Nazareth and Bethlehem did not exist in the time of Jesus

[reFORMer]

As gregarious as I am, I have over the years had very few friends.  Since I've lived here for almost 6 years I have no one who stops by to share about the things of God.  I also know none who's house I can stop in at and share in Jesus and His word beyond the most elementary things.  I have very few contacts by telephone too.  At one point more than a decade ago I had to change course.  It took me being isolated a lot and reading commentaries to get too academic.  I had too many answers for too many questions that nobody was asking.  Too bad, even a right knowledge of the elementary principles, the foundations of our faith, is not of interest to many called "Christian."  Of them, more are outright hostile than those demonstrating a seekers heart.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: "Ain't" it the truth....

[WhiteWings]

"Can anything good come from Nazareth?"

A title?

Nazareth was also a name given to the Essene. One of the 3 sects o that time (Pharisees, Saducees, Essene)
Many scholars believe Jesus (an John the Baptist) was thaught by the Essene or likely was one Himself.
Jesus is also likely/possibly "The evil priest" of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
The Pharisees had added lots of manmade stuff to the religion. The Saducees were not perfect either. The Essene possible had it all right. Not exactly because they were so extremely strickt even high priests were liberal people.....
They also believed their (Essene) religion was for Jews only. Jesus didn't agree as you know. So He broke up with them. According to them He was false/evil priest.
Anyway the Essene were a small sect (4000 spread over the whole region). Usually not very loved by non-Essene because of their extreme behavior.
Now to the answer:

"Can anything good come from Nazareth?"
Should/could read
"Can anything good come from (the) Essene?"

A few minutes after this post I wanted to edit it a bit. But I couldn't connect to TM for hours....
There are a lot of different views among the scholars. Or I don't understand all views fully. Another thing is t'hat I don't own every book on the subject. I often try to harvest little bits of info based on the many book reviews. Sometimes contradicting views in scholarship are because one or more views are simply wrong. Or just not not complete. Or in my case the reviews lack some depth. But quite often the missing link is found.
I wrote Jesus was part of the Essene sect and other Essene called Him a wicked Priest.
It seems that's only partly correct. Jesus was an Essene. Some say the hight priest of them. But the Essenes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls were basicly at war with other Essene sects.
The Essenes of Jesus had a humanist peaceful view. The DSS sect was an extremely fundamentalist split off. A lot of their idea's sound very Calvinistic. Salavation was only for the elect and obviously they were that elect.
Some scholars say the DSS have nothing to do with Jesus because the scrolls are from even before Jesus was born. Others say they are a direct reference to Him.
Back to your question.... Also according to some scholars when someone from the public asked a trick question to Jesus it were often the Essene from the other sect (they got a different name)
They spit on that whole other sect as heretics. So they simply said nobody from your sect is worth listening to.
I still have to sort this part out:
The towns and titles are confusing because there are so many views and many sort blend together
The Essene had a Priest of Rightousness and they ridiculled the Wicked Priest (Jesus)
The DSS Essene means or they call themselfs: Childeren of rightousness, Childeren of the Light.
So possible the sect of Jesus was Nazareth as in Prince of the world/clouds/etc
Nazareth is possibly derived from Essene.
To make it more confusing some say Narareth means Mazzaroth (Zodiac)
Bethlem means house of bread. There were many Bethlehems. It were towns with a high tech mill that could grind wheat to very fine flour (most couldn't)
The woman in the star sign (Zodiac) Virgo/Virgin holds wheat. So that's also called the house of bread.
So it's very well possible when we read "Jesus was born in Bethlem" it simply means He was born at the time of Virgo.
And that links exactly to:
^WNTRev 12
1 And a great marvel was seen in Heaven-- a woman who was robed with the sun and had the moon under her feet, and had also a wreath of stars round her head, was with child,
The verse describes an exact star/planet setting that occured at the hour of His birth. The woman was Virgo. The woman was the house of bread.
So basicly Jesus could have been born in the center of Rome but still in Bethlehem.
Virgo=Bethlehem
Also remember this verse: ^YLTJohn 6
48 I am the bread of the life;
So that all fits very nicely. (just my guesswork)
But yes Q, I'm aware of this problematic verse:
^YLTMatt 2
1 And Jesus having been born in Beth-Lehem of Judea, in the days of Herod the king, lo, mages from the east came to Jerusalem,

Star sign Virgo is not part of Judea.
But equally problematic is non existing towns. (according to a 2nd century church father he lived 30 miles from the place where the town should have been but he never found it)

My conclusion:
I don't have one yet. But the Bible seems to be very fond of star signs and symbolism. So even if problematic I feel the title/star signs are a good possibility.
And of course if the town existed Jesus could have been born in that town and under the star sign.
Btw the stable he was born is a possibly mistranslation. He was born in the guestroom of a family member :dontknow:
Anyway a good topic near Christmas  :laughing7: (not being His time of birth but the arrival of the Magi)

:bgdance:

[jabcat]

Very interesting.

[WhiteWings]

A Christian bashing site; but still some good info: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html

To be more exact the Nazarians were possible a sect that separated from the The Essenes,
Essene means: Children of the Light or Physician according to other scholars.
^YLTLuke 4
23 And he said unto them, `Certainly ye will say to me this simile, Physician, heal thyself; as great things as we heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country;'

:Chinscratch:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good work as always, WW.  :happygrin:  I too, read somewhere about a lot of his discourses being to tear down Essene beliefs. We western minded, always assumed it was just the Pharisees He cut to the bone, but apparently He was an equal opportunity doctrine destroyer.  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

I too, read somewhere about a lot of his discourses being to tear down Essene beliefs.

I partly agree with that. Or I should say my current understanding is different.
Let me start that not even one sect was completly right. Pharisees for example had a ok belief but they added all kind of manmade things. Mainly to get rich and powerful. All Essene sects were as simple and poor as Jesus. They lived by the letter.
But there were 2 Essene sects. The one that wrote the DSS. They lost all logic in applying their laws. An example is teh good Samaritan and the ox (?) that was fallen in the ditch. The DDS sect put rules above life. The other sect was more humane. They did bent the rules a bit. Some say Jesus was the leader of that Essene sect that possibly was (also) named the Nazaroth (or similar). Jesus didn't promote working on Sabbath but thaught saving the life of an animal or man is a exeption Father smiles upon.

[WhiteWings]

^YLTMic 5
2 And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth--to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity.


This at first may sound like an other problematic verse.
The whole world at that time was good at astronomy. The signs they also partly agreed upon.
I already mentioned Jesus was born under starsign Virgo=Virgin=House of bread=Bethlehem.
But over a year later the Magi arrived at the home of the young child Jesus. They followed a star. (You need to read star as star and/or planet)
There is constelation Leo=Lion=Judah
There is also a king star named Regulus=Ruler IIRC.
Stars move around so at a certain time Regulus was between the pawns of Leo. Then it moved out of it.
So the ruler/king came out of lion/Judah

^KJVGen 49
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shilo come ; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be .

That's roughly it. Some details are missing but not important right now I think.

Combined with my

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Don't have time right now to pursue as I have an appt. to go to, but your comment above about the ox falling in the ditch, has deeper significance, it just hit me. Aleph = ox.....never thought about that before..... :mshock:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Don't have time right now to pursue as I have an appt. to go to, but your comment above about the ox falling in the ditch, has deeper significance, it just hit me. Aleph = ox.....never thought about that before..... :mshock:

:Chinscratch: Looks like a whole new topic because the verse says "ass or ox". But one translation "son or ox" :umnick:

[shawn]

:cloud9: Personally, I love digging, I love following His "rabbit trails". Always find something I didn't know before. It's truly inexhaustable riches, no matter what direction you go in.

I would like to clarify something.  I love to "dig" and explore.  I love the little nuggets of truth I get along the way.  I find some of the Greek and Hebrew translational issues tough for me, but have done some research outside this board to confirm what I have been told on these subjects.  I have no issues with Gehenna, sheol, hades.  I do have more questions about forever and eternal that I have not found complete peace with.

With that said, where I draw the line is addressing every atheistic rambling about scriptures being falsified, Jesus not existing etc.  For me, I choose to use my time in other ways.  If others find that to bear fruit for them, more power to them.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree..... :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

 :bigGrin:I agree :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

With that said, where I draw the line is addressing every atheistic rambling about scriptures being falsified, Jesus not existing etc.

You would be suprised how helpful those ramblings are.
The evidence that they use to support their case is often good; but at the same time is really helpful.

From a non atheist site: http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=4
Summary. There is zero evidence Nazareth existed before Constantine founded it.
No archeological evidence.
It's not in Roman records.
It's in historical records that decribe the whole area during war.
It's in rabbinial records that list even tiny towns. Nazareth was a large town because it had a synagoge.

But in fact, there is no Old Testament prophecy to the effect that a Messiah will come from a place called Nazareth (which is another in the long list of errors that the writers of the Gospel of Matthew made about Old Testament prophecies). The closest we come to any such description is a passage in Judges (13:5) where Samson's mother is warned: "...the child shall be a Nazarite [nazirarios in Greek, nazir in Hebrew] unto God from the womb, and he shall begin to deliver Israel; out of the hand of the Philistines." The words Iesou Nazarene (Nazareneus) refer to the fact that Jesus was a Nazarene (or Nazarean), not to the fact that he came from Nazareth. To indicate that Jesus came from a place called Nazareth, the correct wording would have been Nazarethenos or Nazarethaios.



The synagoge He preached in was iin Capernaum
A large city. Archelogy shows clearly there have been 2 Temples.

^YLTMark 5 1 And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gadarenes,
==> That's the area Capernaum is in

^YLTMark 2 1 And again he entered into Capernaum, after some days, and it was heard that he is in the house,

It was the home town of James, John, Peter and Andrew.

[Green-Arrow]

Origen's not very reliable on some things, plus most of his writings don't exist any more, or at least for the general public if anything further's been found.  Origen was a bit of a speculator.  Bit of a UR version of John Hagee.  Surprisingly right and profound on some things very occasionally once in a blue moon, otherwise just mouthy and a bit annoying.  Also, difficult to say towns didn't exist in Jesus's day when the general areas were known perhaps going as far back as Numbers or Genesis.  I've never bumped into credible archeologists that have worked in those areas within the last dozen years or so that said those cities were built so late -- although, as with many other cities, including cities to the present day, it's possible to find layers that are much older than other areas, and perhaps this is where some of the confusion is at.  All of us live in cities with buildings and perhaps even streets that are less than 20yrs old and other parts of town that are well over a hundred years old.  Ancient world was no different and some cities have thousands of layers of civilization, and minimally Bethlehem is one of 'em, with certainty, though I've seen the same stuff kicked around about Nazareth as a term for the Essenes, Enochian Judaism, et. al.

[Green-Arrow]

I was listening to Joseph Prince the other day on tv and he was tying the Inn that Joseph and Mary couldn't book a room in all of the way back to the time of David as David's own father's house that he gave to the son of someone that had helped him and his men when Absalom had done his little whatever, and that place was an Inn by Jeremiah's day; mentions the very same dude and his abode.  Next day he ties the property not only back to the story of Ruth but into the book of Numbers.  So like Moriah, it appears to have likewise been set apart land for centuries and centuries before these prophecies were to be given in Micah and elsewhere and then later fulfilled in the New Testament!  Point being, that as Jerusalem was Salem in the book of Genesis and Moriah wound up being on the outskirts of where God had met Abraham through Melchizedek, and was later known as Golgotha, perhaps the same kind of evolution of the name took place for what we now know as Bethlehem and Nazareth.  But at the same time, David and his father Jesse were known as Bethlehemites, weren't they?

[redhotmagma]

I was listening to Joseph Prince the other day on tv and he was tying the Inn that Joseph and Mary couldn't book a room in all of the way back to the time of David as David's own father's house that he gave to the son of someone that had helped him and his men when Absalom had done his little whatever, and that place was an Inn by Jeremiah's day; mentions the very same dude and his abode.  Next day he ties the property not only back to the story of Ruth but into the book of Numbers.  So like Moriah, it appears to have likewise been set apart land for centuries and centuries before these prophecies were to be given in Micah and elsewhere and then later fulfilled in the New Testament!  Point being, that as Jerusalem was Salem in the book of Genesis and Moriah wound up being on the outskirts of where God had met Abraham through Melchizedek, and was later known as Golgotha, perhaps the same kind of evolution of the name took place for what we now know as Bethlehem and Nazareth.  But at the same time, David and his father Jesse were known as Bethlehemites, weren't they?

I don't think moriah and golgotha are the same place.  Moriah is where the temple was built, golgotha is (WW help me out) a few thousand feet? away, its the mount of olives.  Golgotha was where people were determined to be Jews, thus the name the place of the skull [in the literal](counting heads).  Its also where the red heifer was sacrificed. IIRC

[thinktank]

It has just occured to me that isn't this textual criticism?

This thread could be regarded as antibibiblical and antichrist, denying the prophetic word that Christ comes from Bethlehem.

[jabcat]

You have a point.  Maybe it can slip quietly into the night....  :secret:

:bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

I was listening to Joseph Prince the other day on tv and he was tying the Inn that Joseph and Mary couldn't book a room in all of the way back to the time of David as David's own father's house that he gave to the son of someone that had helped him and his men when Absalom had done his little whatever, and that place was an Inn by Jeremiah's day; mentions the very same dude and his abode.  Next day he ties the property not only back to the story of Ruth but into the book of Numbers.  So like Moriah, it appears to have likewise been set apart land for centuries and centuries before these prophecies were to be given in Micah and elsewhere and then later fulfilled in the New Testament!  Point being, that as Jerusalem was Salem in the book of Genesis and Moriah wound up being on the outskirts of where God had met Abraham through Melchizedek, and was later known as Golgotha, perhaps the same kind of evolution of the name took place for what we now know as Bethlehem and Nazareth.  But at the same time, David and his father Jesse were known as Bethlehemites, weren't they?

I don't think moriah and golgotha are the same place.  Moriah is where the temple was built, golgotha is (WW help me out) a few thousand feet? away, its the mount of olives.  Golgotha was where people were determined to be Jews, thus the name the place of the skull [in the literal](counting heads).  Its also where the red heifer was sacrificed. IIRC

All correct. 2000 cubits or 3000 feet. Golgotta was also where Abraham was going to sacrifice his son and God provided a lamb. Golgottha is means skull/head. It's where David counted heads for his army.

[WhiteWings]

It has just occured to me that isn't this textual criticism?

This thread could be regarded as antibibiblical and antichrist, denying the prophetic word that Christ comes from Bethlehem.

It could be regarded as such by people who didn't read this thread and/or don't understand the prophesy.
:laughing7:

[thinktank]

It has just occured to me that isn't this textual criticism?

This thread could be regarded as antibibiblical and antichrist, denying the prophetic word that Christ comes from Bethlehem.

It could be regarded as such by people who didn't read this thread and/or don't understand the prophesy.
:laughing7:

Or perhaps regarded as such with those with discernment.

[WhiteWings]

Or those that claim to have discernment. You can disagree with the conclusion but I would like to see one bit of proof that this thread even hints toward

This thread could be regarded as antibibiblical and antichrist, denying the prophetic word that Christ comes from Bethlehem.

PS: When the Magi brought Jesus presents He was already 15 months old.

[thinktank]

Or those that claim to have discernment. You can disagree with the conclusion but I would like to see one bit of proof that this thread even hints toward

This thread could be regarded as antibibiblical and antichrist, denying the prophetic word that Christ comes from Bethlehem.

PS: When the Magi brought Jesus presents He was already 15 months old.

Your the one posting that bethlehem and Nazareth don't exist, the claim is backed up by plenty of evidence, including posting christian bashing websites to validate some of your claims.

What exactly are you trying to claim?

If Nazareth and Bethlehem did not exist, where was Jesus born, Pluto?

[WhiteWings]

Your the one posting that bethlehem and Nazareth don't exist, the claim is backed up by plenty of evidence, including posting christian bashing websites to validate some of your claims.

What exactly are you trying to claim?

Can't be that hard to figure out if you read the thread title?  :dontknow:

It has just occured to me that isn't this textual criticism?

This thread could be regarded as antibibiblical and antichrist, denying the prophetic word that Christ comes from Bethlehem.

Could be regarded as such; but your view even more so.

If Nazareth and Bethlehem did not exist, where was Jesus born, Pluto?

I have two answers for that TT:
a] Generally speaking: if something isn't clear study it or just accept it as a unknown don't just assume something to ease your mind.
b] I think you didn't read and/or understood this thread. Two words: Constelation Bethlehem.


:bgdance: