More UR Support

[Lefein]

I posted this elsewhere on another forum, but I wanted to share it here too.

Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

(Isa 6:6-7)

Look my friends :D  Sin being purged by fire.

[Molly]

Yes.  "Live coal"  traces back through a word that means lightning or thunderbolt which traces to this word--

H8313
שׂרף
śâraph
saw-raf'
A primitive root; to be (causatively set) on fire: - (cause to, make a) burn ([-ing], up), kindle, X utterly.


This incident happens when the prophet finds himself standing in the Divine Council.  The live coal purifies him so that he can speak the words of God to the people as God's prophet.


Isaiah 6
1In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

-

[Nathan]

Seraph?  Hey Molly, is that connected to a seraphim??

[WhiteWings]

Seraph?  Hey Molly, is that connected to a seraphim??

Yes.

śârâph
BDB Definition:
1) serpent, fiery serpent
1a) poisonous serpent (fiery from burning effect of poison)
2) seraph, seraphim
2a) majestic beings with 6 wings, human hands or voices in attendance upon God

Root word:
śâraph
BDB Definition:
1) to burn
1a) (Qal) to burn
1b) (Niphal) to be burned
1c) (Piel) burner, burning (participle)
1d) (Pual) to be burnt up, be burned


The weird thing is if I keep following the TWOT numbers (no idea what they are) I always end at H1 = God  :dontknow:

[Aleax]

Good discovery!  :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Amen!
<< Ezekiel 28 >>
New American Standard Bible

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14"You were the anointed cherub who covers,
         And I placed you there.
         You were on the holy mountain of God;
         You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15"You were blameless in your ways
         From the day you were created
         Until unrighteousness was found in you.

16"By the abundance of your trade
         You were internally filled with violence,
         And you sinned;
         Therefore I have cast you as profane
         From the mountain of God.
         And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
         From the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel echoes this theme in several places

Ez 13

       8Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "Because you have spoken falsehood and seen a lie, therefore behold, I am against you," declares the Lord GOD. 9"So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD

Ez 10
  1Then I looked, and behold, in the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim something like a sapphire stone, in appearance resembling a throne, appeared above them. 2And He spoke to the man clothed in linen and said, "Enter between the whirling wheels under the cherubim and fill your hands with coals of fire from between the cherubim and scatter them over the city." And he entered in my sight.


When we "leave our first estate" and become lifted up within ourselves...

Jas 3
13Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

There are many other such references through out the OT, combining the coals, the lightning, the councils of God, etc...., here are a couple more.

<< Zephaniah 1 >>
New American Standard Bible

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12"It will come about at that time
         That I will search Jerusalem with lamps,
         And I will punish the men
         Who are stagnant in spirit,
         Who say in their hearts,
         'The LORD will not do good or evil!'



Jer 23
18"But who has stood in the council of the LORD,
         That he should see and hear His word?
         Who has given heed to His word and listened?
19"Behold, the storm of the LORD has gone forth in wrath,
         Even a whirling tempest;
         It will swirl down on the head of the wicked.

20"The anger of the LORD will not turn back
         Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart;
         In the last days you will clearly understand it.

21"I did not send these prophets,
         But they ran.
         I did not speak to them,
         But they prophesied.

22"But if they had stood in My council,
         Then they would have announced My words to My people,       
And would have turned them back from their evil way
         And from the evil of their deeds.




Paul stood in the council of the Lord
<< 1 Timothy 5 >>
New American Standard Bible

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21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality

When we stay in the Spirit of Council, esteeming one another...
Ro 12
   1Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith

Eph 4

1Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

When believers become the tabenacle, one soul in one accord, Jesus is lifted up and draws all men unto Him. The lightning(living word, revelation) flashes from the coals(overcomers)

<< 1 Corinthians 14 >>
New American Standard Bible

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24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you

The world around us is in chaos, but the Spirit is hovering over the waters, through us the testimony of Jesus says "Let there be light!" and the darkness is divided, and the Day appears, and it is good.
<< Hebrews 4 >>
New American Standard Bible

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12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. 



Being baptized in the Holy Spirit and fire, the wheat is separated from the chaff. Our God is a consuming fire and when we draw near unto God He draws near unto us and the purging transforms us into vessels fit for the masters use. Nothing is hidden that will not be brought to light. His eyes are as flames of fire. All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. When we come togehter in the Spirit as one soul- we are the tabernacle and the lightning flashes from the coals, as habbakuk said, "Like rays from His right hand". The prohetic spirit in that lightning are the words that divide soul and spirit, that discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart. This is the key to evangelism, because the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy- "Come all who thirst! and the spirit and the Bride say Come!   But where the Spirit is grieved and quenched and resisted there is no fire, the words do not divide, no one cries out, "Truly God is in your midst!"...."Today, if you hear His voice.....:o) !

[Nathan]

Hmmm . . . in that Ezekiel passage, leaving your own estate . . .that's what happened to Adam . . .he left the garden . . .God didn't have to clothe them with skin until "after" they were driven out . . .until after they left their original estate.  Christ redeemed us back to that estate through the cross . . .even though our flesh is still very much engaged in "this" estate, because of Christ, we can live in this estate and walk in our original estate . . .flesh still fallen, but spirit has resurrected in us.

[WhiteWings]

What do you mean by that? Adam and Eve were no real humans until they got kicked out of the garden and got skins? Or do you mean simple animal skins?

[eaglesway]

In My Father's house their are many dwelling places/tabernacles/mansions/estates. I think Adam was clothed with skin when the "clay" became the house for the spirit of God and the soul of Adam. But in Christ we have entered a higher estate, "seated in the heavenly realms in Christ". Whatever skin becomes when "swallowed up" by spirit, many and diverse glories, as yet(according to Paul) unseen and unknown. But as John says, "We know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be liike Him because we will see Him as he is."  Now we see through a glass darkly, then we will know as we are known. Yet now some seek to preside over the "estates" of others, thereby leaving there own estate. As Paul says, "Let no man esteem himself more highly than he ought, for to EACH ONE is given a measure of faith". The preisthood of the believer expressed through Jesus, "Call no man Rabbi" for we have one teacher, Christ, and an "anointing" that teaches us all things.

[Nathan]

What do you mean by that? Adam and Eve were no real humans until they got kicked out of the garden and got skins? Or do you mean simple animal skins?

It doesn't say they were clothed with animal skins . . . we were taught that's what it says, but that's not what it actually is saying.  The theory is that God had to kill an animal and make them wear the skin . . . the first sacrifice . . .but again, there's a lot of presumption built into that.  God created them out of the BLESSED (before the earth was cursed) earth and then PLACED them in the garden . .ever wonder why either God didn't just make them out of the clay in the garden, or merely lead them into it, instruct to them where it was . . .none of that.  He "placed" them . . .he transported them from one place to another.  Taking that and coupling it with the verse that says God walked with Adam in the "cool" of the day . . .the word "cool" literally means "breathe or breath", which again, is the Hebrew word for SPIRIT . .. God walked with Adam in the SPIRIT . . .which was in the GARDEN. 

Think about it . . .no man has ever found the garden, no man has ever come across this mighty angel with a fiery sword . . .these things are not seen by natural eyes because the garden is not a natural realm . . it's where the gateway to both the realm (tree) of the spirit (life) and the realm of death (tree of knowledge) originated.  The moment Adam ate of the fruit (not Eve . . just when Adam did it) of knowledge, "they" were "driven" from the garden . . .because they chose to live by their OWN world of reasoning rather than remain in the innocense and infinity of the Spirit they could no longer live in the spirit . . .once they were driven out of the garden, the things handed down which "appear" to be judgments, to me, are only new instructions for them to adapt and survive in a foreign realm/land. . .in this realm, the woman will go through much pain in childbirth . . . labor (sweat) would be man's identity (of his "face) to make a living in this realm . . .the serpent . ..which was connected not to the garden of Eden . . .but to the tree of knowledge in the garden of Eden . . . for me, again . . .new agey or not . . .is the carnality that governs the realm of knowledge . . .the most subtile beast of all the animals of the field is carnality in us . . "man, at his best, is a beast." 

The only way a snake/serpent can advance is through it's unique ability to manipulate objects, to propel itself by the environment it lives in.  Man can step over objects, a snake has to "use" the objects to get from one place to another . . .our minds, the carnal part of us, is not the creative part, it's the destructive part.  It can't lead us into the ascended places, it can only manipulate thoughts and ideas already known to our minds . . .like dreaming, a dream is only gathering information our consciousness and subconsciousness has accumulated.  Aside from those times when God chooses to approach us in those dreams.

But to the question, I think that the bodies of clay that they originally had were created to last forever . . .but not created to live in a realm where the natural things were dominant.  But when they were driven out of the garden (spirit) into the outer darkness (flesh), God provided them/us with the flesh we have now to cover our nakedness, not out of fear or shame as they had done, but out of love and protection, which is his nature.  It's kinda like the pattern of the tabernacle in the holy of holies, (tree of life) holy place (garden) outer courts (tree of knowledge).

Adding another to the pattern is the river . . .one river . . .One God . . .splitting into 4 rivers . . .at the headwaters of the four rivers . . .I believe was where the two trees stood . . .tree of life lead into the heart of the Father, tree of knowledge lead into the natural realm of life.  4 is the number symbolizing things pertaining to the natural . . .4 seasons, 4 major directions, 4 elements that make up earth (fire, water, dirt, wind) etc.

Genesis is about the origin of man and his life on this earth.

If I were to believe it in the traditional way . . .don't you think there would have been a yearly ritual where people would have to wear a bloody animal skin around for a while as they repented for the fall of man???  As much as visual rituals were such a huge part of the Old covenant, don't you think that "that" would have been represented somewhere in all those laws?  But mysterioiusly, it's never mentioned again.