So jesus achieved nothing by coming in the flesh?

[nes]

I've read an article here and was shocked by the logic used to make the argument that everyone is going to heaven.  The arguments used contradict each other and take twisted interpretations of the bible.  I'm sure you've already seen these verses.

Matthew 25:41 niv 2010 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 20:5-6  "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

Revelation 20:10  And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:13-15  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 14:11  "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Matthew 10:28  "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 12:5  But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Matthew 18:8-9  If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Matthew 25:46  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

II Thessalonians 1:9  They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

Matthew 13:41-42  The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 21:8  But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Luke 16:19-31  In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

So, what's with all the talk about being saved?  Saved from what if hell does not exist or if nobody went to hell?  And if you believe that jesus saved everyone from hell, then why do you need to believe him to be lord to have eternal life?  Jesus said that it was better for him to go away, why would it be better? 

A misinterpretation can arise just from the fact when jesus was talking to his disiples (believers), the statement would appear to look like he is talking to you (everyone). 

John 16:7  "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

In this verse, jesus was talking to his disciples, not any non-believers.  So this statement does NOT mean that the holy spirit will go to everyone.  So we need to take in to consideration on WHO jesus was speaking to, especially when the word "you" is in the verse.  The word "you" refers to the disciples that he was talking to.

There are so many misinterpretations of bible verses that I don't know where to begin, I would avoid letting feelings determine what the bible means. 

[jabcat]

Are you willing to learn, as we all need to be?  Pretty much everyone here has been pretty much where you appear to be, until God revealed ultimate reconciliation (The Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ) to them.  If you're open to exploring and to ask God to reveal His truth to you, no matter what preconceived ideas you have and have been taught by the traditions of men (which make the Word of God of no effect) you've come to a good place.  If you prefer to attempt to convince those who've already been there and have been brought out of it by the grace of God, to go back in, it probably won't happen.

Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord Jesus and believes on Him for salvation is saved.  Beyond that, if you have true concerns and questions, we'd love to discuss them.  Please know there are many mistranslations in many of the popular versions (including what you've quoted) and that mainstream religion has twisted the pure message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Savior of the world (John 4:42) - and pray for eyes to see and ears to hear - as I need to do every single day. 

James.

[WhiteWings]

I've read an article here and was shocked by the logic used to make the argument that everyone is going to heaven.  The arguments used contradict each other and take twisted interpretations of the bible.  I'm sure you've already seen these verses.

We have seen the verses. Often.... :winkgrin:
Using a more literal translation will show how paganiszed your belief is.
Or just use the KJV in combination with Strong and Thayer lexicons.

Can you show me two (or more) UR arguments that contradict each other?

[WhiteWings]

BTW I don't understand the topic title
"So jesus achieved nothing by coming in the flesh?"

UR claims Jesus saved 100% of humanity.
100% is nothing?

[lookingup]

imo what makes no sense to me is that if the mainstream church is correct only around 10% (and that is the high estimate) of humanity will be saved, to me that is a pitiful return on any effort.

The first thought i have on the op is that Jesus did not come to save us from "hell", He came to save us from the wages of sin. which is DEATH

According to the scriptures this will be the last enemy to be destroyed, if their is any that once had life and is not alive at that time then it has not been defeated.

The scriptures tells us all will acknowledge that Christ is Lord and the onlt way to the Father, but the mainstream church teaches that ALL will not come to the knowledge of the truth, in spite of what the scriptures say.

Go figure

[thinktank]

The lake of fire can be thought of as a purifying fire, that cleanses a sprit the same way in which fire purifies gold.

Before we were saved we had invisible fire from God upon us that, melted away the unbelief and then we called upon his name. This same thing could happen in the very lake of fire. If God can convert you, he can convert others.


Second the lake of fire could be a lake of everlasting destuction, where body and soul are destroyed. But notice that in these verses nobody except the devil, beast and false prophet are thrown in, all the other verses are threats. If you know the gospel by know I'm sure you know that God threatens often, but many times he repents and changes his mind and love wins. If the people of God truly become adopted sons of God then by the time these event come about there will be a thousand Jonahs to plead for the life of these men/spirits that God is throwing into the lake.

If enough people intercede God always has mercy.

[WhiteWings]

John 16:7  "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

In this verse, jesus was talking to his disciples, not any non-believers.  So this statement does NOT mean that the holy spirit will go to everyone.  So we need to take in to consideration on WHO jesus was speaking to, especially when the word "you" is in the verse.  The word "you" refers to the disciples that he was talking to.

And what exactly does make someone a believer?
I think you have things in the wrong order.
AFTER the HS comes into you, you start to believe. The HS doesn't come into you BECAUSE you believe.
John 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
It's Father that takes the first step. You/I/anyone is unable to belief without Father putting that belief inside you.

There are so many misinterpretations of bible verses that I don't know where to begin, I would avoid letting feelings determine what the bible means.

Ditto for paganized/faulty translations.

[thinktank]

John 16:7  "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

In this verse, jesus was talking to his disciples, not any non-believers.  So this statement does NOT mean that the holy spirit will go to everyone.  So we need to take in to consideration on WHO jesus was speaking to, especially when the word "you" is in the verse.  The word "you" refers to the disciples that he was talking to.

And what exactly does make someone a believer?
I think you have things in the wrong order.
AFTER the HS comes into you, you start to believe. The HS doesn't come into you BECAUSE you believe.
John 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
It's Father that takes the first step. You/I/anyone is unable to belief without Father putting that belief inside you.

There are so many misinterpretations of bible verses that I don't know where to begin, I would avoid letting feelings determine what the bible means.

Ditto for paganized/faulty translations.

I disagree with you on this whitewhings. I can't see the holy spirit entering unclean vessels, otherwise everyone would be holy. The holy spirit only enters clean vessels. As a christian when one sins they grive the holy spirit and sometimes holy spirit leaves, but as Christ says I will never leave you nor forsake you, but he will chastize you and might take away the holy spirit. I think in the psalms it says "please don't take thy holy spirit from me".


However I think what your saying is that the holy spirit, convicts everyone believer and nonbeliever. I believe this because the scripture says "I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh"

Also it says in gospel "Holy spirit convicts the world of sin and unbelief in me"

So from what I've gathered

"Holy spirit convicts the world of sin" (Feel something is wrong, missing)
"Holy spirit/Father brings them to Christ" (Interested in who Jesus is, or the word)
"Sealed with the holy spirit" (confess christ)
"Filled with the holy spirit, such as the day of pentecoast" (Few believers are filled because they have to much sin in their lives, that's why the church rarely does miracles these days, but of course life is big and so is the number of reasons as to why there are not miracles, sometimes people are filled with the spirit but do not have the faith to do the miracles etc.)

[Taffy]

John 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
It's Father that takes the first step. You/I/anyone is unable to belief without Father putting that belief inside you.

To clarify Faith comes  by Belief , though faith has to BE HEARD  :icon_flower:

However, The hearing comes BY the WORD of GOD- [not the BOOK]

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing""" by"""" the word of God.

BY1) through

a) of place

1) with

2) in

b) of time

1) throughout

2) during

c) of means

1) by

2) by the means of

2) through

a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

1) by reason of

2) on account of

3) because of for this reason

4) therefore

5) on this account

which implies the SPIRIT was already at WORK

:icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

John 16:7  "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

In this verse, jesus was talking to his disciples, not any non-believers.  So this statement does NOT mean that the holy spirit will go to everyone.  So we need to take in to consideration on WHO jesus was speaking to, especially when the word "you" is in the verse.  The word "you" refers to the disciples that he was talking to.

And what exactly does make someone a believer?
I think you have things in the wrong order.
AFTER the HS comes into you, you start to believe. The HS doesn't come into you BECAUSE you believe.
John 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
It's Father that takes the first step. You/I/anyone is unable to belief without Father putting that belief inside you.

There are so many misinterpretations of bible verses that I don't know where to begin, I would avoid letting feelings determine what the bible means.

Ditto for paganized/faulty translations.

I disagree with you on this whitewhings. I can't see the holy spirit entering unclean vessels,

That's your view but what exactly does the verse tells us? It says Father takes the first step. At that point the vessel is not clean/no believer.

otherwise everyone would be holy.

Everybody will be holy in the future. But that's not what the verse says. The verse doesn't mention a percentage.
So it could be 0.0001%, 10% or xx%....

All have sinned. Doesn't that mean all vessels are unclean.
What about the vessel once called Saul? Not a prime example of a Jesus seeker. He was drawn.

[micah7:9]

"I disagree with you on this whitewhings. I can't see the holy spirit entering unclean vessels, otherwise everyone would be holy. The holy spirit only enters clean vessels." TT

Mat 9:13  but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'
Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

I believe that The Holy Spirit is the only way(Jesus) cleans one up for sacrifice. When Jesus was speaking to the disciples in Jo. 16:7 that "you" is me, its anyone who will hear.

Also where is this verse in the gospel? 
"Also it says in gospel "Holy spirit convicts the world of sin and unbelief in me"

"What about the vessel once called Saul? Not prime example of a Jesus seeker. He was drawn."  WW
Amen WhiteWings Amen! :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

^YLTActs 10
28 And he said unto them, `Ye know how it is unlawful for a man, a Jew, to keep company with, or to come unto, one of another race, but to me God did shew to call no man common or unclean;

[thinktank]

It is difficult to get my point across unless one believes the holy spirit and the father are different entities.

But as for the father who draws one to Jesus, I agree with you on that part, take a look at the step by step process I made, the first step was the Father drawing men to Jesus, an interest in Jesus if you like, i know that this is what happened to me, I became interested in prophetic declarations made in the bible, then I found Jesus and increased my faith in him.

One of the men said to Jesus "Lord I believe, help mine unbelief"

Faith is part of growing up in the word, if it was all the Fathers faith, given to us we would all be water walkers, but only a few I think are given faith by God for special purposes, others must strive for it.

I have more faith in God than an unbeliever and believe he can do miracles today, but the father draws all men to Jesus, for many are called and few such as Mary and Saul are chosen.

"What about the vessel once called Saul? Not prime example of a Jesus seeker. He was drawn."  WW
Amen WhiteWings Amen!

He was appointed a prophet in his mothers womb, he was chosen by God according to his words.
The experience to Damascus opened his eyes to his mission and purpose.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

It is difficult to get my point across unless one believes the holy spirit and the father are different entities.

I tried to avoid mentioning that because I think it's not important in this case. Father draws. That's what counts.

But as for the father who draws one to Jesus, I agree with you on that part, take a look at the step by step process I made,

Don't get me wrong TT. I think it's in almost every case a step by step process. Saul was instant conversion. Maybe there are a few similar cases in history but for most it's slow. And most never reach sainthood in this life.

"What about the vessel once called Saul? Not prime example of a Jesus seeker. He was drawn."  WW
Amen WhiteWings Amen!

He was appointed a prophet in his mothers womb, he was chosen by God according to his words.
The experience to Damascus opened his eyes to his mission and purpose.
:2c:

Sure. Part of the plan.
Question: Was Saul 1 hour before his conversion a vessel of honor or a vessel of wrath.
You said the HS never enters a unclean vessel. Let's not argue about that.
If I say the unclean vessel Saul was destroyed and a new clean vessel Paul was made; can you agree with that?

He was appointed a prophet in his mothers womb, he was chosen by God according to his words.

Aren't we all appointed for something? That appointing is done by Father.

[jabcat]

Yes, Jesus ransomed all by coming in the flesh.  He paid the price, bore our sins, saved us from death - spiritual and literal.  There will be a resurrection! and consummation!

I believe the Holy Spirit has to do the cleansing before anyone is clean.  Does that happen from the outside, or the inside?  I believe the Holy Spirit convicts (behold I stand at the door and knock) gives faith to believe (that not of yourselves) then enters and cleanses (the inside of the cup). 

I don't see the Holy Spirit leaving someone after taking up residence.  In the OT the Holy Spirit came by visitation, for specific times and purposes.  The Comfortor has now come!

And,

"He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it."

"We are predestined in Him for good works."

I've read that being sealed in Bible days was a binding legal transaction;  similar to "it is finished - [the debt is] paid in full";

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...Eph. 1:13

Each in his own order.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So jesus achieved nothing by coming in the flesh?

I would gather that if you think Jesus succeeding as Saviour of the World is achieving nothing by coming in the flesh your problem cannot be with this site.

[thinktank]

Yes, Jesus ransomed all by coming in the flesh.  He paid the price, bore our sins, saved us from death - spiritual and literal.  There will be a resurrection! and consummation!

I believe the Holy Spirit has to do the cleansing before anyone is clean.  Does that happen from the outside, or the inside?  I believe the Holy Spirit convicts (behold I stand at the door and knock) gives faith to believe (that not of yourselves) then enters and cleanses (the inside of the cup). 

I don't see the Holy Spirit leaving someone after taking up residence.  In the OT the Holy Spirit came by visitation, for specific times and purposes.  The Comfortor has now come!

And,

"He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it."

"We are predestined in Him for good works."

I've read that being sealed in Bible days was a binding legal transaction;  similar to "it is finished - [the debt is] paid in full";

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...Eph. 1:13

Each in his own order.

That's pretty good jabcat  :thumbsup:

You said the HS never enters a unclean vessel. Let's not argue about that.
whitewings

That sounds different interpretation now that I look at it twice. What I mean is that the holy spirit does not enter an unbeliever ,e.g king Herod, but I think does enter someone like Peter, and stays even after denying the lord three times, even though the spirit was not yet given at that time, I give this example for the time being to show that a sinfull christian still retains the spirit even if they are unclean, but does not enter a non beliver of christ, otherwise the whole world would be a christian or at least would feel more drawn towards God.

[pollypinks]

Genesis 12:3  ALL peoples will be blessed through you.  Psalm 22:27  ALL the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and ALL the families of the nations will bow down before him.  Psalm 65:1-2  Praise awaits you, O God, in  Zion; to you our vows will be fulfilled.  O you who hear prayer, to you ALL men will come.  Hosea 11:9  I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim.  Fo I am God, and not man-the Holy One among you.  I will not come in wrath.  Joel 2:28  I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people.  Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men will see visions.  Matt.18:14  :Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.  Mark 11:17  My house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL nations.    Luke 3:6  ALL mankind will see God's salvation.  Luke 19:10 The Son of Man came to seek and sav what was lost.  John 1:9  The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.  John 12:32  When I am lifted up, I will draw ALL men to myself.  Romans 11:32  God had bound ALL men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on ALL men.  1 Cor. 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so in Christ ALL will be made alive. 

These are but a few of universal scriptures.  There are many more, and remember, eternal torment, hell, damnation, did not enter into the writings of the bible until at least the third century, when latin came into the picture.  These were not messages of the early authors.  It's really easy to see how through fear, people have become brainwashed into thinking they can say a few words, have an emotional experience, and then judge whether their neighbors are saved or not.  Having been a Christian for 23 years, I am now 57, I can see how I suffered needlessly because of the types of judgements Christians uses to determine whether someone else is going to heaven.  How utterly ludicrous!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't understand the topic title either, unless it's indirect point, is that Jesus came for nothing if it was not to claim the right to throw people into an eternal hell. Which is, essentially what ET'ers have been taught, if you think about it.  :sigh:

[shawn]

imo what makes no sense to me is that if the mainstream church is correct only around 10% (and that is the high estimate) of humanity will be saved, to me that is a pitiful return on any effort.

The first thought i have on the op is that Jesus did not come to save us from "hell", He came to save us from the wages of sin. which is DEATH

According to the scriptures this will be the last enemy to be destroyed, if their is any that once had life and is not alive at that time then it has not been defeated.

The scriptures tells us all will acknowledge that Christ is Lord and the onlt way to the Father, but the mainstream church teaches that ALL will not come to the knowledge of the truth, in spite of what the scriptures say.

Go figure

Exactly, Jesus came to save us from the wages of sin...which is death.  Without his sacrifice, without belief in Him we ALL die.  I'm not sure why some have to be sacrificed to validate the sacrifice of Christ.  Why is mainstream Christianity bent on this particular viewpoint?  Why must most of humanity die, seperated, or burned eternally in order for Christ's sacrifice to be valid and meaningful?

[legoman]

imo what makes no sense to me is that if the mainstream church is correct only around 10% (and that is the high estimate) of humanity will be saved, to me that is a pitiful return on any effort.

The first thought i have on the op is that Jesus did not come to save us from "hell", He came to save us from the wages of sin. which is DEATH

According to the scriptures this will be the last enemy to be destroyed, if their is any that once had life and is not alive at that time then it has not been defeated.

The scriptures tells us all will acknowledge that Christ is Lord and the onlt way to the Father, but the mainstream church teaches that ALL will not come to the knowledge of the truth, in spite of what the scriptures say.

Go figure

Exactly, Jesus came to save us from the wages of sin...which is death.  Without his sacrifice, without belief in Him we ALL die.  I'm not sure why some have to be sacrificed to validate the sacrifice of Christ.  Why is mainstream Christianity bent on this particular viewpoint?  Why must most of humanity die, seperated, or burned eternally in order for Christ's sacrifice to be valid and meaningful?

Maybe this has something do with our finite human way of thinking?

We regularly think about people doing well on tests if they get 80%, 90%, whatever.  We congratulate on how someone saved a bunch of people from a fire.  Or how we are saving more and more people from cancer.  Or whatever.

But its never 100%.  If something is 100%, who cares?  We don't even need to mention it.  It must have been too easy.

Imagine every kid in a certain high school gets 100% on every test.  REALLY?  Must have been cheating or it must have been too easy for them.  So its not worth anything.

See the human reasoning?

Yet when we say Jesus will save 100%... hmmm...  :dontknow:

[thinktank]

The problem is that UR says there is no hell, but yet also says there is a hell. It can be a bit confusing for newcomers, I guess we call it a temp Hell = THELL but I guess hell for most people means fire torture but hell for URist is TEMP pain for x amount of time in LOF. But there is also the question of hades or the underworld for the dead, where Jesus is supposed to have gone for 3 days, which in ET circles is also called Hell and then we have another hell, which is hell on earth. No wonder there is so much confusion in the church, it takes a month to understand terminology  :laughing7:

[Nathan]

Yes, Jesus ransomed all by coming in the flesh.  He paid the price, bore our sins, saved us from death - spiritual and literal.  There will be a resurrection! and consummation!

I believe the Holy Spirit has to do the cleansing before anyone is clean.  Does that happen from the outside, or the inside?  I believe the Holy Spirit convicts (behold I stand at the door and knock) gives faith to believe (that not of yourselves) then enters and cleanses (the inside of the cup). 

I don't see the Holy Spirit leaving someone after taking up residence.  In the OT the Holy Spirit came by visitation, for specific times and purposes.  The Comfortor has now come!

And,

"He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it."

"We are predestined in Him for good works."

I've read that being sealed in Bible days was a binding legal transaction;  similar to "it is finished - [the debt is] paid in full";

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise...Eph. 1:13

Each in his own order.

That's pretty good jabcat  :thumbsup:

You said the HS never enters a unclean vessel. Let's not argue about that.
whitewings

That sounds different interpretation now that I look at it twice. What I mean is that the holy spirit does not enter an unbeliever ,e.g king Herod, but I think does enter someone like Peter, and stays even after denying the lord three times, even though the spirit was not yet given at that time, I give this example for the time being to show that a sinfull christian still retains the spirit even if they are unclean, but does not enter a non beliver of christ, otherwise the whole world would be a christian or at least would feel more drawn towards God.

No intent to argue here at all but from a kingdom perspective (first is last, least is greatest) I really believe that the Holy Spirit enters ONLY unclean vessels . . . that's how He then can lead us through the purification process in this world.  He doesn't "enter" clean vessels because He's the one that cleaned them in the first place.  The patterns Jesus left was that those that saw themselves as clean had no interest in attending the banquet, but it was those who'd been tossed by the wayside . . .the ones trying to drink their sorrows away, the ones turning to alternative fixes to get a high out of life, "those" are the ones he brought to his table . . .they weren't clean . . .but they were once they entered the Father's house!!

[Molly]

Nathan, that's an interesting point.  Jesus told the Pharisees they were clean on the outside but full of everything unclean on the inside.

I'm wondering about who/what cleans out the inside, because isn't that what Jesus was doing during his ministry?  He said if I sweep the house clean and the demons return and find an empty house they will call all their friends to move in and it will be worse for you.

So--I'm wondering if Jesus cleans the house and then the Holy Spirit can move in...?

[thinktank]

I thought the blood would accomplish the cleansing.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

The law says
When a man sin they will be atoned by sacrificing ramb without blemish to cleanse their sins

Holy spirit given after Jesus was glorified, to those that waited and endured at pentecoast a rushing sound came in and they were filled with the holy ghost

The holy ghost was not yet given, says somewhere in NT

I think the old test saints maybe, I'm not so sure but maybe they could get the holy ghost e.g king David because of that whole animal sacrifice thingy they had there and that blood cleansed them to a degree, to allow Holy Spirit to come in and give them revelations etc, but maybe the holy ghost popped in for lunch gave them some revelation, it might have smelled a bit in their house so the spirit leaves. But with us the blood cleanses our temple, the spirit, knocks we open the door and we have lunch, but the spirit decides to stay because we are now married in a sense, living together, because we follow Christ.
:2c:

I think your saying though that the Holy Spirit convict people of sin, this is what Jesus said, that the Holy  spirit would convict people of sin, of judgment because the prince of this world is cast out.

I agree that the spirit does convict and draw people to Christ, but I'm not sure if we agree on the method. I see the spirit on the outside knocking on the believers door, maybe a person says something and it convicts their heart, after all I think more than often we feel convicted when a person, points out our flaws or mistake and then we feel maybe we need help and come to the church or Christ for help. I myself was a christian for a very long time before I was filled with the Holy Spirit, the christian life changed, from mere head knowledge, to more of an experience of love.