Luke 13:5 Repent or Perish

[jabcat]

Luke 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[jabcat]

legoman said;

I don't think anyone is denying that the wicked will be destroyed - that is what you think these verses mean right?  The wicked will be destroyed - I agree, hallelujah!  There won't be any wicked people in heaven - it wouldn't be much of a heaven if there were still wicked people around?

However this destruction cannot mean annihilation or eternal death, for that would contradict all the other verses that have been raised - God will have all men to be saved - all will be made alive in Christ - every knee will bow and every tongue confess and even swear allegiance to Him. etc.

So it is imperative to understand what is meant when we read the wicked are destroyed.

Consider Saul/Paul.  He should be viewed as the "everyman" - the model for all conversion.  First note it was God who did the converting - God is in control.  Secondly why was he first called Saul - the chief of sinners who persecuted and killed many, but then when he was converted he became the great apostle Paul?

After Paul's conversion, Saul was no more - he was destroyed.  The wicked Saul was destroyed by destroying the wickedness out of himself.  This left only Paul.
Saul was the old carnal self, Paul was the new creation.  Note that we all start with a physical name, but when we are converted we are given a new name.  The old man is destroyed.

We learn that names are written in the "book of life" (which is Christ).  We can be rest assured that Saul was not written in the book of life, but Paul most certainly is.  And so it will be for all of us.  Like I said, Saul/Paul is the "everyman" - he is the model, for God is not respecter of persons; so all will be converted in a similar manner as Paul was.

And so the wicked are truly destroyed when our carnal self is fully and completely destroyed.

Please consider this when reading the verses you posted above.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Luke 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I suspect this verse is used due to a misunderstanding of the type of Universalism that is being addressed.

For Christian Universalism that teaches that all will repent and all are saved through Jesus Christ this verse is a statement of fact.    We do not bypass the need for repentance and this verse is a reminder of that fact.

[Nil Recurring]

Well the Lake of Fire IS the Second Death, so a literal reading of that can easily mean the LoF. Thank God that death itself will be destroyed in the end.

[marie glen]

There is no other way to eternal life! But through "believing in Jesus".

There's two resurrections. The first, which is described by:

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 :
"I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality."

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

{also, Revelation 20:4 "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theyhad not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection."}


And the "second resurrection" which is described as:

Revelation 20:5 "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection."

and, Revelation 20:7,11-15 "When the thousand years are over...  ....Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

- This hinges upon what we consider to be "the Book of Life" - to be living!? But to live of course, is "to believe". After being resurrected and witnessing what is bound to be a very loong day of the examination of all things (as to what worked and what didn't, or went wrong [good from evil / life from death] examining what works from what simply cannot ever work). After living through all that, who's not going to "believe"?

[CrossoverManiac]

Luke 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Here's the question: how did these people perish.

1
    At that time some people who were present there told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with the blood of their sacrifices.
2
    He said to them in reply, "Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were greater sinners than all other Galileans?
3
    By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!
4
    Or those eighteen people who were killed when the tower at Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than everyone else who lived in Jerusalem?
5
    By no means! But I tell you, if you do not repent, you will all perish as they did!"

-Luke 13: 1-5

All of these people died sudden, violent deaths. Forty years later, in A.D. 70, Jerusalem was utterly destroyed by the Romans.  Going by purely the reading and not any doctrine, it seems to Jesus was referring to that and not ET.

[thinktank]

That's an interesting perspective, but there is a problem, quite a big one. By the time Jesus preached at about 30 years old it would be about 30 AD, know by the time 70 AD came about a baby at that time would be 40 years old! Which is quite an old age at that time. A 20 year old would be 60 years old. Given that most of Jesus audience would probably be of adult age, since they would be the ones that carry the power, being farm owners etc then it's likely that most of his audience would be over 20 years old. The point I'm making is that as harsh as it sounds, by the time the romans would invade, most of the folks would be ready to perish in any case from old age.

[Aleax]

Apollymi does not mean "lost forever", and we can prove that from the Scriptures.

--

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish (apollymi).

Jesus Christ says that all people who die unrepentant will perish. The Greek word from the original manuscripts, which has been translated as perish in this verse, is apollymi. It is necessary to fully understand the meaning of this important word apollymi, which Jesus Christ uses several times to describe the age-to-come judgement of unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. 

In the Bible, apollymi is translated into English to give several meanings which are: to perish, to destroy, to put to ruin, to render useless, to kill and to lose (See Strong's G622). So, here in this verse, Luke 13:3, Christ is saying that unless you repent you are useless to God, and if something is useless it is only good for throwing away like rubbish and burned. However, Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world, and He is the Refiner and the Restorer. In the beautiful story of the lost son, the prodigal son, given in the same Gospel in Luke 15, Jesus Christ uses the same Greek word apollymi.

Luke 15:24
'For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost (apollymi), and is found.' And they began to be merry.

So, when Jesus Christ says that 'unless you repent you will all likewise perish', Jesus does not mean that all those who do not repent will be annihilated or punished eternally. The parable of the lost son proves this categorically because the lost (apollymi) son (perished son) was not lost forever because he was found once he repented. From this parable, we know that the lost or 'perished' son was able to repent of his sin and was gladly accepted back by his father with great celebration.

Luke 19:10
The Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollymi).

Once again, we see the same Greek word apollymi is used. How many are lost? All people are born lost with a sinful fallen Adamic nature. The Bible says that there is not one righteous, no, not even one. Jesus Christ will save all people without exception, as man's fallen will or Satan's rebellious will cannot frustrate God's sovereign will to save all of the lost.

Christ is indeed committed to saving all those who are lost, all those who are perished, like the prodigal son. Jesus Christ is indeed the Great Saviour of the lost, and He is absolutely not a great annihilator or a great torturer of people in hell.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollymi) both soul and body in hell (gehenna).

Christ says that we must not fear men who at worst can only kill us physically, but they cannot take away the resurrected immortal life, which God will give to all people. However, we need to fear God because if we do not fear Him in this age before we die, then there is a judgement awaiting us in gehenna, meaning in the Lake of Fire on the Great White Throne Judgement Day.

Notice in the verse above how Christ once again uses the same word apollymi. The destruction (apollymi) of 'both soul and body in hell' refers to the Second Death, which is the spiritual death of the 'old man'. Our 'old sinful Adamic man' must first be destroyed before the life of the 'new righteous Jesus man' can be born in us. All unbelievers, who will rise at the Second Resurrection in their immortal yet still unsaved bodies, will experience the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. We have fully covered this subject in Chapter 12, The Lake of Fire Judgement Age - Part 1.

Matthew 10:39
He who finds his life will lose (apollymi) it, and he who loses (apollymi) his life for My sake will find it.

In this verse, Christ once again emphasises the same truth by using the Greek word apollymi. We must first lose our old self-righteous Adamic man through repentance and belief in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, before we can be born again into New Life in Christ. This is true for believers during this life and for unbelievers in the Lake of Fire Judgement Age. 

It should now be abundantly clear that when Jesus Christ uses the Greek word apollymi in connection with the future judgement of unbelievers in gehenna (mistranslated as hell), He does not mean that unbelievers will perish, be lost, killed, destroyed, ruined or tortured for eternity. Jesus is clearly referring to the future corrective refining merciful judgement of all unbelievers during the Lake of Fire Judgement Age. 

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (apollymi) but have everlasting life.

This is the verse most frequently quoted by Christians; however, the true meaning of this scripture is distorted by hell believing Christians. Father God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Only true believers have everlasting life by faith now, and they will come into the actuality of it when they rise in their saved immortal bodies in the First Resurrection. However, all unbelievers who will rise in the Second Resurrection, in their unsaved immortal bodies, will need to perish in God's corrective Lake of Fire judgement. This is because their 'old Adamic man' will need to be destroyed (crucified with Christ) so that their 'new Jesus man' is born in them. They will become born again believers through the Second Death in the Lake of Fire, as explained in detail in Chapter 12.

(source: godsplanforall.com)

[marie glen]

Without repenting / changing one's mind and "believing" one cannot "have life".
- 1 John 5:12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." This is an eternal truth.

However, it is assumed that one can only repent during this lifetime. Yet the only verse that perhaps might imply this, is when Jesus told the Pharisees that unless they repented they would "die in their sins". For too long it has been assumed and taken for granted that this means to eternally perish or to be eternally punished (to be eternally apart from God). But! is that what it truly says or only what is assumed? (by so many). The "second resurrection" is far inferior to the "first resurrection". If one "dies in their sin" they cannot be part of the joyful first resurrection, hence they will be part of the far less celebratory second resurrection. But where in all the Bible does it actually say that's "the end".. all who enter here all hope is lost.. When "all the books are opened" (Revelation 20:12) and all things hidden are uncovered (Matthew 10:26) won't that be a rather long 'day'? After having been resurrected, and witnessing a very long 'day' of the examination of all things, who's not going to repent and "believe"? Who would choose, then, willfully, will choose non-life knowing that for aLL intents and purposes God iS Life? That one is in danger of hellfire if there be such a one. (For most of the UR persuasion, I'm assuming, this means a hellfire which cleanses and beings to repentance.)

"He who has the Son has Life, he who has not the Son, has not Life" 1 John 5:12 Unless someone repent they will not see life.. this does not mean that there will be anyone who does not repent! (After all God is Perfect, therefor the 'end' result of all this, can-only-be Perfect!)
- "Every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess 'Jesus is Lord'."  (Romans 14:11; Philippians 2:10; Isaiah 45:23)

[thinktank]

I have discovered another persepective on this, I will show it here. Perish in the statement by Jesus may not mean, instant death, both spiritual and physically speaking, which means that perish could mean, to rot, to decay, to become lost, or to become evil.
When you witness a person who might for example party and begin to take drugs, they might end up taking more and more drugs and end up on a downward spiral. What was once an average life, nothing to exciting perhaps, now becomes a life of desperation and wickedness, they steal for their habit, they steal from their parents, the person finds themselves on a never ending spiral downwards. How far does that tunnel drop? Will they kill for their entertainment?
How far can a person fall?, we might think that physical death is the end of the spiral, but what if the spiral continues even after death. If the person did not find Christ when they lived and rejected Him, rejected morality and righteousness, they might continue to reject him after death and hence continue a life of moral indecency, plunging deeper and deeper into darkness, eventually becoming a shell of their former selves, they look in the mirror and lo and behold a demon looks back, they have become a monster! they have perished! and are lost in Hades!
Another person might be full of pride, they treat others with contempt and look down and despise people such as the drug addict I mentioned, they are blind to their own wickedness, they do not care for the sheep, they tread and spit upon them, their darkness continues after they die, the righteousness of Jesus means nothing to them, so they reject morality.
Only Jesus can bring them back to the road to recovery, but the road to recovery can be a long and painfull process as the light of Jesus makes their, reflection even more hideous than they can bare, they cling on to Jesus for dear life, fighting to restore their former selves  and go beyond and to be saved.
So to perish means to be evil and to be saved means to be righteous. We must overcome the temptation of evil, for it destroys mans spirit.
:2c:

[Lefein]

The wicked will surely die - just as we who were wicked have died to ourselves, and die daily to wickedness.

Everyone will die, wasn't it Paul who said that we die to ourselves to live in Christ?  That Christ lives, and Paul has died?  That to die is gain?

Surely the wicked will die, just as surely as Christ lives and we in him have died.  True?

Didn't Christ say that if we hold on to our life, we'll die, but if we die to our life we'll find it in him?

It seems that dying for everyone is inevitable in order to inevitably gain life.

[shawn]

Apollymi does not mean "lost forever", and we can prove that from the Scriptures.

--

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish (apollymi).

Jesus Christ says that all people who die unrepentant will perish. The Greek word from the original manuscripts, which has been translated as perish in this verse, is apollymi. It is necessary to fully understand the meaning of this important word apollymi, which Jesus Christ uses several times to describe the age-to-come judgement of unbelievers in the Lake of Fire. 

In the Bible, apollymi is translated into English to give several meanings which are: to perish, to destroy, to put to ruin, to render useless, to kill and to lose (See Strong's G622). So, here in this verse, Luke 13:3, Christ is saying that unless you repent you are useless to God, and if something is useless it is only good for throwing away like rubbish and burned. However, Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the world, and He is the Refiner and the Restorer. In the beautiful story of the lost son, the prodigal son, given in the same Gospel in Luke 15, Jesus Christ uses the same Greek word apollymi.

Luke 15:24
'For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost (apollymi), and is found.' And they began to be merry.

So, when Jesus Christ says that 'unless you repent you will all likewise perish', Jesus does not mean that all those who do not repent will be annihilated or punished eternally. The parable of the lost son proves this categorically because the lost (apollymi) son (perished son) was not lost forever because he was found once he repented. From this parable, we know that the lost or 'perished' son was able to repent of his sin and was gladly accepted back by his father with great celebration.

Luke 19:10
The Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (apollymi).

Once again, we see the same Greek word apollymi is used. How many are lost? All people are born lost with a sinful fallen Adamic nature. The Bible says that there is not one righteous, no, not even one. Jesus Christ will save all people without exception, as man's fallen will or Satan's rebellious will cannot frustrate God's sovereign will to save all of the lost.

Christ is indeed committed to saving all those who are lost, all those who are perished, like the prodigal son. Jesus Christ is indeed the Great Saviour of the lost, and He is absolutely not a great annihilator or a great torturer of people in hell.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollymi) both soul and body in hell (gehenna).

Christ says that we must not fear men who at worst can only kill us physically, but they cannot take away the resurrected immortal life, which God will give to all people. However, we need to fear God because if we do not fear Him in this age before we die, then there is a judgement awaiting us in gehenna, meaning in the Lake of Fire on the Great White Throne Judgement Day.

Notice in the verse above how Christ once again uses the same word apollymi. The destruction (apollymi) of 'both soul and body in hell' refers to the Second Death, which is the spiritual death of the 'old man'. Our 'old sinful Adamic man' must first be destroyed before the life of the 'new righteous Jesus man' can be born in us. All unbelievers, who will rise at the Second Resurrection in their immortal yet still unsaved bodies, will experience the Second Death in the Lake of Fire. We have fully covered this subject in Chapter 12, The Lake of Fire Judgement Age - Part 1.

Matthew 10:39
He who finds his life will lose (apollymi) it, and he who loses (apollymi) his life for My sake will find it.

In this verse, Christ once again emphasises the same truth by using the Greek word apollymi. We must first lose our old self-righteous Adamic man through repentance and belief in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, before we can be born again into New Life in Christ. This is true for believers during this life and for unbelievers in the Lake of Fire Judgement Age. 

It should now be abundantly clear that when Jesus Christ uses the Greek word apollymi in connection with the future judgement of unbelievers in gehenna (mistranslated as hell), He does not mean that unbelievers will perish, be lost, killed, destroyed, ruined or tortured for eternity. Jesus is clearly referring to the future corrective refining merciful judgement of all unbelievers during the Lake of Fire Judgement Age. 

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (apollymi) but have everlasting life.

This is the verse most frequently quoted by Christians; however, the true meaning of this scripture is distorted by hell believing Christians. Father God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Only true believers have everlasting life by faith now, and they will come into the actuality of it when they rise in their saved immortal bodies in the First Resurrection. However, all unbelievers who will rise in the Second Resurrection, in their unsaved immortal bodies, will need to perish in God's corrective Lake of Fire judgement. This is because their 'old Adamic man' will need to be destroyed (crucified with Christ) so that their 'new Jesus man' is born in them. They will become born again believers through the Second Death in the Lake of Fire, as explained in detail in Chapter 12.

(source: godsplanforall.com)

IMO, this is VERY strong scriptural evidence.  If Jesus spoke of apollymi which was also used to descibe others who were lost, useless, perished but were later "found" it could be a significant key.  This whole issue of perishing, destruction, death has been a stumbling block for me intellectually.  I think the most telling is that of the prodigal son.  At the very least it provides support for the notion that perishing may be temporary.

[thinktank]

Yes Aleax post inspired me to write what I wrote, too.

[jabcat]

IMO, this is VERY strong scriptural evidence.  If Jesus spoke of apollymi which was also used to descibe others who were lost, useless, perished but were later "found" it could be a significant key.  This whole issue of perishing, destruction, death has been a stumbling block for me intellectually.  I think the most telling is that of the prodigal son.  At the very least it provides support for the notion that perishing may be temporary.

Amen.   :thumbsup: