What's so bad about annihilation

[WhiteWings]

There are a couple members here who have been continually warned.  Yet, their behavior does not change.  The Bible is clear about how we handle such situations.

Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

^YLTMatt 18
22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Lefein....Uh, yes, He did. All flesh is female to God (the Spirit plants the seed) UNTIL the manifestation of the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON in a many-membered body. Think not? Are you part of the bride He's "returning" for? The natural, as always, bears this witness, as all babies are female FIRST, before a change occurs to make them males. Only begotten, means there is only one, who will manifest in a many-membered body.

And since that "woman" is outside the inner court as decreed by law (only the priests were allowed into the inner sanctum) in the outer court, the ONLY WAY she can enter is to be ONE WITH HER HUSBAND, thus since they are then one flesh, "she" enters too. This is the principle behind why the NT tells us there is neither male nor female in Christ (inner court) Jesus (outer court). Not because there is either/or as if some neutral creature, but because there is BOTH. Blessings.... 

[shawn]

There are a couple members here who have been continually warned.  Yet, their behavior does not change.  The Bible is clear about how we handle such situations.

Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

^YLTMatt 18
22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.

Do you believe that verse is a statment about letting fellow believers abuse each other?  I doubt it.  It's a statement made to emphasize the importance of forgiveness.  We should ALWAYS forgive.  That doesn't mean you allow someone with a divisive spirit to break the peace within a community of believers.  You can forgive someone yet allow them to experience consequences for their actions.   :2c: 

[LS]

LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing.  Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer.  The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)

Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism.  :cloud9:

Hi Lefein ... I want you to know that many of your posts have blessed me.  I agree with you on a number of topics and have thought you presented them well.

In Travis' introduction thread, Hello, I'm Travis, post #78 I explained what brought me to TM. 

And like Shawn wrote, I often see people at TM make comments like, "How do ED and ET-ers believe that?" type of statements.  So I've only tried to explain how I see certain things in scripture.  I never attempt to argue anyone out of believing US; that's never been my intent and I hope I haven't come across that way. I just like to discuss, I like to understand others' viewpoints, I like give & take.  I started a few threads in the Arguments Against Universal Salvation forum and have listened carefully to all of the replies; there are some very sharp people here and I've enjoyed looking at the scriptures they've given and considering their points.

All that said, I know this board is meant to be a safe haven for like-minded believers in universal salvation and I appreciate it for what it is.  I'll try to stick to the prayer threads if I'm going to post; that's my ministry anyway   :cloud9:

I appreciate your kindness and look forward to reading more of your posts   :icon_flower:

[Lefein]

I am glad to have been a blessing to you LS, and I hope to not fail in that in the future, and I pray my posts will contain more honey than venom in the future as well.

You're blessed, and I am thankful that you exist. ^^

[shawn]

I am glad to have been a blessing to you LS, and I hope to not fail in that in the future, and I pray my posts will contain more honey than venom in the future as well.

You're blessed, and I am thankful that you exist. ^^

And I appreciate your posts as well.  I can tell we share much in common.  We are both passionate and emotional.  Unfortunately, those type of personalities can also be offended with ease.  God has worked on me for years in that area.  He has done so by establishing in my mind that I am indeed a son of God.  I am loved by him.  No person's opinion of me matters much and certainly doesn't carry eternal weight.  If I keep that in mind, I avoid the weight of offense.  When I don't well...then I get bothered.

I have seen some members grow even in the short time I have been here.  You are one of them.

[legoman]

If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.

Don't you think we are all a child of the harlot system at some point?  I don't think it was an insult...

This is just my personal viewpoint.  But as one who believed in eternal torment for 30 years, then considered annihilation for a short period of time, before fully studying and embracing the concept of universal salvation, I can see what willie is saying.  I was in that system for a LONG time.  While in that system I contradicted myself, I didn't understand it, I thought about those who would go into that alleged eternal torment - I didn't know what to do about it.  I even though some would probably deserve it - even though that makes no sense.  ET was senseless.  Annihilation, while agreeably is infinitely more merciful than ET, still does not even come close to offering a full victory for Christ.

We ALL have to come out of the harlot system at some point. ("Come out of her my people" - Rev 18). We are each in different places in this journey, if someone is in a different place in the journey things may seem insulting or offensive only because they have a different perspective.  Look at all the ETers who curse the very idea of UR and find it insulting to their sensibility.

Perhaps what I just said in this post makes no sense to you so it might seem offensive again - trust me that is not my intent.

For those who are searching, maybe it is good to just study for a long long time - without getting into big debates because of the strife and feelings that are hurt.  Try to clarify what you yourself believe first.  Read scripture, read articles from all viewpoints interpreting scripture.  Examine it without bias.  Try to determine which is reasonable and logical based on what all scriptures say.  Pray on it. 

The scriptures do not contradict.  The statements: "God will have all men to be saved" and "The wicked people will be annihilated into eternal death" cannot both be true.

[WhiteWings]

LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing.  Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer.  The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)

Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism.  :cloud9:

And like Shawn wrote, I often see people at TM make comments like, "How do ED and ET-ers believe that?" type of statements.

I'm guilty of that. But you have to add UR to the list too. Not all UR people believe the same as you very likely noticed :2c: But still they all get that same UR label.
But still I see no big harm in it. If we need to be so careful with words that it starts like writing a legal document then this forum will be dead.

So I've only tried to explain how I see certain things in scripture.  I never attempt to argue anyone out of believing US; that's never been my intent and I hope I haven't come across that way. I just like to discuss,

And that's a pitty. Although you have an ED label the verses you use carry the HS label. I think a forum trives on disagreement. (not foodfight)

I started a few threads in the Arguments Against Universal Salvation forum and have listened carefully to all of the replies; there are some very sharp people here and I've enjoyed looking at the scriptures they've given and considering their points.

I can say there is at least 1 person on this forum that likes to hear other views. Iron sharpens iron. But if we all walk aroud with rubber sticks....

All that said, I know this board is meant to be a safe haven for like-minded believers in universal salvation

Not 100% sure but I think this forum is about learning about UR. Of course you are partly right because owner of this forum (and many others) think/hope you will get converted to UR.
:2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thank you, Legoman, that's what I was trying to say  :thumbsup:

[shawn]

If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.

Don't you think we are all a child of the harlot system at some point?  I don't think it was an insult...

This is just my personal viewpoint.  But as one who believed in eternal torment for 30 years, then considered annihilation for a short period of time, before fully studying and embracing the concept of universal salvation, I can see what willie is saying.  I was in that system for a LONG time.  While in that system I contradicted myself, I didn't understand it, I thought about those who would go into that alleged eternal torment - I didn't know what to do about it.  I even though some would probably deserve it - even though that makes no sense.  ET was senseless.  Annihilation, while agreeably is infinitely more merciful than ET, still does not even come close to offering a full victory for Christ.

We ALL have to come out of the harlot system at some point. ("Come out of her my people" - Rev 18). We are each in different places in this journey, if someone is in a different place in the journey things may seem insulting or offensive only because they have a different perspective.  Look at all the ETers who curse the very idea of UR and find it insulting to their sensibility.

Perhaps what I just said in this post makes no sense to you so it might seem offensive again - trust me that is not my intent.

For those who are searching, maybe it is good to just study for a long long time - without getting into big debates because of the strife and feelings that are hurt.  Try to clarify what you yourself believe first.  Read scripture, read articles from all viewpoints interpreting scripture.  Examine it without bias.  Try to determine which is reasonable and logical based on what all scriptures say.  Pray on it. 

The scriptures do not contradict.  The statements: "God will have all men to be saved" and "The wicked people will be annihilated into eternal death" cannot both be true.

We used to be sons of the devil as well.  But, do we refer to other believers with that term?  I would hope not.  I don't think we have to handle each other with kid gloves but we should try to state our opinions with respect.  There is zero reason to turn them into personal insults.

[Lefein]

Amen Shawn.

[legoman]

If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.

Don't you think we are all a child of the harlot system at some point?  I don't think it was an insult...

This is just my personal viewpoint.  But as one who believed in eternal torment for 30 years, then considered annihilation for a short period of time, before fully studying and embracing the concept of universal salvation, I can see what willie is saying.  I was in that system for a LONG time.  While in that system I contradicted myself, I didn't understand it, I thought about those who would go into that alleged eternal torment - I didn't know what to do about it.  I even though some would probably deserve it - even though that makes no sense.  ET was senseless.  Annihilation, while agreeably is infinitely more merciful than ET, still does not even come close to offering a full victory for Christ.

We ALL have to come out of the harlot system at some point. ("Come out of her my people" - Rev 18). We are each in different places in this journey, if someone is in a different place in the journey things may seem insulting or offensive only because they have a different perspective.  Look at all the ETers who curse the very idea of UR and find it insulting to their sensibility.

Perhaps what I just said in this post makes no sense to you so it might seem offensive again - trust me that is not my intent.

For those who are searching, maybe it is good to just study for a long long time - without getting into big debates because of the strife and feelings that are hurt.  Try to clarify what you yourself believe first.  Read scripture, read articles from all viewpoints interpreting scripture.  Examine it without bias.  Try to determine which is reasonable and logical based on what all scriptures say.  Pray on it. 

The scriptures do not contradict.  The statements: "God will have all men to be saved" and "The wicked people will be annihilated into eternal death" cannot both be true.

We used to be sons of the devil as well.  But, do we refer to other believers with that term?  I would hope not.  I don't think we have to handle each other with kid gloves but we should try to state our opinions with respect.  There is zero reason to turn them into personal insults.

Ok, we seem to be dwelling on this point a bit.  I think it is a matter of perspective.

Sure you would not call another believer the son of the devil.  I understand that.  But consider this for a moment.  What do you think of the doctrine of eternal torment?  I find it to be a very despicable doctrine.  Personally I would call it a doctrine of the devil, and many people we call "believers" who believe in eternal torment, are actually horribly lost, because they think that God saved them because of whatever special rules they believe they must do to be saved, but He will not save everybody else, because they didn't do the "right thing" (whatever that is).

Now do you agree with this, or is this just a horrible insult I've made to all believers in eternal torment?  I guess the point I'm making is the truth can seem like an insult, when perhaps we need to humbly ask what is it all about.

I know for sure 100% of ET believers will be insulted if you tell them the doctrine of eternal torment is actually from satan.  But it was not meant as an insult, its simply the way things are.

[Lefein]

I don't think that is the point being addressed here Legoman, there is more to an insult than the words being used - context is important, and especially the tone - perceived or purposed.

Tip for future posters: You can make your point, without being up in someone's face about it, putting them into a corner, and projecting the argument back onto the person.  It is ungodly to constantly do so - there is a time and a place, that time and place is not omnipresent.  God gave us common sense, which in the ancient world was called wisdom.  We would do well to use this untapped gift of the Spirit, especially when dealing with our fellow brothers and sisters.

Spare the rod, does not mean wailing on your child in the face with an iron mace - I think we can apply this principle to discussions that require at times brotherly discipline, or chastisement when it is required (and I emphasise when, and add an especial; if) to present the Truth in Love.

And of course, as the old phrase goes - for every finger pointed at you, there are three pointed back at myself: I am aware of my own faults.  :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Just what do you brothers believe you came out of to get where you are at? Were you just born as the sons of God and bride? :sigh:

[Lefein]

Yes Micah, we were.

I myself have been born 'again from above'.  Not to a religious prostitute who pretends to be my mother - but to the faithful Bride who is my real mother.

Recall the judgement of Solomon and the two women with the baby.

Though the Bride and Babylon stand before the son of David, arguing over whose son I am, I do not belong to Babylon, who suffocated her babe - though she may have taken me out of my mother's arms for a little while to pretend to be my mother in an attempt to steal me, while at the same time putting a dead child upon the Bride's bosom - though all of this was done, I am returned to the woman who birthed me by the son of David, and now I am nursing and gaining my strength to grow.

[micah7:9]

Yes Micah, we were.

I myself have been born 'again from above'.  Not to a religious prostitute who pretends to be my mother - but to the faithful Bride who is my real mother.

Recall the judgement of Solomon and the two women with the baby.

Though the Bride and Babylon stand before the son of David, arguing over whose son I am, I do not belong to Babylon, who suffocated her babe - though she may have taken me out of my mother's arms for a little while to pretend to be my mother in an attempt to steal me, while at the same time putting a dead child upon the Bride's bosom - though all of this was done, I am returned to the woman who birthed me by the son of David, and now I am nursing and gaining my strength to grow.

Explain that please with some scripture.
2Co 6:17  wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I--I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  and I will be to you for a Father, and ye--ye shall be to Me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.'

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Lefein, being born from above has NOTHING to do with mouthing the words taught in the churches to garner the initial salvation experience, but EVERYTHING to do with the REAL "rapture". We are CAUGHT UP into NEW Jerusalem which is from above, and which is our mother.

And the "mark" of this is that you have been set free from the law of sin and death (experientially NOT just doctrinal assent), which results, among other things, in our conversation being FROM HEAVEN, which is why John said in Revelation that he heard things NOT LAWFUL (ie. of the law from Jerusalem that is below, which engenders bondage) for man to speak.

Thank God these things ARE lawful for the SON IN US, to speak, and they bring LIBERTY, the liberty found in the Spirit which is liberty and life in Christ Jesus. Blessings....

[Cardinal]

 :sigh: I see this thread is deteriorating once again, so will remain locked for a season.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: If the TOPIC can be discussed without degenerating again to personal slights, snarky belittling comments, and inuendos, the thread will remain open, as of now. If not, further steps may be taken without further notice. Thank you all for your cooperation.......

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Thought this was interesting as we were talking about Sirach a couple of pages back.....this is an excerpt from Wikipedia....another section of the article mentions that Jesus may have been quoting from it in a few passages......

"The work of Ben Sira is presently known through various versions, which scholars still struggle to disentangle.

The Greek version of Ben Sira is found in many codices of the Septuagint. An English version of the Septuagint text can be found here.

In the early 20th century several substantial Hebrew texts of Ben Sira, copied in the eleventh and twelfth centuries CE, were found in the Cairo geniza (a synagogue storage room for damaged manuscripts). Although none of these manuscripts is complete, together they provide the text for about two-thirds of the book of Ben Sira. According to Frederic Kenyon, this shows that the book was originally written in Hebrew. (Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts. Rev. by A.W. Adams. London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1958. 83.) That Sirach was originally written in Hebrew may be of some significance for the biblical canon. The book was accepted into the canon of the Old Testament by Catholicism and Eastern Orthdoxy but not by Judaism or Protestantism.

In the 1950s and 1960s three copies of portions of Ben Sira were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The largest scroll was discovered at Masada, the famous Jewish fortress destroyed in 73 CE. The earliest of these scrolls (2Q18) has been dated to the second part of the 1st century BCE, approximately 150 years after Ben Sira was first composed. These early Hebrew texts are in substantial agreement with the Hebrew texts discovered in Cairo, although there are numerous minor textual variants. With these findings, scholars are now more confident that the Cairo texts are reliable witnesses to the Hebrew original.

[LS]

Thank you Cardinal - that's awesome!  Sirach is my favorite of the deuterocanonical books; Wisdom is really great too.   :girlheart: