Destruction cannot be permanent

[shawn]

Hi again Shawn - I think I remember you have been reading the deuterocanonical books? Wisdom chapt. 12 speaks about how the wicked are punished little-by-little so that they might repent. That is in this life, though.

I don't know if that applies to what you mentioned or if I'm misunderstanding you; it just came to mind as I was thinking about your post.

Now, I think that is quite possible.  I think it's possible the many blows could be referring to punishment in this life.

[LS]

I found an interesting blog on the difference between a refining fire and a consuming fire here. I haven't had time to look at it closely or look up the passages it cites, but this is the question that has been in my mind and I thought others might like to read it too.

[shawn]

Interesting link.  It is certainly one way to look at those scriptures.  I will say though those references to God consuming his enemies are at least in this life.  It COULD mean beyond this life into judgment.  We know God has destroyed sinners by death.  This is fact.  But, when we think of destruction we think of forever.  It certainly seals the deal in this life.  The question remains, does the consuming fire destroy forever the spirit and soul after this life?

When I consume food, I change it from one state to the other.  When fire consumes wood, it turns it from one state to the other.  So, I can't assume that this consumption is not also a purifying.  As our sinful states will be consumed, changed.  It's old parts will no longer exist.  It will eternally be destroyed.

When looking at all the sides, I try to do so with as open of a mind as humanly possible.  There are SO many scriptures that could mean this...could mean that.  People can forever run each other in circles with debate.

The take home message to me is that just because I have a great hope in something doesn't make it true.  But, I have come to accept in my spirit that God has great and magnificant plans for mankind.  I do not believe he tortures, and I'm not convinced he destroys forever.  That gives me great peace.  That peace aides my walk with him.  I am given what I need to know for now, and that's just fine by me.   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

Glad you guys are benefiting from the Mr. Eby post.  Much to consider.

Re: first the natural, then the spiritual;  I personally wonder if any further "fire of God" mankind experiences will be what we understand as natural/"literal" fire.  I've suggested before, I don't see how God, a Spirit, will need literal fire and literally burn people for a spiritual purpose;  to get rid of carnal works, purify, change the spiritual order of things. 

I'm reminded of a Mr. Eby example of a prostitute sitting in a worship service, where the Spirit of God is moving in a strong way, convicting, drawing.  To that prostitute, who may be trying to resist the call, being there in God's presence is torment to her.  She's likely to either be "convinced", or flee the Presence.  Our God is a consuming fire, and none of us as yet have ever stood in His direct Presence.  To do so, in this flesh, we could not live.

I personally believe that's what the scripture means in The Unveiling (Revelations) about being tormented in the presence of the Lamb.  A Lamb is gentle, kind, loving.  He doesn't need to punish - just being in the direct presence of His holiness will be torment (basanos, testing for purity, as with a touchstone) to any part of our essence that is not as yet holy/purified.

I certainly think it's a good step from ET, and I'll admit, I've honestly considered "permanent destruction".  I also used to believe in and argue ET - even against UR.  (Nothing we can take credit for) but is it possible that anything short of ultimate reconciliation is more of a "natural" understanding, whereas God's plan to ultimately reconcile His creation must be (spiritually) revealed to us, by the Spirit?   

God bless.

[micah7:9]

Yes, again on this Bro. Eby is intense and right on in how I understand it.  :bigGrin:

[shawn]

Glad you guys are benefiting from the Mr. Eby post.  Much to consider.

Re: first the natural, then the spiritual;  I personally wonder if any further "fire of God" mankind experiences will be what we understand as natural/"literal" fire.  I've suggested before, I don't see how God, a Spirit, will need literal fire and literally burn people for a spiritual purpose;  to get rid of carnal works, purify, change the spiritual order of things. 

I'm reminded of a Mr. Eby example of a prostitute sitting in a worship service, where the Spirit of God is moving in a strong way, convicting, drawing.  To that prostitute, who may be trying to resist the call, being there in God's presence is torment to her.  She's likely to either be "convinced", or flee the Presence.  Our God is a consuming fire, and none of us as yet have ever stood in His direct Presence.  To do so, in this flesh, we could not live.

I personally believe that's what the scripture means in The Unveiling (Revelations) about being tormented in the presence of the Lamb.  A Lamb is gentle, kind, loving.  He doesn't need to punish - just being in the direct presence of His holiness will be torment (basanos, testing for purity, as with a touchstone) to any part of our essence that is not as yet holy/purified.

I certainly think it's a good step from ET, and I'll admit, I've honestly considered "permanent destruction".  I also used to believe in and argue ET - even against UR.  (Nothing we can take credit for) but is it possible that anything short of ultimate reconciliation is more of a "natural" understanding, whereas God's plan to ultimately reconcile His creation must be (spiritually) revealed to us, by the Spirit?   

God bless.

Terrific post.  The truth about judgment IMO can only be Holy Spirit revealed.  With that said, I truly believe God only gives us what we are able to handle.  Truth is revealed to me in steps.  As I grow I gain intimacy and knowledge.  Many things I thought I had nailed down have been torn down and replaced.  There were also many things within my spirit for as long as I can remember that I now understand Biblically.  The fruit of this knowledge verifies it's validity.  This journey is a very personal experience and each step is there for a reason.