Things you have to believe if you believe in ET:

[jimbo99]

- God is infinitely more hateful and wrathful than He is loving
- Every one of us deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond our control (having a sinful nature)
- Since God knows everything, including the eternal destiny of every human being, at least 85% of humanity was created for the express purpose of spending eternity as a human Duraflame
- Wrongdoing against someone else warrants a punishment far far worse than the crime if the offended party is "greater" than you (so by that logic, disobeying your parents is grounds for being tortured for the rest of your life).  I never saw the logic in this, since nothing we do is capable of actually harming God.
- Evil is far more powerful than good, since original sin affected everyone, but Jesus' sacrifice only affects those who accept it the correct way
- Perpetual torture for no purpose other than to vent anger and exhibit raw power is a just, holy, righteous, and Godly practice
- God does not follow His own rules (love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.)
- God is either all-powerful but not all-loving (Calvinism) or vice versa (Armanianism), but cannot be both (Universalism)
- "Free will" to choose God or not is ultimately a cosmic scale version of "your money or your life" (aka "your worship or your soul")
- Our will is more powerful than God's

Did I miss anything?

[WhiteWings]

Did I miss anything?

- God needs torture to be glorified.
- Heaven means nothing if nobody is in hell.
- Because God loves us He sents us to hell because we chose it.
- An infinite God requires infinite punishing.
- Hell is justice.
- Without hell Jesus died for nothing.
-



^YLTRom 8
38 for I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor messengers, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
39 nor things about to be, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of god, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[legoman]

Let me give you the typical answers (italics):

- God is infinitely more hateful and wrathful than He is loving
God is infinitely loving as well, but all of His attributes must be displayed; Holiness cannot abide with sin

- Every one of us deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond our control (having a sinful nature)
of course we all deserve eternal torture

- Since God knows everything, including the eternal destiny of every human being, at least 85% of humanity was created for the express purpose of spending eternity as a human Duraflame
Yes it is all for God's glory (calvinist) or God allows men to choose hell (arminian)

- Wrongdoing against someone else warrants a punishment far far worse than the crime if the offended party is "greater" than you (so by that logic, disobeying your parents is grounds for being tortured for the rest of your life)
exactly

- Evil is far more powerful than good, since original sin affected everyone, but Jesus' sacrifice only affects those who accept it the correct way
no, evil is destroyed, and by destroyed, I mean put on display for all eternity in hell

- Perpetual torture for no purpose other than to vent anger and exhibit raw power is a just, holy, righteous, and Godly practice
its all for God's glory (calvinist) God doesn't want anyone to go to hell but what option does He have (arminian)

- God does not follow His own rules (love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.)
He's God - He can do whatever He wants (calvinist) or He does follow his own rules; He really does love those in hell (arminian)

- God is either all-powerful but not all-loving (Calvinism) or vice versa (Armanianism), but cannot be both (Universalism)
arminians are heretics but they probably won't burn in hell with the universalists

- "Free will" to choose God or not is ultimately a cosmic scale version of "your money or your life" (aka "your worship or your soul")
there is no free will only self will (calvinist)/free will is the gift from God, without it we would all be robots (arminian)

- Our will is more powerful than God's
calvinist would say no, arminian would say God lets it be that way

Did I miss anything?

probably. LOL (I see WW added some).  Some of the answers are absurd if you think about it, but this is what people believe.

[legoman]

- Every one of us deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond our control (having a sinful nature)
of course we all deserve eternal torture

This is probably the most absurd one for me, and I've actually heard people say this.

Every single one of us deserves to be tortured forever for being born/made exactly the way God made us.

This would typically be a more calvinist viewpoint.

Edit: actually scratch that.  I don't think many Calvinists exactly believe that, but they are being inconsistent if they don't reach that conclusion.

[WhiteWings]

I remember quotes like: "I see a baby burning in a oven. Yes people that is goooooooood. Looooove!!!!"
Or: "When I see my un/wrong believing mother being dragged to the flames to be tortured eternally I won't lift a finger. I will smile seeing her getting the justice she deserves!!!!"

[jimbo99]

Almost forgot:

- The only fitting punishment for offending an infinitely good being is for said being to inflict infinite evil on you

[Lefein]

Evil exists forever despite the best efforts of Good, or else because Good decided to maintain it forever.

[legoman]

- Every one of us deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond our control (having a sinful nature)
of course we all deserve eternal torture

This is probably the most absurd one for me, and I've actually heard people say this.

Every single one of us deserves to be tortured forever for being born/made exactly the way God made us.

This would typically be a more calvinist viewpoint.

Edit: actually scratch that.  I don't think many Calvinists exactly believe that, but they are being inconsistent if they don't reach that conclusion.

I wrote this in a rush and just wanted to correct what I said to be fair.

What I have heard Calvinists say is:
We all deserve to burn in hell because we are all sinners.
And:
We are all born sinners.

Since we have no choice about being born or being born a sinner, we can conclude that we all deserve to burn in hell simply for being born.  And in fact many Calvinists believe God ordains this to happen for His good purposes. 

[Aleax]

Acts 3:21 tells us God has promised through all His holy prophets that He will restore some things.

Furthermore, both Old Testament and New Testament writers and prophets tell us:

that some earth's families will be blessed through Christ, Abraham's "Seed" (Gen. 12:3, Acts 3:23, Rom. 4:13). Furthermore, according to Galatians 3:8, this promised blessing means that SOME earth's families will be turned from their sins; justified and set right with God;

that success or failure at keeping God's law has a bearing on whether or not this promised blessing will finally be bestowed, for the law can cancel this covenant (Gal. 3:17-21);

that some earth's families, therefore, will remember the Lord, turn to Him and worship Him (Ps. 22:27-28);

that some flesh will bless His name forever and sing His praise (Ps. 145:21; 66:3-4, Rev. 5:13);

that His tender mercies are over some His works, and some His works shall praise Him (Ps. 145:9-10);

that God's anger is everlasting but His mercy is temporary (Ps. 103:8-10; 136, Micah 7:18);

that some of the mankind shall be blessed in Christ (Ps. 72:17);

that some knees will bow and some tongues will confess and give thanks to the Lord. Furthermore, they will swear to Him and oath of allegiance and give thanks that in Him they have righteousness and strength. And this will bring glory to our loving Father. (Isa. 45:21-24, NKJV, also see the Amplified Version; Phil. 2:9-11);3

that our Tender Father of all Compassion is pleased or glorified with mere lip service. (Matt. 15:8, 2 Cor. 1:3-4);

that one can confess Jesus as Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3);

that God's will and purpose must not come to pass and one can restrain Him. For He works SOME things according to His will (Ps. 33:10-11, Prov. 19:21; 21:1, Ecc. 3:1,17, Dan. 4:34-35, Eph. 1:11);

that His will and good pleasure and purpose is to unite SOME creation in Christ (Eph. 1:10; 2:9-10);

that His Word will return void and not accomplish His desire, pleasure and purpose (Isa. 45:23; 46:11; 55:11);

that through His death on the cross, Christ will draw some mankind to Himself. For Gabriel announced that Christ our Savior shall be glad tidings of great joy to some people (John 12:32-33, Luke 2:10);

that BECAUSE God created some things for His pleasure, He is worthy of some power, honor and praise (Rev. 4:11);

that for this reason Christ descended into Hades and proclaimed the gospel to the dead, specifically Noah's disobedient generation—so they could be judged in order that they might burn alive by God's Spirit (1 Pet. 3:19; 4:6);

that Christ, our Good Shepherd, who preached the gospel to Noah's generation, is the same yesterday, today, but not forever. Thus, we can rest assured that He won't fulfill the redemptive plans of God's heart for all generations (Ps. 33:11, Heb. 13:8);

that God has given Christ some things (Matt. 11:27; 28:18, Luke 10:22, John 3:35; 13:3; 17:2, Eph. 1:22, Heb. 1:2; 2:7-8, 1 Pet. 3:22);

that Christ won't accomplish His Father's will, but will lose most of all He's been given (John 6:37,39; 17:2, Heb. 10:7,9);

that the Lord has spoken it and He will accomplish it, that He has purposed it and will also perform it (Isa. 46:11); that in the last days God will pour out His Spirit on some mankind, and whoever calls on the Lord's name will maybe be restored and saved. And as has been shown, all will not call on the Lord's name, neither will all swear allegiance to Him and offer Him thanks (Joel 2:28-32, Acts 2:16-38);

that ALL—whether righteous or unrighteous—will be resurrected. But, according to Paul, this provides no good reason to hope in God (Acts 24:15-16);

that even if Adam's trespass brought condemnation on all people—Christ's act of righteousness was justification that brings life to some people. For as through Adam's disobedience "the many" were made sinners—through Christ's obedience "the few" will be made righteous (Romans 5:18-19);

that therefore where sin abounded, grace abounded much less! (Romans 5:20);

that some of the whole family in heaven and earth is named after our Father. For some of us are His offspring. Thus He is above all, through all, but only in some (Amos 9:12, Acts 17:28, Eph. 3:14-15; 4:6);

that Christ has ascended to fill some things (Eph. 4:10);

that God's judgment triumphs over mercy. For it is His tender judgment that governs His mercy (Ps. 62:12, Jam. 2:13);

that the kingdoms of this world won't become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Messiah (Dan. 7:14,27, Rev. 11:15);

that the Lord has made bare His holy arm (strength!) and some shall see His Salvation (Isa. 52:10);

that righteousness and praise shall not spring forth before all nations, and everlasting joy shall not come to them (See all of Isaiah 61);

that He Who is Sovereign Holy Love will not have mercy on those who were not His people. He will say to them, "You are not My people!" And they shall say, "You are not my God!" (Hosea 2:23);

that Sovereign Holy Love will raise from death those who were not His people, but only to burn them alive forever. He will thus, in a way, be the Plague and Destruction of death—and Hades (Hos. 13:13-14);

that Paul therefore could ironically shout, "O death, where is your sting? O Hades where is your victory?" (1 Cor. 15:54-55);

I could go on and on, but I don't have ALL day.  :laughing7:

The original list appears in Charles Slagle's Absolute Assurance book.

[Aleax]

There's even more... from the same book.

If most people will be lost forever because Christ does not finally lead ALL to repentance:

then eternity will prove that satan did a better job at corrupting creation than Christ did in redeeming it.

then eternity will demonstrate that satan's power to seduce human wills is stronger than God's power to influence them toward good.

then eternity will show that God devised His own everlasting defeat when He planned His creation.

then eternity will reveal that God's love is no different from the "love" of corrupted men, because it places value on people based on their performance. How so? All who have failed to hear of Christ and respond to Him within a certain time limit are discarded!

then eternity will demonstrate that Christ's atonement for all mankind (in many cases) is an everlasting failure.

then eternity will show that God planned that good and evil co-exist forever, side by side, in His universe as an eternal testimony of His holy (?) and loving (?) nature.

then eternity will prove that our Loving Creator has knowingly brought many people into being whose suffering shall have no end—that He has done a thing to His own offspring that no normal earthly father would dream of doing.

then eternity will show that God—Who receives no pleasure in the death of the wicked—has failed to fulfill His promise that He will perform all His good pleasure to unite all creation in Christ (either because He will not or He cannot do so).

then eternity will prove that God's "desire" that all be saved either is not a deep and sincere desire—or else—it is an irrational desire that He knows to be vain and futile. Hence, Perfect Love and Wisdom desires what He knows will never happen—not ever! This means that God's desire is rooted in unreality and is merely sentimental and wishful thinking.

then eternity will show that God's purpose (to unite all in Christ) will never be accomplished. Therefore He lied when He assured us, "I have spoken it; I will bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it" (Isa. 46:11, Eph. 1.9-10).

then eternity will show that Christ will not, in fact, inherit ALL things. So all Scriptures that prophesy along these lines were only nice-sounding words—gross and misleading "inflated advertising." For Christ shall have drawn only some, not all, people to Himself. For the gentiles will not hope in Him. Only some gentiles will hope in Him.
then eternity will show that God loves pain. Otherwise He would have retained His original state of pleasure by never spawning creation.

then eternity will show that God's covenant with Abraham that in Christ all earth's families will be BLESSED is by no means a sure anchor for the soul. For only mild and temporal and mostly imperceptible blessing was intended by this covenant for earth's families. Such "blessing" will hardly be of comfort when remembered by vast multitudes agonizing forever whose lives on earth were characterized by disease, oppression, ignorance, squalor and hard labor.

then eternity will show that Loving-Kindness, Himself, has created billions of people whom He foreknew would never hear Christ proclaimed during their earthly lives and therefore would suffer forever.

then eternity will prove that God created many things for His everlasting displeasure and therefore is not worthy of all power, honor and praise—contrary to Revelation 4:11 and Isaiah 46:10.

then eternity will prove that, for many, God's calling them into being was a curse of such magnitude that its horror defies description.

then eternity will prove that Christ will be "satisfied" that God's pleasure (forever!) shall only partially "prosper" in His hand. How so? Only the firstfruits of His world harvest of human souls will ever become His inheritance.

then eternity will show that Scriptures calling the church "the firstborn" and a "kind of firstfruits" were meaningless.

then eternity will demonstrate that Christ is not the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. It will reveal Him as the Lamb of God who tried to take away the world's sin and failed.

then eternity will prove that abortionists are far more merciful than "God" or "Christians" who would preserve infants alive so as teenagers and adults most of them would have to endure endless torment.

then eternity will demonstrate that God's "tender mercies" are over only some (not all) of His works, for only some will bless His name forever and ever. Many others will agonize for all eternity.

then eternity will demonstrate that Christians who proclaimed so many messages about "resting in God's love and grace" were grossly imbalanced in their emphasis (to put it as kindly as possible).

then eternity will demonstrate that God's will shall never (fully) be done on earth as it is in Heaven. For when earth yields up its dead from their graves, most who are resurrected will live outside of God's will forever and ever. Therefore, Christ taught us to pray a prayer He knew would NEVER—not ever—be answered.

then eternity will prove that God will not be the plague and destruction of death and Hades. For the sting of death in its most hideous form—the second death—shall endure forever and ever. Thus, Paul was grossly deceived to have shouted, "O death, where is your sting; O Hades, where is your victory?" For death shall prove itself to be victorious—in may cases—for all eternity. The second death, the lake of fire, will sabotage God's fulfilling all His good pleasure forever and ever.

then eternity will prove that only some things shall be made new, not all. Moreover death, sorrow, tears and pain, contrary to Scripture, will endure forever as testimony of satan's victory over Calvary.

then eternity will demonstrate that God has called Himself the "Savior of all men," fully knowing He would never save but only a few. Thus He only wanted to sound nice when He referred to Himself as "the Savior of ALL men."

then eternity will prove that God is weaker than evil. Or else, eternity will show that He chose to go into everlasting collusion with evil when He created all things so that evil forever could exert greater power than His over the wills of many people.

then eternity will demonstrate that Christ failed to accomplish His purpose to save the world—that which was lost—and to destroy the devil's works. For He shall have saved only some of the world, and some of that which was lost, and destroyed only some of satan's works.

then eternity will reveal that love is neither committed nor unfailing—nor is it by any means unconditional.

then eternity will show that Holy Love has foreseen and therefore fore-planned for everlasting disaster for much of His own creation.

then eternity will demonstrate that God is kinder to animals than He is to human beings. For He has allowed death to end any suffering that beasts endure in their earthly lifetime. Yet He has ordained endless torment for human beings, created in His image.

then eternity will either demonstrate that—bottomline—human beings (contrary to Scripture) are in fact their own saviors through the strength of their own ingenuity and will-power. Or else, eternity will show that God has chosen to save some and brought others into existence for the purpose of endless suffering.

then eternity will show that "Love" gives up on His own offspring forever—in advance of His having created them. For He has foreknown all of His works from eternity past and fulfills all His plans based on His foreknowledge.

then eternity will reveal God as the author of endless pain, error, and evil—since His own Word states that He Himself willed His creation's fall (Romans 8:20-21).

then eternity will demonstrate that Christ, contrary to Scripture, never intended to draw all mankind to Himself—or else He promised to do so but was unable to fulfill His promise. Therefore John 12:32 is meaningless at best and a lie at worst.

[Miriam]

Interesting and though-provoking thread. I've added "Absolute Assurance" to my favourites so that I can revisit it. Every time I come here my reading list gets longer.  :winkgrin:

then eternity will prove that only some things shall be made new, not all. that He Himself willed His creation's fall (Romans 8:20-21).

Someone here has - or used to have - in their signature "Behold, I make a few things new." Kind of sums it up.  :thumbsup:

[Aleax]

It was me. Think I could put it back again...  :laughing7:

[Miriam]

Nice to see it back.  :winkgrin:

[bushy]

You can't use logic, just stand by faith on what the bible says.

[micah7:9]

Why is it that those who have heard the Word (the Good News) and believe in Jesus Christ the Saviour of the World, continue to misunderstand The Creator?
When will the believer accept and walk with the knowledge that...... 
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
If one cannot accept and understand that the plan and purpose of God is for the good of His children and that all of what we call obstacles are only the road to freedom.
Joh 8:36  if then the son may make you free, in reality ye shall be free.

[Aleax]

You can't use logic, just stand by faith on what the bible says.

I agree. That's why I copy-pasted a bunch of "assurance verses" collected by Slagle and showed how they must be tweaked if one believes in ET.

[bushy]

You can't use logic, just stand by faith on what the bible says.

I agree. That's why I copy-pasted a bunch of "assurance verses" collected by Slagle and showed how they must be tweaked if one believes in ET.

Actually I wasn't clear what I meant above. It is as if we have to leave our brains out of it and sometimes that's true of we don't understand a truth. But I'm talking about the contortions we have to go through to explain forever torture. Charles Slagle is the first one who I read and learned about UR from. I love his writing and how he makes it so totally illogical to believe that our Father is going to torture most of his children. Logic had a lot to do with me coming to understand UR and then I moved on from there to understand scripture more and more.

- Every one of us deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond our control (having a sinful nature)
of course we all deserve eternal torture

This is an example of the foolishness we're supposed to believe because the bible says so. Of course it doesn't say anything like that. But I am having to argue about this kind of stuff even with my beloved family who can't see it. And believe me I am in pain over it. I don't know a single other person who believes the UR message, except on the internet for which I am very thankful. If any of you out there believe in prayer I could use some. Thanks.

[WhiteWings]

But I'm talking about the contortions we have to go through to explain forever torture. Charles Slagle is the first one who I read and learned about UR from. I love his writing and how he makes it so totally illogical to believe that our Father is going to torture most of his children. Logic had a lot to do with me coming to understand UR and then I moved on from there to understand scripture more and more.

Occam's razor. The simple explnation is usually the right explanation... :thumbsup:

[bushy]

 My last paragraph above isn't supposed to be in the quote box by Legoman. I hope I can figure out how to do this properly before long. :icon_jokercolor:

[WhiteWings]

Just press the edit button in that post and move your paragraph after: [/ quote]

[nes]

All untrue that you have to believe this if ET.

- God is infinitely more hateful and wrathful than He is loving

God doesn't send people to hades because he is hateful, he does it because those people did not follow the law.  God shows that he merciful for delaying judgement day for the unbelieving dead.

- Every one of us deserves eternal torture for something that is beyond our control (having a sinful nature)

And each one of us deserves eternal love for something beyond our control?  (sinful nature). 

- Since God knows everything, including the eternal destiny of every human being, at least 85% of humanity was created for the express purpose of spending eternity as a human Duraflame

So since god knew that all of the other people during Noah's time would be swept away, he shouldn't have created them?  Or what about satan?  Should god have created 1/3rd of the angels that are now fallen?  Let's say god didn't create those 1/3rd angels that were fallen, now you have a different set of angels going to the lake of fire because the environment changed.

- Wrongdoing against someone else warrants a punishment far far worse than the crime if the offended party is "greater" than you (so by that logic, disobeying your parents is grounds for being tortured for the rest of your life).  I never saw the logic in this, since nothing we do is capable of actually harming God.

The wrong doing is not against anyone here, it is against god who is infinitely powerful.  The wages of sin is death, not eternal punishment.  It just happens to be that once you die again, all hope is lost so you'll stay where you are.  You'll never call out for the lord because you won't be able to understand or know him.  Let's say you stayed in a screaming void being beaten with lashes 24/7 in hades for 500 years, would you still remember your life on earth?  I bet not.  The lake of fire is the 2nd death.  I don't even remember much of my life 10 years ago.

- Evil is far more powerful than good, since original sin affected everyone, but Jesus' sacrifice only affects those who accept it the correct way

So people shouldn't have a choice in whether or not to do good or evil?  You prefer control which is evil?

- Perpetual torture for no purpose other than to vent anger and exhibit raw power is a just, holy, righteous, and Godly practice

The torture is not anger, it's god's power.  It's also watered down for everyone individually so it's just enough to be handle it without being cruel.

- God does not follow His own rules (love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.)

God wants everyone to go to heaven and loves sinners on earth.  However just because he loves somebody doesn't mean that the law is done away with.  The law always takes priority above his love for individuals because breaking the law is evil.

- God is either all-powerful but not all-loving (Calvinism) or vice versa (Armanianism), but cannot be both (Universalism)

God is all powerful and all loving, he loves people so much that he'll respect their decision to reject him and prefer hell instead of heaven.

- "Free will" to choose God or not is ultimately a cosmic scale version of "your money or your life" (aka "your worship or your soul")
- Our will is more powerful than God's

God doesn't want to break the law.

[jabcat]

nes said "[God sends people to hell] because those people did not follow the law"

we're not under the OT law.  we're not saved by works.  we're saved by God's grace through His Son Jesus Christ, with the faith God gives us to believe on Him for salvation.  Then His law is written on our hearts, having been fulfilled by Jesus.  So when one is spiritually reborn from above, the desire to please the Father is placed in us, the Holy Spirit seals us, convicts us, keeps drawing us back to the path of obedience in following the Savior.  It's Christ's works in us.   Please begin there.

[Taffy]

God doesn't send people to hades because he is hateful, he does it because those people did not follow the law.

one can NOT  send someone to a place they are already at NES- ALL men entered HADES[ the place of the grave= death]being born with the nature of our parents adam\eve-  the trouble being folk dont realise they are already THERE--- the law was given to show what sin and death was[ carnal mind] a tutor to the LIFE who is christ- THOSE who resist HIM are given to their MIND being their reward of nakedness= sin--

The Lake of fire however is something quite different :icon_flower:

[nes]

nes said "[God sends people to hell] because those people did not follow the law"

we're not under the OT law.  we're not saved by works.  we're saved by God's grace through His Son Jesus Christ, with the faith God gives us to believe on Him for salvation.
Then His law is written on our hearts, having been fulfilled by Jesus.  So when one is spiritually reborn from above, the desire to please the Father is placed in us, the Holy Spirit seals us, convicts us, keeps drawing us back to the path of obedience in following the Savior.  It's Christ's works in us.   Please begin there.

I was talking about god sending [those unbelievers] to hades, not believers.  If we aren't saved by works, then the OT law hasn't changed at all.  Nobody was saved by works in the OT law, it was all faith.  And by saved, I mean sent to the paradise side of hades to await jesus's resurrection to save those in paradise.

1 Corinthians 10:16-17
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

2 Corinthians 5:5-6
5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

So we don't receive what is to come yet...  Maybe after we die?  Being given the holy spirit as a deposit means you haven't been saved yet, it's just that the holy spirit guarantees it as long as you believe.

6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

Romans 8:11
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

John.16:7
Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.

The helper is the holy spirit. 

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you aión,  (aion in this case probably means forever lol)

Here's what I'm thinking, since we become a new creature, get a new heart, new spirit, and being "born again", the being saved part is basically due to becoming a new person entirely.  Romans 8:11 says mortal bodies, so I'm confused on whether or not life is given to mortal bodies from rom 8:11 or from the holy spirit as a deposit guaranteeing eternal life?

[Molly]

Romans 8:11 says mortal bodies, so I'm confused on whether or not life is given to mortal bodies from rom 8:11 or from the holy spirit as a deposit guaranteeing eternal life?

Our mortal bodies are quickened by the Spirit, that is, brought to life.  That is, the carnal mind is eradicated  because there is no longer a carnal mortal body.  That is, we are given the flesh that was prepared for Christ.  That is, we are a new creation--the second Adam.


11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

--Rom 8