.

[Molly]

One thing about Cain--Cain is out there building cities and presumably developing technology, whereas the Seth line remains the nomadic shepherd/kings.  Enoch tells us that all knowledge given to man comes from these fallen ones, which would explain why God forbids Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge.  You can see how even today, no matter the technology--they can always figure out how to kill people with it--and that tends to be their favorite use for technology.  If they can use it for good or evil, they pick evil every time.

In that case the first estate also simply can mean simple life without high tech. Earlier I wanted to post something similar but it's a problematic view. For example the Temples were high tech structures. A nomadic God would have prefered living in the tent.

He didn't really want a temple, did he?  Wasn't that [first David then] Solomon's idea, not his?

The shepherd kings knew they were sojourners, waiting for a city built by God.

But, the earth is his footstool and his place is with men, wherever they are.

3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
--Rev 21

[WhiteWings]

Another theory. Neplim are not human or angel. They are another creation.

Nephlim being angels was teh common understanding at Jesus' time.
If the Sons of God were angels then what was meant by Jesus' statement in Matthew 22:30; Mark
12:25; and Luke 20:34–36 which seemed to say that angels do not marry? We shall discuss these
verses also. There is a modern theory that the Sons of God were aliens from space who landed,
married women, and genetically manipulated their offspring to be slaves, the giants. There was a
rebellion among the aliens, war broke out, and Noah was saved. This idea has no biblical merit.
.........
Note that the "Sons of God" are very different than angels, and are quite capable of having sexual relations with humans that will produce multi-generational offspring, because the two species are precisely the same in anatomical and somatical constitution. Angels, however, are different in their lack of ability to produce offspring, though angels look very much like humans (both males and females). By the way, "wings" on angels are metaphorical.


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