Before Birth?

[Molly]

we are SONs in the Making -

And, we are also light in a dark world until Jesus returns, vessels carrying the Word.



Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

[jabcat]

Amen!

[thinktank]

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me,

Jeremiah is talking about Jesus here.  Jesus comes to him and tells him these things.

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

"I knew" [thee]

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.


Jesus tells him that he was acquainted with him before he formed him in the belly of his mother.

This is not reincarnation. Reincarnation presumes returning again and again in different forms.

But, Jesus 'knew' Jeremiah.

The verse says before you entered the womb I sanctified thee

If Jeremiah was perfect, before entering the womb there is no need for sanctification. But because he sinned before entering the womb, either as a spirit being who fell with satan in Rev 12 drew the host with his tail, or he sinned as a human being that existed before Jeremiahs vessel, thus Jesus knew him before he became Jeremiah and had to sanctify him and ordain him to be a prophet to the nations. Does God choose any old fool? Do you know that the apostle Paul was ordained an apostle from birth also.  I think he choose Jeremiah because in his previous life, God trusted him with something, and thus God, decides to trust him as a prophet to the nations and sanctifies him before entering the womb. If he was not a sinner before entering the womb then why sanctify him before entering the mothers womb?

[thinktank]

Up until recently I also accepted Jer 1:5  `Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'  To mean

That we were before we were as a spirit. The plate on the front of my car reads "Psalm 90:3" I believe Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
I am a "RE" believer. To say that we are spirits I agree for He is the "Father of spirits" Heb. 12:9

I contend that we interchange the word "spirit, soul, and breath, even life and wind" to mean the same thing.  I believe we have to understand how and when those words are used.  In Gen. 1:2  it speaks of the "S" pirit of God when we read in Gen. 2:7 we see that it was the "breath of life" that was breathed; now unless I do not understand in Gen.1:30 we have that same "breath of life" in ALL of His creatures and creation. For a living creature is a living soul, breathing creature; this is the life breath.
Eve is the "mother of all living," but that life is not "The Life The Living" that we recieve from Jesus which/who is Spirit.
I believe that the word "spirit" in Ecc. should read "breath" see H7307/06 and this is the breath of life, not necessarily the "spirit." I have found that when the word spirit is used and is speaking directly to or of Jehovah it is capitalized. We are dealing with the word "wind," emphized.
Job 38:3 Belt up your loins now like a master; I shall ask of you, and you inform Me.
Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell if you know with understanding.
Job had no answer, so he was not there right?
But it is this verse that truly caused me to see from a different way. (ASV)  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.
The First man is earthy, natural, a living soul (not spirit) the Second man is of heaven, SPIRIT(UAL) Jesus said that "we must be born from above" that tell me we are not born of the heaven/spirit.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

Micah, I kind of see this the same way you do.

Molly said "we were chosen in him before the world began". It also says that God knew us before the world began. Isn't it because he made plans and forsaw everything before the creation? Not that we have always existed. It is mentioned a few times that God told Moses to do such and such according to the pattern he gave him.  If I am going to make something I usually make a pattern first, or at least have in my mind the final result of whatever it is I am making.

Something I just thought of. If we have always existed with God then we have immortality dwelling in us.

If everyone goes back to God when they die, why did Jesus resurrect Lazarus from the grave, was his spirit called down from heaven? What about Samuel? Samuel said "why have you disquited me, to BRING ME UP"? If the spirit goes on to be with God, why wasn't he called down from there?

CHB

Maybe because Samuel was waiting in sheol until the time of his reincarnation. Maybe that's why God does not want us praying to the dead, because it might interrupt the reincarnation process.

[micah7:9]

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me,

Jeremiah is talking about Jesus here.  Jesus comes to him and tells him these things.

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

"I knew" [thee]

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.


Jesus tells him that he was acquainted with him before he formed him in the belly of his mother.

This is not reincarnation. Reincarnation presumes returning again and again in different forms.

But, Jesus 'knew' Jeremiah.

If...I am going to understand what you are saying here  5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Then what we have is sexual intercourse,  should we take "yada" from Gen 4:1  And the man knew Eve his wife, and she conceiveth and beareth Cain, and saith, `I have gotten a man by Jehovah;'

Also just what was Paul telling us 1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
If you say we were spirits first?

[thinktank]

 Also just what was Paul telling us 1Co 15:46  Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
If you say we were spirits first?
micah

you forgot to add body  :grin:

[jabcat]

Re: 'body' in the passage;  I wonder if this scripture is speaking of our lives here, in this realm.  The context being "in this life", we have a body of dust, planted in the ground, then we are resurrected and take on a spiritual body.  Maybe not addressing anything prior to our being lowered here?   :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Further thought;  I don't think this passage can be used as a catch-all, completely over-arching principle, because Jesus or God were not first natural then spiritual.  Seems context/useage is important.   :2c:

Now, knowing exactly what that context always is may be a challenge!   :grin:

[micah7:9]

Further thought;  I don't think this passage can be used as a catch-all, completely over-arching principle, because Jesus or God were not first natural then spiritual.  Seems context/useage is important.   :2c:

Now, knowing exactly what that context always is may be a challenge!   :grin:

I dont believe what is said by Paul to be a catch all, but it certainly is "the" principal to what Paul said. Besides the Bible is not a book written on the beginning of God who is Jehovah the Existing One...I AM. John 4:24 " God is Spirit."
Context
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:46  but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of heaven;
1Co 15:48  as is the earthy, such are also the earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly;
1Co 15:49  and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly.

[jabcat]

I think some do look at it as a catch-all, and I've sort of taken it in that way in the past when people have said it, but again, Jesus and God didn't start as natural, so in my limited view, it can't include everything. 

Anyway, maybe I'm missing it Bro. micah, but doesn't the context of this verse start with 'sown'?  Not necessarily addressing anything before that?   

[micah7:9]

Sown and raised. Now Jesus was spirit first, then natual, then spirit, but He is Spirit. God is Spirit.  Are we not talking apples and oranges?

but since you caused me to look this is very interesting,  sown G4687 speirō Probably strengthened from G4685 (through the idea of extending); to scatter, that is, sow
G4685 spaō  spah'-o A primary verb; to draw: - draw (out). I thought the "draw" to be very thought provoking.

1Co 15:35  But some one will say, `How do the dead rise?
1Co 15:36  unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die;
1Co 15:37  and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain, it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others,
1Co 15:38  and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
1Co 15:40  and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
1Co 15:41  one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
1Co 15:43  it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
1Co 15:45  so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
1Co 15:46  but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

[jabcat]

Like I said, I'm not completely sure on this topic.  I just see reasons to think "very well could be".  :bigGrin:    I remembered J. Preston Eby's Law of Circularity too, which is an interesting read.  i.e., all begins with God, all "goes away", all returns to its starting point.

To my understanding, it seems to fit well with God having our spirits, then "lowering us into this condition" for "mankind to have an experience of evil", then reconcile us back to Him all the better for it.  Seems to me that helps explain this experience we call life.  But again, I very well could be missing or misunderstanding something.  Lots of mysteries.   :2c:

Bottom line for me, God knows, He's nothing but good, and I need to trust and love Him.   :thumbsup:

[Molly]

1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

It is sown a natural body...

IT is sown a natural body...

What is sown?  A seed. What seed?


Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Luke 8:11
"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.

[micah7:9]

Yes.

[thinktank]

1Co 15:36  unwise! thou--what thou dost sow is not quickened except it may die;
1Co 15:37  and that which thou dost sow, not the body that shall be dost thou sow, but bare grain, it may be of wheat, or of some one of the others,
1Co 15:38  and God doth give to it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.
1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
1Co 15:40  and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
1Co 15:41  one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.
1Co 15:42  So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

When we incarnated or sown, we died, we were no longer spirits, we became flesh and God hath given it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.

[micah7:9]

When we are incarnated and sown??? Just how do you aquaint the two words?

[thinktank]

I think I remember Jesus being incarnated. He was sown.

I have another powerful scripture which might settle or at least open up possibilities on this topic, if I can find it for you. But a lot depends on whether you dislike the idea, because if you do, then we can argue scripture all day.

Are you open to the possibility?

[Molly]

When we incarnated or sown, we died, we were no longer spirits, we became flesh and God hath given it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.

Then you have ones like Jeremiah and Paul, set apart in the womb.

Give us your powerful scripture, TT.

[micah7:9]

When we incarnated or sown, we died, we were no longer spirits, we became flesh and God hath given it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its proper body.

Then you have ones like Jeremiah and Paul, set apart in the womb.

Give us your powerful scripture, TT.

Yea...bring it forth.

[thinktank]

Hebrews 2:14

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil


Now Most believe that Jesus pre existed, and here in this verse, he partaking of flesh is compared with our partaking of flesh.