Couldn't It Just Be Wishful Thinking?

[Sally Anne]

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  :2c: on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE

I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker

[WhiteWings]

but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.

True.
But I wonder what would happend if the church switched to a more literal version like YLT, CB or CLV and the pastor still kept giving his ET sermons.
I'm sure at least a few people will notice something on casual reading the passage used in the sermon.
Interpretation of the words of HS can vary. Translation errors can slip in. But slipping in a lot of doctrinal twists is against "...not add, change or take away a single word..."
I think a honest translation would really matter perhaps the ETs don't end as URs but I'm sure a fair percentage becomses ED.

[reFORMer]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hard you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

[WhiteWings]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I guess that's why some verses don't read forever but "world"...

[micah7:9]

but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.

True.
But I wonder what would happend if the church switched to a more literal version like YLT, CB or CLV and the pastor still kept giving his ET sermons.
I'm sure at least a few people will notice something on casual reading the passage used in the sermon.
Interpretation of the words of HS can vary. Translation errors can slip in. But slipping in a lot of doctrinal twists is against "...not add, change or take away a single word..."
I think a honest translation would really matter perhaps the ETs don't end as URs but I'm sure a fair percentage becomses ED.

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

Well said, Amen

[CHB]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

reFORMer,

AMEN!!!
This is the best post I have read in a long time concerning this.  :thumbsup:

CHB

[shawn]

I must agree...terrific post.

[Cardinal]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

:cloud9:  :2thumbs: And few there be that find it.....initially, at least.  :bigGrin: Blessings....

[Quaesitor]

I used to argue for the proper understanding of the Greek eon and Hebrew olam, perhaps because understanding that freed me to believe UR.  But, so many won't understand the difference between the original languages and a translation no matter how hare you try.  Now I find it much more convenient to point out examples of how "forever, eternal, perpetual, and everlasting" are English words you cannot believe in the Bible because they are are applied to things that end after 3 days, a lifetime, 'til "the elements melt with a fervent heat, and the heaven disappear with a loud noise," and so on.

I really don't see that ET is on some kind of similar footing as UR in the Word.  There are only about 2 or 3 references that can be construed to teach ET, but only if you don't take too close of a look at what is or is not said and what is in the original language.  Here's an example which is not matched by anything ET offers:  The angel that announced to the shepherds who were out with their flocks under the beautiful night sky, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to all people!"  Have we gotten it wrong all these years?  Was this a holy angel or a demon?  Should it have been said, "I bring you glad tidings of great joy that shall be to SOME, NOT all people!?"

Here's another from Jesus:  "If the blind lead the blind they shall both fall in a ditch."  I was taught to add:  "And so they were for evermore."  Really, they are there to learn they followed the wrong man and what the way out of the hole they're in."

On and on...Jesus telling us to tell the good news to every creature would mean He's intentionally making us liars since He already knows who is saved and who is damned.  Only the worst possible news is true for the damned (under the ET doctrine.)

So many attributes of God are undermined if we were to believe ET.

It just goes on...many direct sayings of Scripture teach UR.

Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion.

I'll tell you a secret...it's the nobodies who love their fellowmen, who are inebriated with the love of God and are walking in His ways, being made conformable unto the likeness of His death, who will be anointed with the Holy Ghost and power to make the nations obedient to the gospel.

Oh the Glory!

[Sally Anne]

[
Quot:"Mostly I find such expressions as in the OP to be made by those (who comprise about 96.5 % of "Christians") who have not and do not read the Scripture, but for a verse here and there.  Seldom or never do they study something in Scripture.  How to use concordances is not taught in almost all the churches.  They depend on God placing over them as their source of what to believe their Pastors or Priests or Rabbis.  Another point to make here is that those who interpret Scripture for most today, those determining what the mainstream orthodoxy is supposed to be, is something like a rock star.  Their faces are all over the world through popular media.  Millions look to their televangelist to tell them what to think and do as a Christian.  Nobodys like us don't have any weight.  We just are not "ordained" or some other such qualifying through Institutional Religion."

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.  I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".  I personally believe in UR, however, I have respect for people with an alternate point of view.
Ultimately, the most important thing is to walk with Jesus guiding us.
One thing is certain....punishment in the afterlife will occur, however, we can be certain it will be administered in the most excellent way by our God of love, justice and mercy.

[reFORMer]

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.

A rather unbelievable statistic, huh!?  I got it from 2 sources.  Back in the late 70's at a Kenneth Hagin Meeting he explained how across several years he had asked members of the audience that had been born again and attended some Christian gathering regularly to stand.  He asked several questions, but the one I remember was how many among them after 5 years had read the Bible through at least once to remain standing.  The result without much variation around the country was 3 1/2 %.

More recently, somewhere in one of Barna's books on Christian statistics he also had the figure of only 3 1/2 % of those who claimed to be born again and attend some kind of church regularly had ever read the Bible through even once.

Most are looking to the consensus of those around them, and specially to titled men in positions of honor from other men, often the rock star as televangelists (the most of which are very poor Bible students.)  This is at least part of why an argument from Scripture, that something is either written or it's not even there has little impact on them.  From Scripture is not how their faith is built.

[WhiteWings]

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.  I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".

I also believe many ETs are honest people.
But still I wonder why most people never leave their church/denominations.
How can it be that in town A full of honest Bible studying people all see the Catholic message in their Bible.
In town B equally honest Bible studiers all see a Protestant message in their Bible.

I find that odd...
Not speaking for everyone because I simple only know a few people but if I read posts on ET forums, YouTube, articles, etc I possibly see the reason.
Those people are thaught they are not allowed to think differently than their church leaders because if you even try to look at a verse from another angle during your study you are calling Jesus a liar. That sort of reasoning. For me true studying means the end conclusion can lead to every denomination. Even to islam....
But if a study is nothing more than rereading until you have exactly the same opionion as your pastor isn't true study in my book....

[CHB]

Not trying to take away from your post....however....stating that 96.5% of "Christians" only read a verse here and there and never study anything in Scripture, I think is being a little presumptuous.  I know quite a few "Christians" who are ET'ers that regularly study scripture, regularly read their Bibles and are really good Christians as far as "walking the walk".

I also believe many ETs are honest people.
But still I wonder why most people never leave their church/denominations.
How can it be that in town A full of honest Bible studying people all see the Catholic message in their Bible.
In town B equally honest Bible studiers all see a Protestant message in their Bible.

I find that odd...
Not speaking for everyone because I simple only know a few people but if I read posts on ET forums, YouTube, articles, etc I possibly see the reason.
Those people are thaught they are not allowed to think differently than their church leaders because if you even try to look at a verse from another angle during your study you are calling Jesus a liar. That sort of reasoning. For me true studying means the end conclusion can lead to every denomination. Even to islam....
But if a study is nothing more than rereading until you have exactly the same opionion as your pastor isn't true study in my book....

Yea!!! we do agree on something.  :bgdance:

CHB

[marie glen]

I cannot imagine that man/woman can conceive of a God that is better than the Almighty God who is. If God is perfect, and who would argue that point? Then the 'end' result can only be two things, one, perfect, and two, the utterly best 'end' result possible. Didn't (and doesn't) God see all things from A to Z, seeing  "the end from the beginning" and therefor wouldn't God do all things (every choice) in order to bring about that best of all possible outcomes and reality?

There were some great answers here! like: "teaching something doesn't make it true"(and many more!) - how true is that! :bigGrin: I don't think there's one group of people or church that teaches everything 100% right. I think a lot of it is a mixed bag!When it comes to handed down and around beliefs and perceptions. Unfortunately it's very hard to dislodge those slivers (and beams) of untruth from people's minds. Don't you think that's true? That untruths which are taught, for some reason are almost immovable? just look at the whole evolution, creation issue, if you study it, man's modern theory becomes an adult fairy tale of epic and ridiculous proportions, but look how deeply entrenched it is in the human psyche? And so it is with every untruth.. No matter what group I'm in I often wonder if we could get rid of the beam in our eye, we could pray like the first century believers and the House would be shaken.. or, on a personal level, if I had 100% clarity (the "seal on the forehead"? said to be coming to believers in the book of revelation) how more convincing would my own witness be?

Sorry to ramble on so on this board! And hopefully didn't stray too much! As you can see I found this discussion very interesting.. (sometimes it seems to me that untruth covers the earth like a wet, heavy quilt. I think all things are tapestries of light (true) and dark (untrue) threads. If every thread of a tapestry is dark (untrue) it can only fall apart. I guess I'm intrigued with the idea of a tapestry and tapestries of only true (full of light) threads, which of course, is the Kingdom of God! "And in Him is no darkness" so how in any stretch of the imagination could there exist an eternal torturous section of the universe, no make that of the Kingdom.. not wishful thinking, logic.
:bigGrin:

[shawn]

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  :2c: on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE

I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker

At this point in my walk...I'm in line with your thinking.  It's not something that has been revealed to me...yet.  What I do know is I trust God.  I trust his judgments.  And, if I need to learn to walk in that faith and trust...without knowing then so be it.  What I do know is that I have a great hope in Universal Salvation.  I do believe his grace is sufficient.  I do believe he wants to save the whole world.  I do believe Jesus died for the sins of every man.

[j.]

It is, at the end of the day, wishful thinking.

And, it is so much more than that...

Scripture is clear in teaching us the reconciliation of ALL things. It also speaks of hell and the destruction of the wicked. However, God gave us our intellect, and if we piece together the puzzle, it leads to the ideology of ultimate reconciliation.

We can all "prove" hell based on scripture. We can all "prove" eternal destruction based on scripture. We can all "prove" ultimate reconciliation based on scripture.

What makes the most sense?

Hell doesn't. Love doesn't torment.

Eternal destruction doesn't.  The Creator doesn't make mistakes.

Ultimate reconciliation does. We all don't walk in it, we all don't experience it, but He ultimately brings every component of His creation to Himself.

That makes sense.

[shawn]

Terrific post Sally.  I can tell you that is how I came to believe in UR.  As some here can attest, I waxed and waned back and forth...sometimes convinced...other times not.  I went through all the verses and arguments.  The conclusion I came up with?  That it's really hard to get your head and desires out of "exegesis".  I agree with everything you said.  While I truly believe the UR stance is stronger scripturally, I wasn't convinced by it.  When I gave up trying to figure it out...and just trusted God and his nature something very special happened.  I just knew...and believed.

[shawn]

Lol...didn't realize someone bumped an old post.  What a difference a year and a half make.  :)

[CST]

Wishful thinking? Could it be wishful thinking? OK, here is some, to me, logical thinking.

I think we would all agree that, at least from the human side, the root of UR in opposition to ET or ED is in a sincere question of the heart. We have heard and seen it read that God is Love. And we wonder why we should believe it makes sense that this Being that is naturally much more loving than us should destroy or injure permanently vast swaths of those beings He created, loves and has put up with for so long. This doesn't sound very loving.

An ETer or EDer will declare "ah, yes, God is completely loving, but He is also completely just and is obligated to punish sin and those that commit sin with the complete sentence for sin. This is presented as an appeal to God's Holiness. So the divide God according to His various characteristics as if He could be in conflict with Himself like that.

If you protest that the proposed solution doesn't sound very just either, punishing people forever for two or three generations worth of offences they will likely direct you to some scripture emphasising the futility of human wisdom against God's wisdom. Apparently, we don't really understand what love or justice actually is.

Well, lets's see what the Bible says:

"He has showed you, O man, what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

It's unclear how this statement could be true if we don't actually know what love and justice are but let's look at some other examples.

"If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, bruise for bruise, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25)

The law of lex talions, not really meant to be taken literally, in this use, but meant to demonstrate justice as a balancing act of keeping the sentence proportionate. I think the difficulties involved in literally following the latter ones were meant to give it away but it clearly soon got lost in given undue attention to the former ones.

If you doubt it try this:

"For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get." (Matt 7:2)

The idea of infinite sentences for finite crimes really doesn't seem to have too much Biblical support does it?

Let's look at one more quote:

"And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

People aren't supposed to be able to claim that they don't know what the light is, that they don't know what love and justice are.
The judgment is that they know full well what that are are frequently fail to do them; this is our condemnation. To claim we don't understand love and justice so they can justify everlasting punishment is spectacularly disingenuous. Of course we know what these things are.

But just in case they might want to claim that there some sins or many just one sin that actually is infinite in degree and thus demands an infinite punishment let us look at this possibility in the light of their appeal to God's justice.

So we are imagining there is an infinite sin or sins which some people have committed and in order to meat the demands of justice God has to give an infinite sentence to those people. This is reactive justice they have committed the offence, God reacts by punishing the offence justice is restored through infinite punishment, torment in this case.

Here's the snag, because this form of justice is reactive there always has to injustice in the future that it is meeting, so in this scenario there will always be injustice in the world because the people receiving the sentence are always guilty that is why the sentence is justified.

So maybe you annihilate, maybe immediately maybe after a period of torment, although it's hard to see at what point this change over in sentence would be justified, is this better.

Well, no because God can't forget. The sinners still exist in His knowledge and, since He always retains the power to restore then to existence should He choose to His continued choice not to is another exercise in reactive justice with the same problems illustrated above. And added to this is the fact that as soon as they are annihilated they cease to exist in the world, no longer have guilt (because non existent things can't have anything) and no longer deserve their continuing sentence.

So either way we have injustice rolling on in some form into perpetuity, if God is as just as He is claimed to be and if He must oppose injustice, He simply cannot allow this.

Eternal torment may have apparent moral problems but there is nothing that seems to exceed the philosophical problems the doctrine of annihilation has.

God is not in conflict with Himself, the above argument is intended to demonstrate that if the doctrines of either Hell or Annihilation are at odds with God's love they must also be at odds with His justice.

One final point for those who probably aren't reading but I believe need to hear it, the Bible is really clear on the fact that that one day God really will receive the worship of everyone. And no this is not some forced worship or some pipe dream that God can't really fulfil.

Whatever major eschatological camp you are in I have every reason to believe you agree with the statement I am about to make. Whether right now you believe in Everlasting Torment, or Everlasting Destruction or Universal Reconciliation, I expect that you will believe that our worship, our true and sincere worship, in whatever form that may come, isn't something that God would kind of like to have but can accept losing. No, it is something God is owed, from everyone for always. Everlasting punishment is God permanently depriving Himself of that which He is owed. I don't think that's right. I don't think God is going to do that.

And in that fashion God's justice will be serve, because He will receive the worship He is due and as He receives it the people of the world will, be choice, do only justice and thus injustice will be expelled from creation.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that sounds pretty glorious.

[marie glen]

Oh I do love logic!! I.e., Amen!! very :goodpost: :smile:

[Dandelion]

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  :2c: on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE


I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker

Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.

I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.

I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.

One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.

I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)

I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.

Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.

And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.

I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.

And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.

As, I believe, it should be and must be.

Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

Romans 14:10 - 12

...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

D.

[CST]

Oh I do love logic!! I.e., Amen!! very :goodpost: :smile:

I will read that as an approval of my application of logic, I can't help suspecting ETers and EDers will manage to produce their own seemingly perfectly logical responses to that. I'm not capable of imagining it's perfect. I like that you approve, I can take that a a rather good endorsement. :gimmefive:

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  :2c: on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE


I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker

Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.

I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.

I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.

One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.

I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)

I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.

Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.

And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.

I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.

And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.

As, I believe, it should be and must be.

Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

Romans 14:10 - 12

...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

D.

Rings true? To be fair it would be wonderful if that was all that was needed to convince people of its truth.

Sorry to here about your daughter. Thank God all that scripture can be trusted and that God who spoke it can be trusted. Like that line you took from Romans with it (and lines like it) the final aspect of the argument above was based.

[Dandelion]

One cannot convince someone of what they do not know. It was through terrible loneliness and isolation that I came to know how deep God's love is. And, His Spirit carried me through terrible darkness and evil. I consider myself very blessed to have gone through what I did. I would probably
never had come to know God the way I do, otherwise. What to this world is horror, God has used for my good.

So, that is why I can say and think as I do. And I am eternally grateful to my 'Abba' father who could turn my sad story into incredible joy.

I was blessed to be a blessing......so I must shout my story from the mountain top, which I happily do.

D.

[marie glen]

Then, while wishfully thinking, couldn't you just be trying to make Bible verses and different doctrinal interpretations fit what you hope is true?  I mean, again, who wants to go to hell?
My  :2c: on this post....

Lets be honest....we can believe that ur is true....they can believe that et and/or ed is true....but our belief and et belief is each very dependant on translation and how each position wants  to interpret it.  Ultimately, whatever you believe you are going to interpret it the way you believe it to be true.  In the end God will do as he pleases and then and only then will we find out 100%.
I have seen very convincing arguements both ways of the ur/et debate and for my money.....I have my faith in God....no matter what happens.  I trust God to be the perfect judge....in the end he will...1) Do what he says he is going to do...(which is kind of hard for us to figure out due to the translation issues, not to mention interpretation issues)....2) Whatever he does we can rest assured that he will do with love, mercy and utmost fairness....because God is LOVE


I trust and love our father and know that in the end everything will be more than excellent.....because we are his children and he promises us lots of goodies !!!!!! :rocker

Sorry if I am repeating something that someone else said.....I did not get to read all the responses.

I believe that UR is true, because it rings true, as to who God is.

I told a story on another topic last night, and took it off, as I felt it was not appropriate. But, I will repost it in response to this subject.

One night, I saw my daughter, standing at a bus stop, after midnight. It was cold and windy; there was no one on the streets, in that upper-class suburb of Westchester......just a handful of cars passing. She was 18, and despite my pleas, had left us to live with a very objectionable boyfriend, who turned out to be a much worse influence that I had originally suspected. She was supposed to be living in the dorm, of the college across the street from the bus stop, but she was actually living with him.....and neglecting her studies, doing so. She had only entered the college as an honor student, about 3 months prior.

I tried my best to get her to take a ride with me, to wherever she needed to go, but she refused. I was not surprised, but when I had to leave her there, at that bus stop, my heart was broken. The image of her standing there could still hurt, but I rarely allow myself to think about it. ( I almost forgot...I waited in the car, until the bus came, a bit away from where she was standing, so I could see her get on the bus, safely, at least.)

I know how much I love my daughter......and I also know that God loves her and I and all of us, far more. And, I know all the promises He has made to us......and I know His word is true.

Yes, we will be held accountable.....but, in the end, love will overcome all.

And, the verse in 1Corinthians13:18 always echoes in my heart......Love never fails.

I, as a human can fail, but He cannot. And, because He cannot fail, and because of His infinite love; because He is love........ He will take us all safely home.

And Jesus will truly be victorious, because all God's children will be saved, and we will truly be the Body of Christ. The devil will have no fame or claim to any one of us.....Christ alone will have overcome death and sin and despair.

As, I believe, it should be and must be.

Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

Romans 14:10 - 12

...10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." 12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

D.

I love that! I'm glad you reposted it, D. Some great thoughts! ..the whole "God is love" .."He is Almighty" but He will lose 3/4's of humanity can't ever jive.

-----
But truly, for all to consider, as said (sort of) all each one can do is be a "good Berean" and search and study the scripture for ourselves. And that logically would include digging into the original languages used.. And maybe some of the mindset of the time, though Yahweh of course is beyond that as is truth. Even if logic alone has convinced us - which, "the heart is deceitful above all things" - For me logic came first in that first blush of first love.. and I loved His Word also. Luckily I've always been a bit of a spiritual hermit so His Word is what I've had. And His Spirit of course, as is the promise. "you shall hear a voice behind thee.. this is the way go ye in it". - I think that is rather badly paraphrased, but that's how I remember the verse. My daughter's on my computer right now.. and I gave up using the concordant books :Chinscratch: wonder where those are..?

If you're not taught hell and never embraced it, it's not very difficult..

Lazarus Short's thread "heaven yes, hell no" going through each book of the Bible looking for and finding no references to 'hell' is really good. (Can see some things differently perhaps..? but the main purpose rings very true and is turning out really good.)

Sheol of the Old Testament, remember, was the grave "where all go" where Jacob? Job? asked God to "hide him" and where there is "no knowing or doing"... Then voila, in the New Testament we are supposed to believe now there is this huge fire awaiting most of mankind.. Besides, that sneakily sounds a lot more lie Baal to me.. And the Persephone type myths.. Egypt's involved levels and fire..

And if we ask Him, He will minister to and guide us.. It is all in His Word. We can take Him at His Word. His Word is His oath.
       :Peace2: :gsmile: :2c: