LOF is still torture, says my UR friend.

[PaoloNuevo]

I have a UR friend who said that even though the LOF isn't "eternal" or God's future judgments aren't eternal, they are still dreadful and extremely torturous because Christ had to be tortured and to endure separation from the Father...

In the same manner, those who can not yet be saved must be tormented with equal and similar magnitude...

Otherwise, Christ's  (gruesome) suffering would not have been an exchange on our behalf??

What is your response to this?

While a lot of UR authors emphasize the tenor of Scripture that says God renders one according to works (no more no less)... there is also this dichotomy of the Cross vs. the judgment that must come (the wrath to come) if someone ends up being unsaved in the day of judgment...

- Finally, I say this because most UR discussions think of the LOF as simply a benign and purifying situation during the ages of the ages but this particular friend of mine wants to look at the way Christ brutally suffered (for our sins), a suffering that those who will end up unsaved must endure too (?) or even worse before all must be reconciled.

What do you guys think of this?

[CHB]

If Christ's death paid for all sin, then what is the torture for?

CHB

[PaoloNuevo]

Well the argument is yes, Christ paid for all sin... but for those who sin deliberately God will offset the Cross and instead replace it with a fiery judgment (equal in magnitude to the way Christ was tortured?):

Hebrews 10:26-29 (New International Version, ©2010)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

[WhiteWings]

That's a problematic verse PN.

Jesus payed for all sins. ALL.
But your verse claims: All EXCEPT.

The wages of sin is death.
Or more exactly: The wages of UNPAID sin is death.
Only Jesus can make that payment.
But because the payment of Jesus was limited death is still a possiblity....?

That's easy :winkgrin:
The reason I find it problematic is that I think Jesus did pay to keep us from death.
But He didn't pay so that whatever we do is ignored.
I do believe everyone will get a good spanking.
And to a certain degree I can agre with your friend that continue sinning adds to the spanking.
Were I disagree with your friend is that I don't believe crucifixion and stoning is corrective punishment.
Nobody learns from a rain of stones.
More correction: yes.
Torture: No.

The Bible also teaches (imo) we can't stop sinning without help from above.
So maybe that knowledge of Jesus isn't enough.
Mr. Atheist and Mrs. Muslim also heard about Jesus. But I doubt it makes a big impression on them.

:dontknow: :dontknow:
:dontknow:

[thinktank]

This is one of the reasons, if this be true I would prefer the lake of fire to be ED and hopefully before people are thrown in, all will bow and confess Jesus as lord, before both body and soul are destroyed in hell. This means UR can be still true, as long as they confess Jesus before the end of death. The problem with this theory though is that the spirits do not have a body to be destroyed and so Jesus when he said fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell, he might be talking about earthly life and how God might be able to raise one from the dead and put them in a horrible environment, such as how cain had to be an outcast in the horrible conditions of the earth, God might resurect bad people and punish them like as Cain was punished.


ps if what your friend says is true, the people in the lake of fire won't suffer as much as Jesus because he took on the sins of the world, but they sufer for their own sins. But also Jesus blood pays for all sin, including theirs, all they have to do is cash out, but their pride and stubborn attitudes prevents them from coming to Jesus, so as long as they remain outside of the kingdom of God, their spirits are reaping the fruit of their own evils and it's only by coming to Jesus and accepting his sacrifice, they then become part of the children of God. I for one think at this time that they will not have human bodies to cover their sins, but their sins will be naked before all, because in the spirit world, everything is more transparent, they would be naked I assume until they come to Christ to be washed clean and clothed.


:2c:

[WhiteWings]

but their pride and stubborn attitudes prevents them from coming to Jesus,

Part of the reason is that people don't beliece. If they wake up after death they have prrof of what they never believed.
But there is another problem.... It's not about belief as western people define it. Dare I say "works"  :mblush:
Jesus did cast out demons and transfered them in some pigs.
Those demons knew Jesus. They really believed Jesus is real and is the Son of the Big Boss.
For ancient Jews and Christians "believe" was not meaning "it's very well possible" No it meant a certainty. But not just knowing but also acting like Jesus. So not just saying help the sick; but actually giving real help.
I think that's what the judment of works is about:
I was hungry and you did feed me ---> People that believed in in Jewish way
And "But Lord we preached in your name...." ---> People that only acted cool as long as it didn't cost them a cent.

No no peepz I'm not speaking about works based salvation. I'm speaking about works not being overlooked on Judgement day.
That brings me back to PN's opening post. I don't see how people will become more loving by being tortured.
Ok, they will understand that the Judge wasn't happy with what they did but they still didn't learn to do it right.
You can't beat/force love into someone.
:2c:

[PaoloNuevo]

That's easy :winkgrin:
The reason I find it problematic is that I think Jesus did pay to keep us from death.
But He didn't pay so that whatever we do is ignored.
I do believe everyone will get a good spanking.
And to a certain degree I can agre with your friend that continue sinning adds to the spanking.
Were I disagree with your friend is that I don't believe crucifixion and stoning is corrective punishment.
Nobody learns from a rain of stones.
More correction: yes.
Torture: No.

That settles it then.  :winkgrin:

I really like this verse from Paul, it shows how God will judge with equity... And in spite of talking about "wrath" upon those who are disobedient, it also says God does not show partiality.

Romans 2:8-11 (New King James Version)

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.

[shawn]

That's a problematic verse PN.

Jesus payed for all sins. ALL.
But your verse claims: All EXCEPT.

The wages of sin is death.
Or more exactly: The wages of UNPAID sin is death.
Only Jesus can make that payment.
But because the payment of Jesus was limited death is still a possiblity....?

That's easy :winkgrin:
The reason I find it problematic is that I think Jesus did pay to keep us from death.
But He didn't pay so that whatever we do is ignored.
I do believe everyone will get a good spanking.
And to a certain degree I can agre with your friend that continue sinning adds to the spanking.
Were I disagree with your friend is that I don't believe crucifixion and stoning is corrective punishment.
Nobody learns from a rain of stones.
More correction: yes.
Torture: No.

The Bible also teaches (imo) we can't stop sinning without help from above.
So maybe that knowledge of Jesus isn't enough.
Mr. Atheist and Mrs. Muslim also heard about Jesus. But I doubt it makes a big impression on them.

:dontknow: :dontknow:
:dontknow:

I agree.  Jesus paid the debt.  The debt has been paid in full.  I believe the LoF is separation from God and a turning over to our sins to allow them to bloom into fulfillment be broken and die to self...and my hope is for all to turn to Him in their brokeness.  That is at least how I see it today.  This isn't payment, nor is this torture.  We all must be purified, die to self.  As hard as it is to abide in the fire sometimes.  I know accepting the hand of purification here surely beats having to go to Gehenna.

[jabcat]

That's a problematic verse PN.

Jesus payed for all sins. ALL.
But your verse claims: All EXCEPT.

The wages of sin is death.
Or more exactly: The wages of UNPAID sin is death.
Only Jesus can make that payment.
But because the payment of Jesus was limited death is still a possiblity....?

That's easy :winkgrin:
The reason I find it problematic is that I think Jesus did pay to keep us from death.
But He didn't pay so that whatever we do is ignored.
I do believe everyone will get a good spanking.
And to a certain degree I can agre with your friend that continue sinning adds to the spanking.
Were I disagree with your friend is that I don't believe crucifixion and stoning is corrective punishment.
Nobody learns from a rain of stones.
More correction: yes.
Torture: No.

The Bible also teaches (imo) we can't stop sinning without help from above.
So maybe that knowledge of Jesus isn't enough.
Mr. Atheist and Mrs. Muslim also heard about Jesus. But I doubt it makes a big impression on them.

:dontknow: :dontknow:
:dontknow:

I agree.  Jesus paid the debt.  The debt has been paid in full.  I believe the LoF is separation from God and a turning over to our sins to allow them to bloom into fulfillment be broken and die to self...and my hope is for all to turn to Him in their brokeness.  That is at least how I see it today.  This isn't payment, nor is this torture.  We all must be purified, die to self.  As hard as it is to abide in the fire sometimes.  I know accepting the hand of purification here surely beats having to go to Gehenna.

:thumbsup:  Good thoughts guys.

[Nathan]

We all experience the refiners fire on one level or another.  It's a never ending fire, but our refining experiences do have endings . .. and as we continue our walk with him more refining takes place on a regular basis.  It's not that we wallk in pain and torture . . .it's not that God is spanking us even . . .it's merely the shower that is required at the end of the day so that when we go to bed (rest) we don't wallow in the dirt we've encountered on that particular day.  Not everyone sees bathing as a bad thing.  The lake of fire is no different . .. and it does the same thing.  It washes us clean, it deals with our carnality, our guilt, our weaknesses of this flesh . . .and it cleanses us.  But we don't walk about with banners and signs declaring the end of man because we now have to take a bath.  The bath isn't destructive to our relationship with the Father, or to our existing lives as we know it.. . yet the minds of men seem to only be able to see it in that light of destruction and no other.

[PaoloNuevo]

I agree with James... Really good thoughts!  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

In literal translations, God is described as "the Happy God" in 2 different places in the New Testament.  One writer said "that's because God knows how everything turns out".  He has a plan that doesn't include tormenting 90%+ of His creation for billions of years on end. 

The Hebrew word for wrath literally means "something lifted or carried" [like a burden?].


Romans 3 - "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation." The basic meaning of propitiation is "appease" or "satisfy."      When one is given faith to believe in Jesus as Savior, old is passing away and things are becoming new.  We become a new creation, spiritually reborn.  God is pleased and brings us along as sons.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that even though God may still have a "burden" stored up, to lay upon "children of disobedience", and that it won't be fun or comfortable being purged,  I believe anything further will be of a corrective and cleansing nature,  bringing the remainder to repentance - not just anger or retribution without a redemptive purpose.   :2c: