1Corinthians 15:22-28

[WhiteWings]

http://www.1john57.com/tom1cor1528intro.htm

A universalist states of his theology: 


My theology is that the love of God Almighty never fails or expires on behalf of any of His creatures and that He will, in His omnipresence, exercise the unlimited  resources of His omniscience, omnipotence, and grace {unmerited favour, undeserved kindness} to draw all to Himself through whatever it takes, whether His goodness or His judgements, till all are safe and saved into that "in Christ" relationship He so desires {1Co. 15:22-28; Eph.1:10; Phil.2:9-11;  Jn.12:32; etc}.      "Mr. Ray A. Van Dyke, compiled a comparison between the revelation given in Revelation and that given to Paul, as recorded in 1 Cor. 15:22-28. His comments are reproduced here:   "In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God.  Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1 Cor. 15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:      In 1 Cor. 15:22-28, we have:

   
•      No more rule
•      No more authority
•      No more power
•      No more enemies
•      No more reigning
•      All subjected
•      No more death, death destroyed.
•      All made alive, immortal

     In Revelation 20-22, we have:

   
•      Still rule (20:6; 22:5)
•      Son still reigns (22:1-5; 11:5)
•      Authority (21:24,25)
•      Power (21:24,25; 22:2
•      Kings (21:24-26)
•      Saints reign (22:5)
•      Second death still exists (21:5)
•      The nations still mortal (22:2)

     -end quote      "Christians who believe in universal reconciliation believe that the Bible is God's Word, and His Word cannot contradict itself, hence the inspired sacred Scriptures say in Rev. 11:15; 22:5, eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons." Thus, Christ our Lord "reigns for the eons of the eons," not as the king's translators rendered, "forever and ever." Therefore, Revelation 20-22 fits into the framework of the eons, and is truth relative to the eons. First Corinthians Chapter 15 fits at the consummation (end) of the eons.  We give the second Adam, Christ, as much credit and numerical ability as the first Adam, and use 1 Cor. 15:22-28 also for this truth. (Read Rom. 5:18-19.)" --- {Analytical Study of Words, chapter 17}.


    The universalist is quite mistaken regarding his claims for 1Cor15:22-28.  It is quite obvious from a reading of the passage It takes us as far as the second advent of Christ at which time He will raise those who are His thus defeating physical death the last enemy through resurrection as per: 1 Cor 15:49-54
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth
corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(KJV) and 1 Cor 15:23
23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.    (NIV) which clearly showing death is defeated at the advent of Christ. Universalists generally see three resurrection orders in the passage as do some orthodox Christians however note the bible teaches one general resurrection for the righteous and the unrighteous with two very different results: John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (KJV) Notice an hour is coming in which ALL in their graves shall hear Christ's voice and come forth.  That "all" should be understood in an all inclusive sense is obvious.  Here it includes both the righteous and the unrighteous.  ALL come forth at the sound of Christ's voice. Some however receive the resurrection of life; some receive the resurrection of damnation. The Universalist argument:      Three Resurrection Orders "But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception, rather a "but" of
     order.  ALL are to be made alive but at different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders are
     enumerated and located in relation to other events:

   
•      Christ the Firstfruit–Three days after His death.
•      Then those who are Christ's–At His coming.
•      Then the end [order]–WHEN He shall deliver up the kingdom.

     It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. {Joseph E. Kirk, Saviour of All Fellowship} ...fails for the text will not support it: 1 Cor 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  (KJV) The fact is the bible speaks of: (1) The resurrection of Christ
(2) The resurrection of believers. Then it concludes with a statement of the end: 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. It is to be noticed there is no statement of resurrection in this passage; just a statement of the end.  The passage never speaks of the resurrection of the unrighteous.  Further the universalist commentary simply ignores scripture which shows the wicked are raised at the same time as the righteous. John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have
done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.  (KJV) Dan 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame
and everlasting contempt. (NIV) Rev 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven
fled away; and there was found no place for them
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another
book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were
written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which
were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV) ...and the fact that all judged at the same time at the advent of Christ (resurrection and judgment coincide) Matthew 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then
shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from
another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no
drink:
Matthew 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in
prison, and ye visited me not.
Matthew 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or
athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to
one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the
reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the
wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the
reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and
gathered of every kind:
Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into
vessels, but cast the bad away.
Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of
teeth.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he
shall reward every man according to his works. 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all
things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old,
and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord
cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all
their  ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which
ungodly sinners have spoken against him. This coincides well with the final judgment as expressed in the book of Revelation: Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth
and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:  and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the
dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of
fire. Where all the dead are raised. Those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.  Those found in the book will inherit the eternal kingdom of God. Rev 21:1-8
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But those not in the book: 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (KJV) The second death.  The bible is not a hodge-podge of contrary and conflicting idea but speaks as a unified whole expressing but one view in what it teaches. The bible clearly teaches the resurrection and judgment of all at Christ's advent.  As well as opposing destinies for the righteous and the unrighteous on the day of judgment. Both of these destinies are eternal: Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV) The problem with the universalist's argument is that it ignores so much of scripture!

[eaglesway]

The writer clearly has not thoroughly read the scriptures. The judgement of all takes place at the second resurrection, after the thousand year reign, showing clearly that there is an age to come after the first resurrection at the parousia of Christ .... "the rest of the dead will not come to life until the thousand years are completed". Some of these will be approved, some consigned to kolassis/purging (till they pay the last penny... till every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father) in the lake of fire (Romans 2:14-16,Rev 20:2-12). This represents another age beginning at the end of the milienial reign. Since I Cor 15:22-28 says that Christ must reign until every enemy is subdued, the last enemy being death, the second death must be complete before that age ends and all things are "summed up", "gathered into one" in Christ (anakephalaiosasthai). Then Jesus returns all things to the Father that God may become "ALL IN ALL". This obviously is inclusive of the enemies previously subdued- if you read it as it is written and compare with Eph 1:9,10; Colossians 1:16-21;Romans 11:36; Phillipians 2:10,11; and Rev 5:13.

[Molly]

There is so much going on here--it is really hard to keep it all straight.

ww, are you posting here a challenge to UR?  Could you state the challenge in simple language?  It seems like he's saying resurrection of all happens all at once.  But Rev 20 says otherwise.  So does 1Cor 15--each in his own order.

And, I've been thinking what another said on another thread [legoman?]  that by virtue of resurrection, we are raised incorruptible--which means no more able to sin [since the wages of sin leads to death] or, at the very least, all sin is covered.
These, once raised, are immortal.

Still trying to piece it all together...

[WhiteWings]

23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.    (NIV) which clearly showing death is defeated at the advent of Christ. Universalists generally see three resurrection orders in the passage as do some orthodox Christians however note the bible teaches one general resurrection for the righteous and the unrighteous with two very different results: John 5:28-29

UR: 3 resurrections
Orthodox: 2 resurrections
Author: 1 resurrection

[Molly]

however note the bible teaches one general resurrection for the righteous and the unrighteous with two very different results: John 5:28-29

24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

   28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

--John 5

So this is not talking necessarily about 'one' event because the time has now come when the dead hear his voice and live.  These will never die.  [Are they the resurrected dead or the living dead? I don't think it matters because those living dead who become alive in him will never die.  Yet, we are told when he returns the dead in him will raise first, as the first resurrection].  This first resurrection could be the manifested sons of God.

But a time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and be resurrected--this is the second resurrection.

Still piecing it together...

[WhiteWings]

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

I have problems understanding that verse.

"Is coming"
Tense-Present    See [G5774]
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent    See [G5790]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]

now is
Tense-Present    See [G5774]
Voice-No Voice Stated    See [G5799]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]
shall hear
Tense-Future    See [G5776]
Voice-Middle Deponent    See [G5788]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]
Shall live
Tense-Future    See [G5776]
Voice-Middle Deponent    See [G5788]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]

It starts out with 2x present tense about the dead hearing His voice.
-->^YLTJohn 10:16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock--one shepherd.

Then it ends with 2x future tense about the same(?) dead.

Perhaps it just indicates a process? It take a while after hearing the voice until the dead come fully alive.

[eaglesway]

There is so much going on here--it is really hard to keep it all straight.

ww, are you posting here a challenge to UR?  Could you state the challenge in simple language?  It seems like he's saying resurrection of all happens all at once.  But Rev 20 says otherwise.  So does 1Cor 15--each in his own order.

I didn t kno if ww was presenting a challenge to UR.... I thought he was just presenting the writing of some ET/ED guy for critique..... but like you said, there is a lot goin on here....

[thinktank]

25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

Possibly this is talking about a spirit resurection. That before Jesus came to earth, the spirits of men were prisoners in the underworld. e.g Samuel did not came from heaven he came and arised from the earth. Jesus also preached to the prisoners in prison who disobeyed long ago in Noahs time. Now what I find strange is that it mentions the people of Noahs day, but what about people during king Davids day or Mordecai, not these people but the non Isralites who lived during their time? Are these not worthy to obtain resurection?

I think that the dead that arise now are all the Israelites e.g Moses, Abraham. Because God is not the God of the dead but of the living. So God raises these people from the "Xplace, unknown origins and unknown state of existence" to heaven. But those such as those in Noahs day who were not under the old covenant, had to wait until christ died and rose from the dead, and then he preached to the spirits in prison, between his death and resurection. But the reswurection of Moses Abraham occured earlier, otherwise Jesus would not have said "Now the dead are raised". But if some argue that the dead inlcude all people then, why I ask, does Jesus preach to the sprits in prison? If they are in heaven why call it a prison?

Because they are not in heaven and are clearly in prison, they cannot be people who alive, unless the people of Noah used botox and manage to keep themselves preserved  :grin: , until the day of the revelation of the Son of God.

The resurection that Paul talks about is obviously the body, those who live and those who are dead in Christ,  the explanation of Jesus might be also be body resurection, but I have given the above possible explanation of Jesus explanation of resurection, I think that is why the sadducess and scribes argued over this issue, because they only saw one half of the equation.

[Molly]

I think that the dead that arise now are all the Israelites e.g Moses, Abraham. Because God is not the God of the dead but of the living. So God raises these people from the "Xplace, unknown origins and unknown state of existence" to heaven.

I think these never died but were always alive spiritually, e.g. Moses, Abraham, because they knew the Son.  Otherwise, who do you think they were talking to, who walked back and forth in front of Moses on the mountain, who came to Jacob and said, I am the God of Bethel, who met and talked with Abraham about his son of the promise, Isaac?  There has always been a remnant who knew Jesus, and he saved the remnant.  This is why he calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because if, as Jesus says later, he is the God of the living, then these are still living--as we saw in the transfiguration.  :2c:


3Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:

4And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

--Isa 46

[thinktank]

I thought that too, but Samuel comes up, summoned from the ground. Samuel was a man of God too just like Abraham, so my reasoning is that between Adam and Jesus the old test saints were, held somewhere in the underworld, perhaps prisoners of dark forces, but I hope not, but maybe just prisoners in a prison that belongs to God and not the devil, because God is a policeofficer and send sinners to jail, but with Christ the penalty has been paid for, his debts fully paid by a kind soul, Jesus.

[Molly]

I thought that too, but Samuel comes up, summoned from the ground. Samuel was a man of God too just like Abraham, so my reasoning is that between Adam and Jesus the old test saints were, held somewhere in the underworld, perhaps prisoners of dark forces, but I hope not, but maybe just prisoners in a prison that belongs to God and not the devil, because God is a policeofficer and send sinners to jail, but with Christ the penalty has been paid for, his debts fully paid by a kind soul, Jesus.

Wherever he was, he was not too happy about Saul disturbing him from that place.


15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
--1 Sam 28


He also seemed to know a lot about God's plans for Saul.

16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The LORD has done what he predicted through me. The LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the LORD or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the LORD has done this to you today. 19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines."

--1 Sam 28

[thinktank]

True, but maybe its a nice prison  :grin:. The thing is that if all people or at least all Israelites or at least those who were of faith, were raised such as Abraham, Moses, Issac, Samuel perhaps, when did this happen?

Because it seems to be that Jesus arrives and says now they are raised, doesn't that mean, that they were raised around that time, or perhaps a bit earlier?

I can see that Jesus would make a special effort to rescue Abraham and the faithfull from prison, as they have been faithfull to Him, but for the rest such as those spirits who disobeyed long ago during Noahs time, would be locked in prison until he died for them and cover their sins.

But does that mean that from a spiritual standpoint that it is possible to be saved by faith?
I often think the book of Hebrews counteracts this, but perhaps the promise they did not obtain, is the resurection of their bodies, so they might be in heaven by faith, enjoying peace, but cannot eat fish like resurected Jesus did.

But again it goes back to the cross, what's the point of the cross? If they or anyone can be saved by faith.

[Nathan]

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

I have problems understanding that verse.

"Is coming"
Tense-Present    See [G5774]
Voice-Middle or Passive Deponent    See [G5790]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]

now is
Tense-Present    See [G5774]
Voice-No Voice Stated    See [G5799]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]
shall hear
Tense-Future    See [G5776]
Voice-Middle Deponent    See [G5788]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]
Shall live
Tense-Future    See [G5776]
Voice-Middle Deponent    See [G5788]
Mood -Indicative    See [G5791]

It starts out with 2x present tense about the dead hearing His voice.
-->^YLTJohn 10:16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock--one shepherd.

Then it ends with 2x future tense about the same(?) dead.

Perhaps it just indicates a process? It take a while after hearing the voice until the dead come fully alive.

Paul when he was Saul was dead . . .he heard the voice of the Lord and lived.  Spiritual dead coming to spiritual life.

[Molly]

True, but maybe its a nice prison  :grin:. The thing is that if all people or at least all Israelites or at least those who were of faith, were raised such as Abraham, Moses, Issac, Samuel perhaps, when did this happen?

Because it seems to be that Jesus arrives and says now they are raised, doesn't that mean, that they were raised around that time, or perhaps a bit earlier?

I can see that Jesus would make a special effort to rescue Abraham and the faithfull from prison, as they have been faithfull to Him, but for the rest such as those spirits who disobeyed long ago during Noahs time, would be locked in prison until he died for them and cover their sins.

But does that mean that from a spiritual standpoint that it is possible to be saved by faith?
I often think the book of Hebrews counteracts this, but perhaps the promise they did not obtain, is the resurection of their bodies, so they might be in heaven by faith, enjoying peace, but cannot eat fish like resurected Jesus did.

But again it goes back to the cross, what's the point of the cross? If they or anyone can be saved by faith.

I think the process is an ever inclusive one through time.

So, those that died in the faith of Christ, like Samuel for instance, have a different experience than those who died in the wilderness not trusting him.  We can see at the time of the flood, things were really bad because only 8 were saved alive as a remnant.

In the OT, the remnant is small, but they have a direct relationship with the LORD.

In the NT, we are still initially dealing with a small but bigger group, the elect.

But remember, Heb 11 tells us that the OT saints have to wait for us to be perfected, even though they have faith.

39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Heb 11


Is this because we are all the same harvest?  The barley harvest?

And the wheat will be harvested at Christ's coming?  And, we will be doing the harvesting of the wheat?

Something like that is going on.  Because Christ will be returning with clouds [of witnesses/saints].  Those clouds are the barley harvest--the remnant--the holy ones--the elect?



Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Is that the millenium reign of Christ?

[Pierac]

Jewish "Ideal" Preexistence

In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, "And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, 'Give me the money!'" We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: "To your descendents I "have given" this land" (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. "When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven.

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ "was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times" for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the "foreknowledge of God the Father" (1Pet. 1:2). The words "foreknowledge" and "foreknown," noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.

Similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.

In John 17, Jesus prays just before his arrest in the garden, "I glorify You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. And now, glorify me together with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (v.4-5) If ever there was a statement that proved the personal preexistence of Jesus with the Father in heaven before he came to earth, surely this is it. Once again, we must caution against haste, for "In Biblical ways of speaking and thinking one may 'have' something which is promised in God's plan before one actually has its." We have already seen this principle in operation, where God's plan of promises are spoken in the "prophetic past tense." God promised Abraham, "I have given you this land." God says to Christians, "You are seated with Christ in the heavenlies; you are already glorified (Eph. 2:6; Rom.8:30).

We have these things already in the plan and purpose of God -- even though we do not (yet) have them! Scripture tells us that we have eternal life as a present possession, even though clearly we await the day of our entrance into the life of the Age to come, whether by resurrection for those already dead, or the rapture of the living, when Christ returns. God calls the things that are not as though they already exist (Rom. 4:17). Clearly, in Hebrew thinking, the glory which Jesus had "with" God before the world was, it is the glory that it was present in God's mind and purpose from the beginning.

When we examine the rest of Jesus's prayer, it becomes quite clear that the glory Jesus claimed to have had "with the father before the world was" is a glory in prospect. Jesus is using the peculiar Hebrew way of thinking and speaking by which the past tense is employed to speak of the future. To confirm this all we need to do is follow Jesus' prayer through. Jesus speaks as though he has already accomplished his work: he says I have "accomplished a work which you have gave me to do" (v.4). Quite obviously he has not actually finish the work because his crucifixion has not yet happened, and his cry from the cross, "It is finished," has not yet been uttered. Next, Jesus speaks as though the disciples have already fully glorified him (through their preaching ministry) even though the resurrection has not yet happened: he prays, "I have been glorified in them" (v.10).

Jesus also says "I am no more in the world" (v.11) even though he clearly is still in the world. In his own mind, he is already, by faith in the father's promise, sitting in heaven having been resurrected. Jesus says he has already sent the disciples into the world to preach: he prays, "I have sent them into the world" (v.18), even though this did not fully happen until after the resurrection. Jesus prays for his disciples, and "for those also who[will] believed in me through their word" (v.20). That is, he prays for subsequent generations of Christians who will come to faith in Christ down the track. He prays that "the glory which You have given me I have given to them (v.22). He prays that all these believers "which you have given me" (the whole future community of faith) may behold my glory, which You have given me; for You did love [choose] me before the foundation of the world (v.24).

One day the Lord Jesus at his second coming will say to his own people, "Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34). In Paul's language this hope is "laid up for you in heaven" which means it is in God's promise and plan and is certain of fulfillment (Col. 1:5). This hope is so certain that Paul can even speak of Christians as already glorified (Romans 8:29–30, noting the past tense). Indeed, this plan hatched in God's mind "according to His own purpose in grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9). Dunn, in his book, Christology in the Making p238 adds:  "The gift was purposed 'ages ago,' unless we are to take it that the actual giving and receiving,  'us'  and  'Christ Jesus'  were all alike preexistent."  This hope of Christians entering into the age to come was "promised long ages ago" (Tit 1:2). Dunn continues p238.
"Here it is even clearer that what is thought of as happening "ages ago" is God's promise; and it is that promise of eternal life which has been manifested.  Indeed, the text says it is his word that he has manifested - that is, not Christ the Logos, but the word of promise, fulfilled in Christ and offered now back in the kerygma [ message].  In other words, we are back where we started – Christ as the content of the word of preaching, the embodiment of the predetermined plan of salvation, the fulfillment of the divine purpose."


Paul

[eaglesway]

My  :2c:

There is a spiritual truth and a historical prophetic revelation in John 5:24-30

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
(Joh 5:24-30)



Today if you hear His voice...... Let the one who has ears to here hear.... If you abide in me and my words abide in you.... If you continue in my word you will be my disciples for real and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.....Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God....if we walk in the light as He is in the light we have koinonea one with another and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin...Let There Be Light.....Awake O sleeper amd Arise from the dead and the light of Christ will shine on you.... translated us from the kingdom of darkness into His glorious light

Passed from death into life.... all those who walk in hearing the I AM continuously in the today of God "This is the day that the Lord has made, let us be glad and rejoice in it".    An hour that is always coming and always is. These do not come into judgment. They are overcomers and they receive the crown of life.

An hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come forth. The Great White Throne judgment of Romans 2 and Revelation 20, judged out of the books by their deeds and the secrets of their hearts, some sheep, some goats.    An hour that follows death, for all who have not passed from death unto life, and for those who have passed from life back into death by not abiding in hearing -past present and future. These will be entered into judgment on varying levels depending on the measure of their sin or lack thereof. "As I hear I judge and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will."

First Resurrection= Passed from death into life, children of the day(not taken by the thief, death)

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
(Rev 20:4-5)

Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power(passed from death into life), but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
(Rev 20:6)


Second Resurrection  (All those who awaken pass under judgment, some to be approved and enter life, some to enter kolassis, purging and subduing under the feet of Christ)

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:11-15)

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
(Rom 2:5-16)


Peace to all who call on the name of the Lord from a pure heart

[Molly]

This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth,...

1And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

--Ex 34

[Pierac]

This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth,...

1And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

2And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

3And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

4And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

5And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

6And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

8And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

--Ex 34

That's not the point.  I was pointing out the Hebraic use of Language. Jesus' preexistence is not the topic. 

WhiteWings had trouble with...

Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

I have problems understanding that verse.

I was offering a Hebraic take on the language.


Paul

[WhiteWings]

Jewish "Ideal" Preexistence

In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, "And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, 'Give me the money!'" We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.

Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history.

In Dutch we are quite good at mixing tenses :winkgrin:
But just as in your bankrobber example it's clear in which tense the story really is.
The 'problem' with Jesus is that He is timeless; that sometimes makes it hard to understand if things are in past, present or future. (or ongoing)

[Molly]

He talks in the same manner to the woman at the well...talking in present and future tenses at the same time about the same event...


23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


--John 4

[PaoloNuevo]

Oh dear, we should get paid everytime someone cites Matt 25: 46 to prove E.T.  :grin:

Ironically, my no. 1 verse for proving the beginnings of U.R. 

[eaglesway]

Oh dear, we should get paid everytime someone cites Matt 25: 46 to prove E.T.  :grin:

Ironically, my no. 1 verse for proving the beginnings of U.R.

Would you please demonstrate how you use Matt 25:46 to prove the beginnings of UR ?

[Nathan]

I would venture to guess that the word "eternal" there would become a door through which the explanation could be presented that it's original meaning is "age-ending" rather than no end at all to the punishment.

[eaglesway]

Yea, I know thats the translation answer, but I was curious as to how paolo uses the verse in his presentation of UR. I have always thought that the way aionian is used next to life(zoe) and next to punishment(kolassis) is one of the more difficult hurdles when presenting UR to fundamentalist/literalists, and I would like to hear how paolo hurdles it :o)

[Aleax]

As eaglesway pointed out, the Bible states "the rest of the dead will not come to life until the thousand years are completed". I wonder how Hewey is going to explain this one away? By arguing that "for God, 1000 yrs = one day and vice versa". So it's actually going to be a one day kingdom? The alarm clock rings at 8 am for the saints, and at 4 pm for the sinners? :laughing7: