Before Birth?

[claypot]

Before I formed  thee  in the belly I  knew   thee jer 1.5

anyone have any other Scriptural input or thoughts suggesting we were with God before our conceptions?

cp

[jabcat]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - "spirit REturns to God who gave it". 

[jabcat]

Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.  Eph 1:4

[Taffy]

Before I formed  thee  in the belly I  knew   thee jer 1.5

anyone have any other Scriptural input or thoughts suggesting we were with God before our conceptions?

cp

We cant return to a Place we Never Been Claypot  :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Before I formed  thee  in the belly I  knew   thee jer 1.5

anyone have any other Scriptural input or thoughts suggesting we were with God before our conceptions?

cp

We cant return to a Place we Never Been Claypot  :icon_flower:

:thumbsup:!!!

[claypot]

great stuff. i seem to remember a thread on this subject but can't locate it. can anyone point the way? thanks again.

cp

[jabcat]

maybe this one? 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/returning_father_7794.msg90679.html#msg90679

[CHB]

I wonder what kind of form or function we supposedly have after we return to God?

CHB

[claypot]

very helpful jab, thanks.

hey being this is my thread maybe i can diverge from the path a bit and ask what you all think about the ability humans have in the choice making department. do u think God has given us an illusion that we are in control and as we mature we c that it is He that is control?

cp

[claypot]

I wonder what kind of form or function we supposedly have after we return to God?

CHB

maybe reading about Jesus after He ascended gives us a glimpse of how we at least start our more spiritual journey.

cp

[micah7:9]

Up until recently I also accepted Jer 1:5  `Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'  To mean

That we were before we were as a spirit. The plate on the front of my car reads "Psalm 90:3" I believe Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
I am a "RE" believer. To say that we are spirits I agree for He is the "Father of spirits" Heb. 12:9

I contend that we interchange the word "spirit, soul, and breath, even life and wind" to mean the same thing.  I believe we have to understand how and when those words are used.  In Gen. 1:2  it speaks of the "S" pirit of God when we read in Gen. 2:7 we see that it was the "breath of life" that was breathed; now unless I do not understand in Gen.1:30 we have that same "breath of life" in ALL of His creatures and creation. For a living creature is a living soul, breathing creature; this is the life breath.
Eve is the "mother of all living," but that life is not "The Life The Living" that we recieve from Jesus which/who is Spirit.
I believe that the word "spirit" in Ecc. should read "breath" see H7307/06 and this is the breath of life, not necessarily the "spirit." I have found that when the word spirit is used and is speaking directly to or of Jehovah it is capitalized. We are dealing with the word "wind," emphized.
Job 38:3 Belt up your loins now like a master; I shall ask of you, and you inform Me.
Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell if you know with understanding.
Job had no answer, so he was not there right?
But it is this verse that truly caused me to see from a different way. (ASV)  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.
The First man is earthy, natural, a living soul (not spirit) the Second man is of heaven, SPIRIT(UAL) Jesus said that "we must be born from above" that tell me we are not born of the heaven/spirit.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Molly]

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
--Eph 1:4

[micah7:9]

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
--Eph 1:4

Amen!

[CHB]

Up until recently I also accepted Jer 1:5  `Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'  To mean

That we were before we were as a spirit. The plate on the front of my car reads "Psalm 90:3" I believe Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
I am a "RE" believer. To say that we are spirits I agree for He is the "Father of spirits" Heb. 12:9

I contend that we interchange the word "spirit, soul, and breath, even life and wind" to mean the same thing.  I believe we have to understand how and when those words are used.  In Gen. 1:2  it speaks of the "S" pirit of God when we read in Gen. 2:7 we see that it was the "breath of life" that was breathed; now unless I do not understand in Gen.1:30 we have that same "breath of life" in ALL of His creatures and creation. For a living creature is a living soul, breathing creature; this is the life breath.
Eve is the "mother of all living," but that life is not "The Life The Living" that we recieve from Jesus which/who is Spirit.
I believe that the word "spirit" in Ecc. should read "breath" see H7307/06 and this is the breath of life, not necessarily the "spirit." I have found that when the word spirit is used and is speaking directly to or of Jehovah it is capitalized. We are dealing with the word "wind," emphized.
Job 38:3 Belt up your loins now like a master; I shall ask of you, and you inform Me.
Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell if you know with understanding.
Job had no answer, so he was not there right?
But it is this verse that truly caused me to see from a different way. (ASV)  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.
The First man is earthy, natural, a living soul (not spirit) the Second man is of heaven, SPIRIT(UAL) Jesus said that "we must be born from above" that tell me we are not born of the heaven/spirit.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

Micah, I kind of see this the same way you do.

Molly said "we were chosen in him before the world began". It also says that God knew us before the world began. Isn't it because he made plans and forsaw everything before the creation? Not that we have always existed. It is mentioned a few times that God told Moses to do such and such according to the pattern he gave him.  If I am going to make something I usually make a pattern first, or at least have in my mind the final result of whatever it is I am making.

Something I just thought of. If we have always existed with God then we have immortality dwelling in us.

If everyone goes back to God when they die, why did Jesus resurrect Lazarus from the grave, was his spirit called down from heaven? What about Samuel? Samuel said "why have you disquited me, to BRING ME UP"? If the spirit goes on to be with God, why wasn't he called down from there?

CHB

[thinktank]

That's another reason why reincarnation could be true.

If we did preexist we have completely forgotten who we are, almost as if over thousands of years we have forgotten our past.

If for example we were with God only a few decades ago (before we were born in the womb) then,  most people would be christains or should be in theory, because they would think "I miss God, let's catchup on old times"

But people are ignorant of God and his existence, almost like they have forgotten him.

The scripture also says that Jesus returns at the end, almost as if that this God person has been hidden from us for thousands of years, not just the human race, but to us as individuals.

[micah7:9]

I dont give thought to the reincarntion reasoning.

"Something I just thought of. If we have always existed with God then we have immortality dwelling in us. " CHB
That is a good thought as well and we do not as I see it.

One other reason i have for my thoughts is that the God of Gen.1 is still preparing His creation. If i understand correctly John said
  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; He is still speaking and Jesus   It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life. (Jo. 6:63)
So that until The Word is finished speaking there has been nothing but what we see; and what do we see ? 

Jesus saith to him, `So long time am I with you, and thou hast not known me, Philip? he who hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how dost thou say, Shew to us the Father?

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

[jabcat]

very helpful jab, thanks.

hey being this is my thread maybe i can diverge from the path a bit and ask what you all think about the ability humans have in the choice making department. do u think God has given us an illusion that we are in control and as we mature we c that it is He that is control?

cp

Thanks cp.  Ever see a know-it-all?  I've been that person much too often.   IMO, that's a hint.

Because the more we truly mature in grace and knowledge, the more we realize how little we know and how totally dependent upon Him we are.  In Him we live and move and have our being.   :thumbsup:

[legoman]

do u think God has given us an illusion that we are in control and as we mature we c that it is He that is control?

cp

Profound!   :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

. do u think God has given us an illusion that we are in control and as we mature we c that it is He that is control?

:icon_flower:
The Illusion will always be entertained within the Carnal Mind Claypot - such is the EGO- :mblush:

[Molly]

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me,

Jeremiah is talking about Jesus here.  Jesus comes to him and tells him these things.

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

"I knew" [thee]

H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'
A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.


Jesus tells him that he was acquainted with him before he formed him in the belly of his mother.

This is not reincarnation. Reincarnation presumes returning again and again in different forms.

But, Jesus 'knew' Jeremiah.

[CHB]

What about these verses? it says the natural is first.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
"We shall bear", not 'we have borne'.

A question: if we were spirit beings before the world was created what was the need to go through a transition from spiritual, to  physical to get back to spiritual again? Doesn't make any sense. Who are we, time travelers?

CHB

[Molly]

Adam was formed from clay and then given the breath of God and placed in the garden where he walked and talked with God.

He was then driven out of the garden.

So, in his driven out state --what was he?

If we read that completely metaphorically as a template for each one of us, what would it tell us?

That where and how we are living is not our natural state?

Why did the shepherd kings live in tents?  Because they were looking forward to a city made by God.

So the natural is clay, and that is first, but then what goes into the vessel--what is that?  The natural is just a vessel, a wineskin, for holding the wine.

And even that wineskin will be changed.

[jabcat]

Dear C, I see it as we were lowered, to have an experience of evil - so we would "know"/appreciate when reconciled back to God.

In the other "pre" thread I also said several times though, that I'm not sure what we knew or experienced when with God before.  In fact, I'm not sure about the topic, I just see some reasons to think it could be so.

I also like several things I've heard;  Card's vision of spirit beings joyfully "accepting" their role in this temporal life.  Also, Ernest Martin's teachings (with Biblical references) of roles here being chosen in the heavenlies by "lot".  Then thirdly, WW's story about parents overhearing on the baby monitor a little boy talking to his baby sister, saying, "remind me of Father, I'm starting to forget".  Granted, all of these things need to line up with the scriptures, and right now it appears that's the challenge - what's the correct interpretation.  Personally not sure, but I reasons for possibility.   :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

A question: if we were spirit beings before the world was created what was the need to go through a transition from spiritual, to  physical to get back to spiritual again? Doesn't make any sense. Who are we, time travelers?

Who are we?
Jesus uses words like dead--let the dead bury their dead.

He uses words like asleep--Lazarus is asleep.  Let's go wake him up!

Who are we?

We are, then, the walking dead, sleep-walkers.


Ephesians 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

[Taffy]

What about these verses? it says the natural is first.

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
"We shall bear", not 'we have borne'.

A question: if we were spirit beings before the world was created what was the need to go through a transition from spiritual, to  physical to get back to spiritual again? Doesn't make any sense. Who are we, time travelers?

CHB

Hi CHB
TY for your prayers while being away :icon_flower:

r 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The purpose of the Garden was for US to learn\ then discern  both Good and Evil - It was No mistake that Eve sinned -

How can One appreciate GOOD with out Evil?
Light without Darkness - etc - Opposites are needed in the process of LEARNING and understanding -

we are SONs in the Making -

Rom 8:18 ¶ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 
Rom 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.