Everybody Callin' on Jesus

[Molly]

...it helps remind dark forces, not to mess with Gods people, because every time they do evil, God promises to recompense.

I agree with this.  It just seems to work out that way.

[jabcat]

I am a bit mindblown with the idea that he is not going to return physically but that his return will be (or is?) is us.

I still tend to believe it's both.

"you men of Galilee...this same Jesus will return just as you saw Him go away"...

I guess we'll "see", won't we?   :laughing7:

[Nathan]

He wasn't saying two thousand years from now I'll return as you see me go  . .he as telling them . .specifically, that as "they" saw him go, the state that they say him go (for me, that's resurrected state, not flesh and blood state) that "they" would personally see him again . . .returing "to them". . . .there is no literal indication that he's telling them he'll come back to them . . and then two thousand years later come back to us .. .  In fact, the whole last days mentality is based on assumptions and preconceived notions that what he's telling them is like a tongue and cheek "wink" in which everybody then supposedly knew it wasn't about "them" but it was about "us" . . .which is far fetched to say the least.

Or . . . . .
The fact that "we" don't think it happened the way "we" interpret it to be saying how it was going to happen, would then lead us to the conclusion that he "must" have meant it was going to happen at a later time . . .which "must" be yet in our future because in our eyes, it hasn't happened yet . . .but I disagree with both of those scenareos because both are based on natural reasoning rather than spiritual revelation.

The people (generally speaking) that embrace that "Just as you saw him go . .. " passage are also the same that bring out the "as it was in the days of Noah" verse . . . they blend the two together to say the same thing they're trying to prove . .. but if you take a look at what happened in the days of Noah .. .the godly weren't the ones removed . . .they were the onlyl ones that remained.  it was the ungodliness that was removed by the flood . . .Noah and his family were spared.   Jesus was all about personal, intimate relatonship on an individual basis.  He didn't come to the generation that he did to warn them about devastation that was coming, or redemption that was coming thousands of years later . . . his message was to them, for that day.  What keeps it alive is the spiritual truth that is in the seed of the message . . .not the literal application of it.

[WhiteWings]

He wasn't saying two thousand years from now I'll return as you see me go

Why speak in terms of "OR" instead of "AND"?

[Lefein]

I believe he'll come back personally (Second Coming idea) simply because so many of his children want him to.  God won't disappoint those who have waited for him, especially not with something so gloriously vapid as a fortune-cookie proverb type of return; "I have returned...as you, young padawan, The Force is strong with you!" --- me: Well, that's a bit of a bummer, I didn't want to see you through the veil of a thousand hypocrites we call the church, I wanted to see My God My King and Saviour face to face in the proverbial flesh.

If anything, he'll come back (in his due timing) personally, physically, and otherwise simply because I want him to, and it is a good thing for him to return when the timing is right.

Though, I do think that the "And" idea of his return both as a pure and perfect church, as well as himself is quite plausible.  Afterall, Jesus is the head...it'd be gross for the body to return without its head.  Jesus is a person too afterall, an individual in the body as well as the body.  He'll come back as himself, as well as his church.  There is no reason he shouldn't.

At the end of the day, if His Return is just another way of saying that its just the church, and not Jesus himself as Jesus the individual himself physically (what ever physically may imply) --- It is a poor thing at best, the church is a pale shadow of the Lord...I don't want the church I want its God, if the church comes the more the merrier and I suspect it will.  But I suspect you get the idea.  :thumbsup:

Both is fine, as long as it means that Jesus himself makes his appearance too, as himself as part of that "bothness".

[thinktank]

Yeah I wanna see the head, not just the tail.

Nathan said that seeing him is based on natural reason. I think this is ilogical, as the natural mind does not believe in things that it cannot see. A person without faith cannot comprehend Jesus returning.

Personally I see both being true, that Jesus has already returned in His Spirit presence I AM, but has not returned in His soul until some date in the future, likely to be quite soon, by the scope of things, perhaps within the next 100 years, even.

[jabcat]

I agree that sometimes new revelation is "instead of";  while sometimes it's and/along with, not just 'instead of'.  I certainly could be wrong, we've all got opinions at this point.  But I still believe He will appear both in us, and to us.  Not in these current mortal bodies of flesh, but in raised immortal bodies as in which Jesus went away, and as Paul describes ("2 types of bodies - one sown corruptible, one sown incorruptible").  I don't see anything wrong (or unscriptural) about seeing Him, being "known as we are known".   :2c:

I personally don't believe we're just going to be wispy and invisible.  Apparently God, Who is Spirit can be seen, and Jesus was seen after the resurrection...  Faith is believing without seeing, but then there's still "the substance of"... IMO, scripture is much too graphic from a visual perspective for there to not be something to that aspect/dimension.   

[CHB]

He wasn't saying two thousand years from now I'll return as you see me go  . .he as telling them . .specifically, that as "they" saw him go, the state that they say him go (for me, that's resurrected state, not flesh and blood state) that "they" would personally see him again . . .returing "to them". . . .there is no literal indication that he's telling them he'll come back to them . . and then two thousand years later come back to us .. .  In fact, the whole last days mentality is based on assumptions and preconceived notions that what he's telling them is like a tongue and cheek "wink" in which everybody then supposedly knew it wasn't about "them" but it was about "us" . . .which is far fetched to say the least.

Or . . . . .
The fact that "we" don't think it happened the way "we" interpret it to be saying how it was going to happen, would then lead us to the conclusion that he "must" have meant it was going to happen at a later time . . .which "must" be yet in our future because in our eyes, it hasn't happened yet . . .but I disagree with both of those scenareos because both are based on natural reasoning rather than spiritual revelation.

The people (generally speaking) that embrace that "Just as you saw him go . .. " passage are also the same that bring out the "as it was in the days of Noah" verse . . . they blend the two together to say the same thing they're trying to prove . .. but if you take a look at what happened in the days of Noah .. .the godly weren't the ones removed . . .they were the onlyl ones that remained.  it was the ungodliness that was removed by the flood . . .Noah and his family were spared.   Jesus was all about personal, intimate relatonship on an individual basis.  He didn't come to the generation that he did to warn them about devastation that was coming, or redemption that was coming thousands of years later . . . his message was to them, for that day.  What keeps it alive is the spiritual truth that is in the seed of the message . . .not the literal application of it.

Hi Nathan,

What if Christ did come back in the apostles day and will come again to accomplish and finish the all in all?

There are many scriptures that seem to indicate that Christ returned in 70AD. There are also scriptures that indicate that Christ will return at the end when all will be in all. So, what if there is another coming of Christ that we, {2000 years later} will witness? I see scriptures like (Rev. 21: 3-5)  (Isaiah 25:7-8) (Isaiah 11:6-11)  as pertaining to the time still before us.

I do believe that 70AD was the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of a new way of Christianity but I don't see that 70AD was the end of everything. I think if it was, we wouldn't be here in the flesh, if death is the last enemy to be destroyed and God will wipe away all tears. There is still too much crying in the world today.

CHB

[jabcat]

I agree C.  70 AD was MAJOR!!!!!   But yeah, I believe there's more to come.  Some may call it multiple or further fulfillments.

[reFORMer]

In response to Nathan's OP I offer some thoughts I put out elswhere on tentmaker that here have been pieced together.  Forgive me for not doing a better job.  It's about 1 am here, an hour beyond my bedtime.  Someday I hope to take the time (earlier in the day) to develop writings like this more completely.   I repeatedly sense certain things need to be said.  This is one of them.
____________________________________________________

BEYOND TWO TREES

A similar image found many places in scripture concerns successive levels of holiness, of entrance into the Divine and stages of development.  At the start of "In Beginning," or, "Genesis" there is in the world an Eden (Lit., "pleasure") land that has a garden sanctuary which at it's center has two trees.  In the world there is an Israel land that has a Jerusalem city which has at it's heart a mountain (representing a kingdom) called Zion.   Similar is the outer court (30 fold,) holy place (60 fold,) and the holy of holies (100 fold.)  Just as there are two cherubim, a cherub and a cheruba, with the shekinah glory between them in the innermost of the temple so there are two trees in the midst of the sanctuary in Eden with a fountain of water between.  Male humans (cherubs?) have an x and a y chromosome; as one tree is a duality, good and evil, so also of the two basic forces (not nuclear) one which encompasses light is electromagnetism having polarity, positive and negative.  Females (cherubas?) have double y chromosomes, as one tree is a singularity: life, so also the other (non-nuclear) basic force is unitive: gravitation.

From the tree of the knowledge of good and evil many repudiate the evil from their God knowledge.  How about the good?  Would you walk into incorruptible immortality in the next half an hour if you knew how?  Where is our freedom to will it or to choose it that we could demonstrate this aspect of the real nature of Christ to which we are connected?  So, why don't we know how?  Jesus has opened the door and no man can shut it.  Others have entered into things pertaining to it and God is no respecter of persons.  I can't at this moment, but in sample experiences, obtain the body of resurrected glory.  I can't accuse God of unfairness.  I just don't qualify.  That is no different than qualifying to be slain by Him who both wounds and heals, kills and makes alive.  Each of us walks around with a glory cloud by our head that we can reach up into and a sucking whirlpool at our feet that we can with one step fall into destruction.  Don't imagine you can keep an insipid balance.  God gives spirit things that push us farther than our own self control would let us go.

There are times when the sword of the Spirit cuts into the flesh to bring forth the certainty of absolute grace and grace alone.  Then another time it may be we are incited to good works while it is yet day.  The living and active word of God is to accomplish His purposes in achieving His goal of reproducing His Image and Likeness in us.  What may be needed today is abandonment to God and His Sovereignty.  Tomorrow it is our personal responsibility that is emphasized.  It is a two-mouthed sword.  The point is Jesus.

Of the two trees some propose not eating of the tree of good and evil and to choose life instead.  Hence, we have also exercised ourselves to not think thoughts of duality, only one-ing awareness.  In Psalm 63, having gone progressively out through the thirsty soul into the craving of the flesh, "In land arid and faint, without water," Elohim, His strength and glory, is envisioned in the Sanctuary.  The place where David (Lit., "Beloved," [60 fold]) says, "In the shadow of your wings shall I be jubilant" would be under where the wings of the Cherubim "kiss" called the Mercy Throne.  From there he expects those who would ruin his soul to be removed.  (Grace, Greek, "charis" is "the result of being fulfilled," the result of the need having been met.)  Mercy is "chesed," a desire to meet the need, meaning, "The ardor to fulfill whatever is lacking."  It is God's covenental love in action.  It is His throne upon which the Glory rests.  Overcomers are there.  A line in the Psalm (63) says, "Your Mercy (chesed) is better than life."

The reason she says, "our bed is green" (SS 1:16 ) is because they lie beneath the trees in the midst of the garden.  "...the mature...because of habit, have faculties (senses) exercised toward discriminating beside good and evil." (Heb 5:14)  Beside (the tree of) good and evil is (the tree of) life; but also there is a fountain, because the water that flows downhill, which divided into four heads of rivers, came forth from the midst of the holiest between the two trees flowing down the mountain (kingdom) at the center.  This was as the glory cloud (feminine) between the two Cherubim.  It is something "better than life."

The two trees are made things closest to the river flowing out of the innermost.  Wherever the river flowed, everything lives.  The Cherubim represent the sons of God in their priestly aspect which is how they rule.  Priests are intercessors.  They define the boundaries.  By not guarding the holy places Adam was cast out and His ministry was exercised by Cherubim until the time appointed of the Father for the unveiling of the mature sons to reign.  We are of a place beyond good and evil and better than life.  The Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life, but to the Overcomer it is granted to eat of the tree of life, and we are eating of it.  Father's Finishing work and our maturing causes us to emerge, displacing the cherubim.  The Overcomer is granted to sit down in the Mercy Throne of the Father and the Lamb, the Throne between the two Cherubim.

Between the two trees, out of our innermost flows four rivers of living waters.  Out of duality (knowledge of good and evil, polarized electromagnetic spectrum, my will/His will) and beyond  singularity (life, gravitation, Sovereignty [He will, "...be nullifying all sovereignty" 1 Cor 15:24]) we enter into ecstatic union of the invisible God with His consort, the Shekinah Glory.  (Christ is "the Image of the invisible God" Col 1:15.)  "And they overcame [Satan] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Rev 12:11)  The Mercy Throne is beyond the duality of "my will and His will" and it is also better than a singular Sovereignty.  There is an invitation going out to come into the feast of the Lamb's marriage.  The animal aspect will be raised to partake of permanent life, the full placing of the physical into inheriting the authority of being born out of the house of God, to be exercised in the name of Jesus over all things.

We are the flesh of God in the earth.  We are the bride that is the Glory of her husband.  "They shall be...one shepherd."  The two Cherubim shall become one, THE anointed cherub that covers.  The first was removed that He might establish the second.  The glory of the latter house is greater than the former.  The Adam is superseded by the Christ.  The son of man, the seed, is consummated in the manifestation of the Sons of God, the crop.

(Song of Songs 8:5) It is the "Manchild, Benjamin" who is born of the mother's travail under the apple/apricot (?) tree.  This is the fruit of their union, Shalom and Shaloma, Christ and Christa.   She is known, as is her beloved.  They ask, "Who is this ascending from the wilderness, intimately leaning on her darling?"  The beloved (translated: David) is bringing someone up out of the wilderness.  Has He got someone else?  He has leaning on Him the fruit of their union, who Father awakened under the tree, immediately taking him up as soon as he was born.  They do not know him...yet...


---James Rohde

[reFORMer]

I personally don't believe we're just going to be wispy and invisible.  Apparently God, Who is Spirit can be seen, and Jesus was seen after the resurrection...  Faith is believing without seeing, but then there's still "the substance of"... IMO, scripture is much too graphic from a visual perspective for there to not be something to that aspect/dimension.

There are reasons a spirit can pass through a wall.  One is because of existing in different dimensions. Another is because spirit is of more durable substance than the material of the wall.  The carnal mind mistakenly thinks it perceives the opposite. 

[Molly]

Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

I stumbled on this prayer a few years ago.  It just came out of my mouth, Lord send me legions of your angels.

It worked.  I have since prayed it for others, and seen it work again.

I am now praying it for the world.  We need his help big time.

Jesus says in Mat 26 that he could request this, and he has given us his power of atty--whatever you ask for in my name...

[Beloved Servant]

To all of them he gave each man changes of raiment; but to Benjamin he gave three hundred pieces of silver, and five changes of raiment.

[Molly]

Benjamin is the son of the right hand.  It was Benjamin that Joseph longed for.

"Benjamin"
H1144
בּנימין
binyâmı̂yn
bin-yaw-mene'
From H1121 and H3225; son of (the) right hand; Binjamin, youngest son of Jacob; also the tribe descended from him, and its territory: - Benjamin.





26And when Joseph came home, they brought him the present which was in their hand into the house, and bowed themselves to him to the earth.

27And he asked them of their welfare, and said, Is your father well, the old man of whom ye spake? Is he yet alive?

28And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.

29And he lifted up his eyes, and saw his brother Benjamin, his mother's son, and said, Is this your younger brother, of whom ye spake unto me? And he said, God be gracious unto thee, my son.

30And Joseph made haste; for his bowels did yearn upon his brother: and he sought where to weep; and he entered into his chamber, and wept there.

--Gen 43

[CHB]

Out of the tribe of Benjamin came Paul.

CHB

[redhotmagma]

(Song of Songs 8:5) It is the "Manchild, Benjamin" who is born of the mother's travail under the apple/apricot (?) tree.  This is the fruit of their union, Shalom and Shaloma, Christ and Christa.   She is known, as is her beloved.  They ask, "Who is this ascending from the wilderness, intimately leaning on her darling?"  The beloved (translated: David) is bringing someone up out of the wilderness.  Has He got someone else?  He has leaning on Him the fruit of their union, who Father awakened under the tree, immediately taking him up as soon as he was born.  They do not know him...yet..."

Could you expound on this a bit.  I don't get the manchild bit.  I follow on all of these illustrations.  The two shall become one flesh, we are the bride of Christ, is the production of that union the manchild? which is us in our new state? the one annointed cherub?  What is the "Manchild, Benjamin"?

Shalom and Shaloma? Christ and Christa? are we Christa? Shalom Father, Shaloma Shekina? Any scripture references for this?

Something I've been thinking about lately that seems to fit relates to the Bible in its original order (Askelm.com)  The short version is the Bible should actually have 49 books.
22 OT (some books are combined, like the minor prophets, book of kingdoms [1+2 Sam, 1+2 Kings, Joshua, Judges])
5 gospels (acts)
22 NT  (same thing some books combined)

The bible was designed with gospels as the apex or top of the mountain (where the living water flows, where the mercy seat sits) with the 22 OT as one side of the mountain, 22 NT as the other side.  represented graphically like this   /\

Also the four cherubim seen in Revelation represent each of the gospels Matthew=lion, Mark=ox, Luke=man, John=eagle.  Each of those also represent an aspect of Jesus.  The Acts of the Apostles is also a gospel representing us.  The five books being one as is The Law, being the apex of creation. 

If you also look at the 7 days the true pinnacle is the 4th day, when the sun and moon were created (son=Christ, moon=bride) Christ also came at the fourth day in history.  The 1st day is the base of this mountain /\  represented by "In the beginning God".  The 7th day is the base of the other side of the mountain represented by "God rested" or "in the end God".

After reading ReFormers post, now I look at the bottom of each side of the mountain as the 2 poles. 1st day= Genesis as the duality separating the light from the dark. The other pole being revelation being the oneness 7th day, all in all.

Also you mentioned electromagnetic radiation, there happens to be 7 colors in the visible spectrum roygbiv.  electromagnetic spectrum is represented /\/\/.  when you have all the colors together you have pure light.  I link this in my mind with Dr. Martin's 7 stages of religion with each of the colors representing one of those stages, going with seeing through a glass darkly.  Once all of the stages have been reached the 7th being the mystery, (which is the 2 shall become one flesh, 6 colors=the number of man + 1=Christ) you now have pure white light, and no longer see through a glass darkly. (the colored glass illustration came to me when I was at a hands on museum last weekend and they have a section on light and what happens with different colored glass, or on the opposite side if you shine light through a prism you have the 7 colors come out).

Now the electromagnetic spectrum represented by the 7 colors or the 7 stages of religion make up the left side of the mountain with the apex being the pure light which (the apex ) happens to be the 4th day when the sun and moon were created.  The left side of the mountain is represented by the old testament, and religion with the apex of religion being the mystery, which is the unity of the gospels 4+1=5=true law.  The right side of the mountain is represented by the New testament which is represented by revelation which has 7 trumpets, guess how many notes there are in the major key... 7... do, ra, mi, fa, sol, la, ti.  The right side is representative of unity or relationship, all in all, the left side polarized, got separating light and dark, Israel from nations, 70 nations at babel.  The right side is the bringing of those nations back into unity back to God all in all or in the end God.

One more interesting thing, last week my mom had a dream that she said she was putting on her wedding dress, and asked someone why, I'm already married, the person said we're going to meet Jesus in the air.  As she was flying she started to have fear as in she was going to meet the living God.  Then she saw the sun and the moon come crashing together and form on thing then explode into 4 and spread to all the earth.

I asked her if she had ever heard of the sun=Jesus, moon=bride.  she said no, I'd never heard of it before coming to tentmaker either. 

[redhotmagma]

just to take those previous thoughts a little further:

there happens to be 7 components of the electromagnetic spectrum: radio, microwave, and infrared with visible in the 4th position, then ultraviolet, x-ray, and gamma.  The very apex of the spectrum if bent into /\ is the color green represents life

back to the OT, separation, light spectrum=visible=flesh=outward religion
NT, together, sound=invisible=spirit=breath
spirit + flesh= soul, the two shall become one 4+1=gospels=soul of bible

another thought (after watching Rob Bells everything is spiritual, and reformers post) the two poles represent newtonian and quantum physics.
gravity defines newtonian=oneness pole,
light with its photons and waves, the ability to be 2 things at once = quantum physics=duality pole