LoF is the Millenium Kingdom???

[WhiteWings]

In Rev we read that the many people are cast in LoF and are watched/tested by Jesus and His angels.
We also read that the elect will rule together with Jesus.
But what are those saints ruling over if only saints are alive?
That would be like being a king in a empty world.
So could the ruling saints be the angels mentioned above?

[Molly]

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.


Yes.  I believe we are [to be] the angels of Jesus, the Y'shu'ah elohiym.


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.


"the salvation"

H3444
ישׁוּעה
y'shû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.


"of our God"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I believe so, too......

[WhiteWings]

I see a lot of doubt in your .....  :winkgrin:

That would mean/prove the 2nd death is only death of sin. Not death of the sinner. I had that feeling before (see TonyN's LoF thread)

I'm quite sure someone posted a verse (or reasoning) that goats are kicked into LoF and the sheep walk in with pleasure.
Perhaps it was in one of Ray Smith articles.

Anyway, does anyone have a verse that leans in that direction?

[Molly]

Some have suggested the Lake of Fire IS the presence of God and his holy ones.

Psalm 104:4
Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:




Here's an example of the set apart ones walking in the fire and not being hurt, and Jesus is there with them.


23And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

--Dan 3

[Nathan]

2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.


Yes.  I believe we are [to be] the angels of Jesus, the Y'shu'ah elohiym.


Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.


"the salvation"

H3444
ישׁוּעה
y'shû‛âh
yesh-oo'-aw
Feminine passive participle of H3467; something saved, that is, (abstractly) deliverance; hence aid, victory, prosperity: - deliverance, health, help (-ing), salvation, save, saving (health), welfare.


"of our God"

H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

Let's look at the whole context here for a sec.
3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing.

Increasing faith . . .increasing love . . .it's evidence.  Evidence of what?

4 Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.  

Out of our hell experiences births strenghtening faith and greater love.  God "uses" tribulation for "his" overall purposes to cause us to flourish in his nature, bringing greater faith in ourselves and greater love to those we encounter.

5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.

Hover on that last line for a bit now.  These prophetic words of admonition and encouragement are connected to revelation.  Has Christ been revealed to ANYONE here yet?  Have you had ANY inward encounter with Christ?  That is the ushering in of God's presence of fire in you . . .tribulation isn't fun, but it "is" of God to draw us into it as it's part of his fire.  Pruning is never painless, but the end results are astonding. 

Now, can you see that this UR message burning in you is not a POWERFUL message?  Our natural minds would focus on the power of the messenger . . .but a messenger's identity doesn't come from his own appearance.  It comes from the message he's bringing forth.  the powerful angels is the this great and powerful message that God truly HAS saved the whole world . . .everything we're trying to sort out after that is irrelevant.  Thsi isn't about identifying with the messengers as much as it is identifying the message. 

8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Is this not what we're seeing in our conversations/debates with others of a different heart?  Their punishment is not eternal torment, their punishment is blindness to what's being revealed because they don't "know" that's a word of intimacy as Adam "knew" Eve and produced Abel.  They don't have the intimacy with the Father . . .it's the same for those who cry "Lord, Lord, but still can't enter into the kingdom (Matt. 7). . .seeing UR is a view from kingdom perspectives because it's in the face of religious logic and reason.

Their punishment is their blindness to life and light. 

9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.[/b]

The day has come in our lives where he IS being glorified in his holy people, because we are letting go of our traditions and religious mind sets, it's setting us apart . . .that's what holy means, our willingness to let go is what ushers in his holiness in us.  Because we've now come into the day of truth and in that truth we're set apart, those that reject the liberation of his powerful message are not punished "in" everlasting destruction, but "with" it.  He is everlasting destruction.  Not to men, but to the man in men.  He is punishing the carnality in men, but because they are embracing it more than He, they remain blind until the destruction is complete.  In the mean time, our message is one of great tribulation to "them".  This help?

Sorry, my "bold" lettering is all messed up and I get get it to quit. . . .sigh . .

[thinktank]

What confuses me is Jesus says

Confess me before men I confess you before my fahter and His angels.


Jesus makes mention of the Fathers angels. I would interpret that to mean that angels belong to the Father but saints belong to Jesus christ. But the problem is that another scripture says that all things were made for him and by him and this is talking about the Son, so perhaps this verse does not mean the fathers angels, but all things as in all things created since the begining of the bible.

Perhaps the father created the angels something not mentioned in Genesis, sometime after giving birth to His son,, then the Son created the heavens and the earth perhaps and all things written in Genesis.

[Aleax]

Interesting theory, but I don't believe the Kingdom = LoF.

The 2nd resurrection will only take place after the 1000 years have passed.

[thinktank]

In Rev we read that the many people are cast in LoF and are watched/tested by Jesus and His angels.
We also read that the elect will rule together with Jesus.
But what are those saints ruling over if only saints are alive?
That would be like being a king in a empty world.
So could the ruling saints be the angels mentioned above?

If you take the book step by step the millenium 7 th day rest is before the LOF, which means that there will be 1000 years before the LOF. This is my hope that if the LOF happens to be a lake of destruction, then Jesus and the saints will have 1000 years to save all of mankind before the LOF judgment, I think he is capable of doing this.

[WhiteWings]

I just remembered a post I made about:
^YLTMatt 25
41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

There I asked/suggested if the fire is made for the devil and his angels then the humans cast in LoF must be angels (unless God changed plan)

Combined with my thought/suggestion in this thread it would be:

Jesus+sinners(=angels)   versus  devil+saint(=angels)

Yes I know there many views on what/who teh devil is. It's just easier to explain that way.

[WhiteWings]

Interesting theory, but I don't believe the Kingdom = LoF.

The 2nd resurrection will only take place after the 1000 years have passed.

I didn't use ???  for nothing. I'm fully aware it's controversial. I just want answers to the problems I stated.
Millenium is not LoF. Then who does Jesus and His saints rule over?
An empty world?
Note Jesus must rule until everything is submitted under His feet.
But how can an empty world be submitted?
How can dead people be submitted.

If the resurrection is after the kingdom then billions of sinners awake without Jesus submitting them.

What if the resurrection = End of the millenium = All are submitted.
In other words LoF=Kingdom and it takes Jesus a 1000 year to submit all in that kingdom/LoF

:fool: :punish:

[WhiteWings]

In Rev we read that the many people are cast in LoF and are watched/tested by Jesus and His angels.
We also read that the elect will rule together with Jesus.
But what are those saints ruling over if only saints are alive?
That would be like being a king in a empty world.
So could the ruling saints be the angels mentioned above?

If you take the book step by step the millenium 7 th day rest is before the LOF, which means that there will be 1000 years before the LOF. This is my hope that if the LOF happens to be a lake of destruction, then Jesus and the saints will have 1000 years to save all of mankind before the LOF judgment, I think he is capable of doing this.

A nice view but also problematic because the sinners are not resurrected in the millenium age.
So that idea is equally flawed I think...?

[WhiteWings]

What confuses me is Jesus says

Confess me before men I confess you before my fahter and His angels.

Can you give me that verse?
I know of a verse stating the Lamb and His angels

Perhaps the father created the angels something not mentioned in Genesis, sometime after giving birth to His son,, then the Son created the heavens and the earth perhaps and all things written in Genesis.

That's very well possible because teh Bible is only about our earth.

[thinktank]

I assume you think that because the verse that says the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years were up?

From my theory the dead here that lived not again, are people who did not receive Jesus as saviour, therefore do not have life.

Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead"

He sometimes calls us the living dead, although we are alive, we are dead, because we don't have Christ, we are in sin and sin leads to death, but he who has the Son has life and is forgiven, passes from death to life.

I could be wrong, but as you also noted "who will we rule over?"

My theory answers that, we rule over the resurected peoples who physically live again.

Although there is another group of people, I must make mention of and that is a remnant will survive Gods wrath upon the earth and those of Gods will rebuild in the promised land, while the rest of humanity, will humble themselves and recognize Israel (Not current Israel) as the capital nation. So we as saints rule over Israel in heavely realms, or possibly we are sent down into earthly Israel to be kings and priests of Gods covenant nation.

[Nathan]

You're blending TT.  You're saying part of it is literal (thousand years) and part of it is spiritual . . .it doesn't work when you blend it.  It gets too messy that way.

[Molly]

Rev 20

Satan locked up

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

Rulers established at the throne

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Those beheaded for Christ reign with him for 1000 years

They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The rest of the dead do not come to life for 1000 years

(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

This is the first resurrection.

At the end of the 1000 years Armeggedon battle led by Satan who has been released for a short time.

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire [where the beast and false prophet already are]

Then the Great white throne judgment.  Dead are resurrected [second resurrection].

Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of fire.

Anyone whose name is not written in the book is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

NOTE:  It's interesting that death, the last enemy, is thrown into the lake of fire before any people are.

That means those people in the lake of fire 1) will not die and 2)they are not an enemy.

[thinktank]

What confuses me is Jesus says

Confess me before men I confess you before my fahter and His angels.

Can you give me that verse?
I know of a verse stating the Lamb and His angels

Rev 3:5
He that overcometh , the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels

Luke9:26
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed , when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Mth16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mth26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Mth4:6
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written , He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up , lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Luke
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men , him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

I think though perhaps these verses could be talking about the sons angels, for the language can imply both

I know that Jesus has angels
2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels



Thats more direct, the Father is not mentioned.

Perhaps the father created the angels something not mentioned in Genesis, sometime after giving birth to His son,, then the Son created the heavens and the earth perhaps and all things written in Genesis.

That's very well possible because teh Bible is only about our earth.

[Nathan]

Rev 20

Satan locked up

He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

Rulers established at the throne

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Those beheaded for Christ reign with him for 1000 years

They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The rest of the dead do not come to life for 1000 years

(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

This is the first resurrection.

At the end of the 1000 years Armeggedon battle led by Satan who has been released for a short time.

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire [where the beast and false prophet already are]

Then the Great white throne judgment.  Dead are resurrected [second resurrection].

Death and Hell are thrown into the Lake of fire.

Anyone whose name is not written in the book is thrown into the Lake of Fire.

NOTE:  It's interesting that death, the last enemy, is thrown into the lake of fire before any people are.

That means those people in the lake of fire 1) will not die and 2)they are not an enemy.

Are we "beheaded"?  For me . . .that's talking about those who've laid their minds down, those who've willingly gave up their riches of knowledge and carried the ark of the covenant upon their shoulders instead.

[thinktank]

You're blending TT.  You're saying part of it is literal (thousand years) and part of it is spiritual . . .it doesn't work when you blend it.  It gets too messy that way.

I thought most of the bible does this. E.g Genesis has a literal creation, but also uses symbols such as the serpent.

God uses the intellect of the mind and also the illiuminating of the Holy Spirit.

It does get messy as you said, but I find most of the bilble to be messy, with all kinds of doctrines mixing and blending and contextual understanding, word translations, word usage coming in to play etc.

[Nathan]

You're blending TT.  You're saying part of it is literal (thousand years) and part of it is spiritual . . .it doesn't work when you blend it.  It gets too messy that way.

I thought most of the bible does this. E.g Genesis has a literal creation, but also uses symbols such as the serpent.

God uses the intellect of the mind and also the illiuminating of the Holy Spirit.

It does get messy as you said, but I find most of the bilble to be messy, with all kinds of doctrines mixing and blending and contextual understanding, word translations, word usage coming in to play etc.

No, the Bible has levels of truths in it . . .but they are layered apart from each other and when you see the layers, they become the whole.  Jeeze . . .it's so tough to put spiritual stuff into words . . .ugh.

And you are right in that we get it all mixed together into a big mess.  I still say it's due to our natural minds trying to reason with spiritual truths . . .

Either it's a literal thousand years, AND Jesus literally meant let dead people bury dead people . . .that's what I mean by mixing it . . .Jesus didn't mean literal dead people, he meant let the spiritually dead people worry about the natural processes of death, the realm of death.  But Revelation had (past tense) a literal application to it, but not for a generation 2000 years removed . . .spiritual truth is endless, so "that's" what effectively applies . . .

Kingdom language uses measures, colors, metals, light, dark, man/woman . . contrasts . . .it uses natural elements for our benefit, to reveal spiritual principles.  (Romans 1:20).  We're not to apply the signs as literal applications, but as spiritual links that connect to already established templates elsewhere in Scripture.  That's what it means to let Scripture interpret itself.  The foundation is already there, we simply just overlay the latter to the former and "that" reveals the spiritual pattern . . .which all points to Christ.  This isn't a revelation of man and Jesus . . .it's a revelation of Jesus . . .we need to get man out of it.

So it's not about literally living and reigning with Jesus for a literal thousand years . . .it's again connecting us directly to the heart of God . . .the dimensions of the holy of holies, patterned again after Jesus . . .it's pointing to the intimacy . .. in our intimacy with the Father, the adversary in us is bound.  When we step out of that intimacy, we are the ones once again releasing the adversarial nature . . .it's the walk of life . . .

The difference now is, no longer is the adversary the continual prince of the air . . .but now, it is only mobile in "seasons".  A SHORT period of time as opposed to what it used to be, before we had a relationship with God at all.

[thinktank]

You said let scripture interpret scripture. I think that's what the theory is based upon, i.e 7 days of creation, 1 day is as a thousand years, 7th day is the day of rest, 1000 year rest for the people of God, there is a pattern behind the 1000 years, rather than it just being a random number. E.g the 144,000 in the book of revelation seems to be a random number and therfore cannot really stand much on it's own as being a literal 144,000 saints, but the 1000 years of rest number has a pattern to it and also Satan is bound for an exactly 1000 years, is this a coincidence?

#
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said , As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

#
Hebrews 4:4 KJV
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.


.Jesus didn't mean literal dead people, he meant let the spiritually dead people worry about the natural processes of death, the realm of death.  But Revelation had (past tense) a literal application to it, but not for a generation 2000 years removed . . .spiritual truth is endless, so "that's" what effectively applies . . .
Nathan

The part that is spiritualized is the bolded part. Perhaps you are correct and it is not allowed in bible 101 to mix a literal piece (1000 years)and then to connect it to a spiritual piece (i.e the living dead I talked about), in biblical rules, but I'm not sure if such a rule exists, if there were such rules it would help make the bible more logical and more stable, but is this a man made rule or a rule God has created  :dontknow:

[Molly]

You said let scripture interpret scripture. I think that's what the theory is based upon, i.e 7 days of creation, 1 day is as a thousand years, 7th day is the day of rest, 1000 year rest for the people of God, there is a pattern behind the 1000 years, rather than it just being a random number. E.g the 144,000 in the book of revelation seems to be a random number and therfore cannot really stand much on it's own as being a literal 144,000 saints, but the 1000 years of rest number has a pattern to it and also Satan is bound for an exactly 1000 years, is this a coincidence?

#
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said , As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

#
Hebrews 4:4 KJV
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.


.Jesus didn't mean literal dead people, he meant let the spiritually dead people worry about the natural processes of death, the realm of death.  But Revelation had (past tense) a literal application to it, but not for a generation 2000 years removed . . .spiritual truth is endless, so "that's" what effectively applies . . .
Nathan

The part that is spiritualized is the bolded part. Perhaps you are correct and it is not allowed in bible 101 to mix a literal piece (1000 years)and then to connect it to a spiritual piece (i.e the living dead I talked about), in biblical rules, but I'm not sure if such a rule exists, if there were such rules it would help make the bible more logical and more stable, but is this a man made rule or a rule God has created  :dontknow:

This is really interesting. wow.

So are you saying that the 1000 year reign of Christ corresponds to the 7th day which is rest?  And that there is a parallel in the OT where He would not let those who refused to trust him into his rest? So they were forced to wander in the wilderness until that generation of stiff necked people died off--also the law, moses couldn't enter, either--and then let Joshua lead the children into the promised land which equals the 7th day, his rest?  So those in the lake of fire will be kept out of the new Jerusalem the way those stiff necked were kept out of the promised land--for one day [1000yrs]?

Is that what you're saying?  wow.  I think you're onto something here.

Only the children were allowed to enter the promised land [plus Joshua and Caleb].


3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

--Mat 18:3

[jabcat]

Molly, I've seen Tony N and Martin Zender tie eonian life into this.  Approximately, I think they say that only the redeemed/saved will enjoy that 1,000 year time with Christ.  Now, I thought I understood them to also say that all the others would be sleeping/not as yet resurrected, therfor not having "life eonian" (that's a Concordant Literal Version translation in certain places - Martin Z and of course Tony N, who works with the Concordant Publishing Concern use that version).  However, if not sleeping - or maybe those who've already died will be sleeping - then maybe the rest (those alive and remaining when the next age is ushered in, however that happens [Jesus' return]) are those who are "outside the city", not enjoying life eonian with the Lord.  Perhaps those are being tutored ("ruled and reigned" over) during that time?

There may be more questions there than answers, but I do think the "life eonian" may be a piece of this?

[Molly]

Molly, I've seen Tony N and Martin Zender tie eonian life into this.  Approximately, I think they say that only the redeemed/saved will enjoy that 1,000 year time with Christ.  Now, I thought I understood them to also say that all the others would be sleeping/not as yet resurrected, therfor not having "life eonian" (that's a Concordant Literal Version translation in certain places - Martin Z and of course Tony N, who works with the Concordant Publishing Concern use that version).  However, if not sleeping - or maybe those who've already died will be sleeping - then maybe the rest (those alive and remaining when the next age is ushered in, however that happens [Jesus' return]) are those who are "outside the city", not enjoying life eonian with the Lord.  Perhaps those are being tutored ("ruled and reigned" over) during that time?

There may be more questions there than answers, but I do think the "life eonian" may be a piece of this?

Right.  Sorry.  I forgot the lake of fire happens after the 1000 year reign.  So, those not resurrected in the first resurrection will be sleeping, yes.  So strike LoF from my above post and replace with unbelievers.

I'll get this right eventually lol.


So Lof happens in the 8th day for unbelievers.

[jabcat]

Oh man, lol, I don't know, I'm just suggesting the life eonian piece might be an important fit in there somewhere.  On these type of technical details, don't take my word for it.  I feel I have more of a "bigger picture view" - you and some of the others are better at the details.   :gimmefive: