UR Can't Have It Both Ways

[WhiteWings]

Hi,

I think we are BEING MADE in his image.

CHB

H8851 (BestLex)
Qal

Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the
"simple" or "causal" action of the root in the active voice.

Examples:
He sat,  he ate,  he went,  he said,  he rose,  he bought

This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.
Perfect

The Perfect expresses a completed action.

1) In reference to time,  such an action may be:

1a) one just completed from the standpoint of the present
"I have come" to tell you the news

1b) one completed in the more or less distant past
in the beginning God "created"
"I was (once) young" and "I have (now) grown old" but
"I have not seen" a righteous man forsaken

1c) one already completed from the point of view of another
past act
God saw everything that "he had made"

1d) one completed from the point of view of another action
yet future
I will draw for thy camels also until "they have done"
drinking

2) The perfect is often used where the present is employed in
English.

2a) in the case of general truths or actions of frequent
occurrence--truths or actions which have been often
experienced or observed
the grass "withereth"
the sparrow "findeth" a house

2b) an action or attitude of the past may be continued into
the present
"I stretch out" my hands to thee
"thou never forsakest" those who seek thee

2c) the perfect of intransitive verbs is used where English
uses the present; The perfect in Hebrew in such a case
emphasises a condition which has come into "complete
existence" and realisation
"I know" thou wilt be king
"I hate" all workers of iniquity

2d) Sometimes in Hebrew,  future events are conceived so
vividly and so realistically that they are regarded as
Having virtually taken place and are described by the
perfect.

2d1) in promises,  threats and language of contracts
the field "give I" thee
and if not,  "I will take it"

2d2) prophetic language
my people "is gone into captivity"
(i.e. shall assuredly go).

Sounds like  a completed action.....

I's the same made as in this verse:
^YLTDeut 9
12 and Jehovah saith unto me, Rise, go down, hasten from this, for thy people hath done corruptly, whom thou hast brought out of Egypt; they have turned aside hastily out of the way which I have commanded them--they have made to themselves a molten thing!

[CHB]

I believe the Hebrew word "image" imeans "shadow". So, we are a shadow of what we are to become just like the laws and everything else was a shadow of what was to be.

God isn't finished with me yet.

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I believe the Hebrew word "image" imeans "shadow". So, we are a shadow of what we are to become just like the laws and everything else was a shadow of what was to be.

God isn't finished with me yet.

CHB

:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[Isaac]

I don't have time to read this thread through, so apologies if I am missing anything, but I'd like to offer two thoughts:



1. Anti-UR people say that FOREVER for the SHEEP has to mean the same as FOREVER for the GOATS (Mt 25). They say that you can't say a word means two different things when there is clearly a mirroring going on. However, they then say that the word ALL in Romans 5 and in many other places ("just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people") means different things in the two instances. So the Anti-URs need to make up their minds - either mirrored words are identical, or they're not. Personally, I would say that they are.

Eschatology is far more clear in Paul than in the Gospels. In the synoptic Gospels especially it can be a bit of a mess. the immediate aion is often confused with the aion to come with the return of Christ, and prophecies regarding the destruction of the temple are also worked in there too, so it's confusing.

Personally, I think that the parable of the sheep and the goats refers to the aion immediately after death and not to the eternity to come with the consummation of all things at the return of Christ.



2. One angle I read recently on aion was the idea that for Jews it had a connotation of 'flowing from God' as it was often a translation of 'olam' in Hebrew. Therefore, maybe the life and the kolasin of Mt 25 are flowing from God - maybe Jesus wasn't trying to put a time frame on them at all, but rather to say something about their nature. Maybe?

[WhiteWings]

Anti-UR people say that FOREVER for the SHEEP has to mean the same as FOREVER for the GOATS (Mt 25). They say that you can't say a word means two different things when there is clearly a mirroring going on.

I don't agree with that ET view but let's use their own reasoning against themself.

First ask them is all people or just a few are sinners that need to be saved. I think they agree all are sinners.
^YLTRom 3
23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--

Then show them this verse.
^YLT1Cor 15
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

Then the word games start. The mirroring is no longer valid. Doesn't all mean all in both sides of the mirror. All can't be all because....
All fine. Either they agree their mirror is a fantasy or that all means all. In that case their mirror is also a fantasy :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

Personally, I think that the parable of the sheep and the goats refers to the aion immediately after death and not to the eternity to come with the consummation of all things at the return of Christ.

Possibly true. Or goats means young sheep.
Part of the problem is that goats are always seen as bad. In drawing the devil is also half goat. But as Leviticus shows goats are equally accepted by God as sacrifice.
^YLTLev 22
27 `When ox or lamb or goat is born, and it hath been seven days under its dam, then from the eighth day and henceforth, it is pleasing for an offering, a fire-offering to Jehovah;

So it at least debunks the idea that goat must mean bad. It's not an unclean animal.

[PaoloNuevo]

2. One angle I read recently on aion was the idea that for Jews it had a connotation of 'flowing from God' as it was often a translation of 'olam' in Hebrew. Therefore, maybe the life and the kolasin of Mt 25 are flowing from God - maybe Jesus wasn't trying to put a time frame on them at all, but rather to say something about their nature. Maybe?

That's also what Thomas Talbott said! ... And I honestly think so.. because eternal life, Zoen Aionion is life associated with the age to come, or life associated by being in God's love..

[lookingup]

Possibly true. Or goats means young sheep.
Part of the problem is that goats are always seen as bad. In drawing the devil is also half goat. But as Leviticus shows goats are equally accepted by God as sacrifice.
YLTLev 22
27 `When ox or lamb or goat is born, and it hath been seven days under its dam, then from the eighth day and henceforth, it is pleasing for an offering, a fire-offering to Jehovah;

So it at least debunks the idea that goat must mean bad. It's not an unclean animal.

WW thanks for that patch of blue sky in my gray sky i am in today