What's so bad about annihilation

[Beloved Servant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnei94grw8k&feature=fvw

[thinktank]

Quote from: thinktank on November 23, 2010, 11:24:05 PM
Having knowledge of THE Salvation of ALL, YOU think YOURSELF to be BE RIGHTEOUS

No, my friend and brother, we think ourselves  thankful and humble that Our Father has such great love that He would gather all His children, obedient and disobedient back for the feast. Luk 15:24  because this my son was dead, and did live again, and he was lost, and was found; and they began to be merry.
I love you Thinktank.

love you to micah  :bigGrin:

[micah7:9]

Im not quite understanding the friction, I am the one that comes on cynical, sarcastic, and terse... I am hurt.

Annihilate.. to bring to nothing. 1) to destroy completely; put out of existance; demolish 2) to consider or cause to be of no importance or without effect; nullify 3) to kill 4) to conquer decisively; crush

All of these descriptions seem very much in line with what the Lord, Jehovah has in mind. I must confess, and am quite thankfull that He is "ANNIHILATING" me right now! I am all smiles. :grin:

[Molly]

2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

NOW THE DESCRIPTION OF AN EVENT

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

THAT DAY

1)The Lord Jesus Christ will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

2)He will take vengeance on those that do not  know God or believe the Gospel

3)They will be punished with aionios destruction from the presence of the Lord. [aionious separation from the face of God]

4)The Lord will be glorified in his saints


This will denote the beginning of a new Age.


11 In which thing also we pray evermore for you, that our God make you worthy to his calling, and fill all the will of his goodness [and fulfill all the will of his goodness], and the work of faith in virtue;

    12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be clarified in you, and ye in him, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [after the grace of our God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ].

--2Thess 2

[Molly]

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

--2 Thess 1

[who] "shall be punished"
tinō dikē


G5099
τίνω
tinō
tee'-no
Strengthened for a primary word τίω tiō (which is only used as an alternate in certain tenses); to pay a price, that is, as a penalty: - be punished with.

G1349
δίκη
dikē
dee'-kay
Probably from G1166; right (as self evident), that is, justice (the principle, a decision, or its execution): - judgment, punish, vengeance.


"with everlasting"

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

"destruction"

G3639
ὄλεθρος
olethros
ol'-eth-ros
From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.


"from"

G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

"the presence"

G4383
πρόσωπον
prosōpon
pros'-o-pon
From G4314 and ὤψ ōps (the visage; from G3700); the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men's) person, presence.


of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

[Truthseeker]

2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

NOW THE DESCRIPTION OF AN EVENT

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

THAT DAY

1)The Lord Jesus Christ will be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels

2)He will take vengeance on those that do not  know God or believe the Gospel

3)They will be punished with aionios destruction from the presence of the Lord. [aionious separation from the face of God]

4)The Lord will be glorified in his saints


This will denote the beginning of a new Age.


11 In which thing also we pray evermore for you, that our God make you worthy to his calling, and fill all the will of his goodness [and fulfill all the will of his goodness], and the work of faith in virtue;

    12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ be clarified in you, and ye in him, by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [after the grace of our God, and of the Lord Jesus Christ].

--2Thess 2

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
*********************
Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
*******************************
Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

I was born as an Esau, instead of a Jacob so there isn't much I can do about it anyway  :sigh:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Esau is the carnal nature.....we were all born with an Esau to overcome. Blessings...

[LS]

:cloud9: Esau is the carnal nature.....we were all born with an Esau to overcome. Blessings...

:thumbsup:

[Molly]

Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

The Law will serve Grace--this is the prophecy.



22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

--Gal 4

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Shawn...  :cloud9:

You requested that I apologize for ACCUSING you of not noting Scriptural support... I did not ACCUSE you of anything. The post I addressed was DEVOID of Scriptural support.  I later indicated that it was an OVERSIGHT of mine that you had previously noted that Scriptural support... that notation (of oversight) is all you are due, and all you shall get from me... hope its enough.  :winkgrin:

Now as was my intent (now that I have time to do so), ...here is my response your "Scriptural support"... in which I shall use the WORD  in making that "address"...

BTW... I will be waiting upon YOUR ADDRESS of the list I provided... YOU in this thread, brother Shawn...   :winkgrin:

Php 3:18 For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction.

Destruction is the WRATH of GOD, come against the UNGODLINESS OF MEN -- Rom 1:18 -- GOD LOVES (and in His UNCHANGING way, always will love) the WORLD -- John 3:16 -- so any "destruction" that is manifest and necessary, in any given one... is for that ones own good -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- and is the course of that ones, SALVATION experience... which is the WORK of GOD who works ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11 -- to (lovingly) DELETE that which is unacceptable in each one -- Heb 12:29 -- a FIRE which we are AMIDST at present -- Acts 17:28

2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

The "saints" of God are only "saints" because GOD has authored FAITH in them (as well as FINISHES it in them) -- Heb 12:2 -- God does not have RESPECT of persons... so ALL men shall bow at the knee (in worship) and confess with the tongue (in acknowledgement) of JESUS CHRIST -- Phil 2:10-11 -- Rom 14:11 -- Isaiah 45:23 -- which CONFESSION (unto Salvation -- Rom 10:13) -- can only be done by the POWER of the Holy Spirit in them -- 1 Cor 12:3 -- the very same "confession" that YOU percieve that YOU have done, in becoming within the FAITH of JESUS CHRIST  which has been authored in YOU... not of yourself, so that of course you already know (or should know) ...that you may NOT BOAST of it -- Eph 2:9

The "destruction" that takes place in these others you observe,  ...will be done in the very same manner as you percieve it was "done" in you... Only difference, yours was "done" in the privacy of your heart... dispensing your shame privately... However, the shame which is to come for MANY, ...is NOT PRIVATE and that SHAME shall APPEAR in those UNCLOTHED in CHRIST  -- Rev 3:18 -- the result of the dispensing of that "shame" is that SAME as it was in YOU... or I... for WE are due NO GLORY whatsoever, all GLORY is due the SAVIOR and His Father...

Also the "destruction" which occurs in them (and has hopefully already occured in you) is ETERNAL, for as it shall not appear in YOU as you "RE-ENTER" the ETERNAL, ...as well, it shall not appear in the ETERNAL setting in them either... being DESTROYED, by the conclusion of the LAST DAY -- 1 Cor 3:11-15

2Pe 2:12 But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13 suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing

FIRST --- GOD shall not bring harm to those who do NOT "UNDERSTAND"...  He shall in JUDGMENT of that lack of "UNDERSTANDING" (which brought forth acts of EVIL and WICKEDNESS)... Manifest the "UNDERSTANDING" of RIGHTEOUSNESS" which is EMBODIED in the FAITH of JESUS CHRIST -- Gal 2:20 -- Rom 6:6-11 -- Gal 6:14 -- Col 3:1-3 --  which had NO RESPECT of PERSONS -- Acts 10:34 -- Prov 28:21 (& 8 others) -- and is a FAITH which is NOT your own (for such is VANITY), ...rather is CHRIST which has authored HIMSELF in you.  :dontknow:

Before this "understanding" of RIGHTEOUSNESS (FAITH of JESUS CHRIST) was introduced by His authoring of HIMSELF in YOU, ..."YOU WERE", as you percieve THEY ARE"...

SECOND --- Because you percieve that "WRONGDOING" which YOU have done...  was forgiven in the GLORY of the Salvation of CHRIST  who died for YOU,  ...and which you also percieve said forgiveness, has been GIVEN to you... it shall be given to them as well...

ALL WRONGDOING, is "destroyed" and replaced with the "RIGHTDOINGS" of CHRIST... and the PEACE  which the Blood of His Cross has provided -- Col 1:20 -- restoring ALL THINGS (not just "some" things, ..."you" for instance, and not "OTHERS")...   :dontknow:

The SHEEP do not SAVE themselves, nor do THEY "correct" ANYTHING in themselves (that which is "WRONG", in themselves).  The WORD  is given for CORRECTION -- 2 Tim 3:16 -- John 8:32 -- and it is the WORD  which "corrects" wrong, and restores it to CORRECTNESS,  ...FREEING it from the bondage of SIN and the FLESH of death...  :dontknow:

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Those who are endeavoring to minister CHRIST  cannot resort to SIN, and minister CHRIST... That is a contradiction in terms... How can EVIL minister GOOD?

Those who "have FAITH, do not "have FAITH" of themselves... the FAITH that preserves their souls is NOT of themselves... it is the work of GOD via CHRIST  that produces such "preservation"... those who have been CHOSEN to minister, did not "choose themselves" -- John 15:16 -- on the contrary... said FAITH was ORDAINED to be so -- Eph 2:10 -- the "building" (house) of GOD... not of beings which are SINFUL and UNBELIVING by nature.  Overesteeming themselves, ...The HOUSE of GOD, is that which is "Built" not by the hand of MAN... but by YHVH  GOD.  :dontknow:

Act 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"

Don't know where this was gleaned from (what version), but the word NEVER is not in the original language...

Which word is the english word, ..."Never"... translated from, Shawn?

Acts 13:40-41 -- Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of the prophets; ...behold ye DESPISERS, and wonder, and perish; for I work a work in your days, A WORK WHICH YE SHALL IN NO WISE BELIEVE THOUGH A MAN DECLARE IT UNTO YOU...

Even though the (perfect and GLORIFIED) Salvation of ALL MEN is given unto you...  MOD EDIT... and though it has been DECLARED unto you here at TENTMAKER,  ...that "WORK" goes on in you, ...MOD EDIT

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: die. the soul that sinneth, it shall die

What "soul" has not sinned, Shawn?  And what "soul" shall NOT DIE because of said involvement in SIN? -- Heb 9:27

Shall you not DIE, Shawn?   :dontknow:  If you have SINNED... then in the DAY you did... you DIED... just as did ADAM -- Gen 2:17 -- and you shall DIE the 2nd death as well... for YOUR physical body is on its way to the grave as we speak... :nod:

Sir 15:14 When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15 If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16 There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17 Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

2Ma 7:14 When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."

This portion is not "Scripture" so it shall therefore be ignored by me, in this address of Scripture...  :cloud9:

I will stop here and continue in PART TWO...

willieH  :cloud9:

[willieH]

willieH: More...

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."

All men are WICKED...  :dontknow:  There are NONE "RIGHTEOUS", ...no shawn, NOT ONE! -- Rom 3:10-12 -- Psalm 14:1-3

Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;

The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Better make sure this isn't speaking about YOU and the "ET or ED" that YOU endorse.  :dontknow:

Psalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."

The "enemies" of YHVH  are the UNGODLINESSES and UNRIGHTEOUSNESSES ...OF... Man -- Rom 1:18 -- GOD loves the Human race... and will ALWAYS love it...  Mal 3:6 -- John 3:16

Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."

ALL have SINNED Shawn (including you), ...and come short of the Glory of God -- Rom 3:23 -- it is TRANSGRESSIONS of men which GOD shall destroy... the MEN shall be saved even so BY FIRE -- 1 Cor 3:15

Psa 73:27 But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.

The "eye for eye" thing is over, Shawn... get used to it... We are to pray, bless and love our enemies... for if we are indeed within and PART of the GRACE which is JESUS CHRIST... then we JOIN HIM in the NON-CONDEMNATION for which He was SENT -- John 3:17 -- Matt 5:44-48

Matt 5:48 -- Be ye THEREFORE PERFECT, even as your Father in Heaven is PERFECT -- How?  Forgiving enemies, praying for those that HATE, DESPISE, USE and CURSE you Shawn...

Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Yes... He will destroy the "wicked" IN men... not the men... He is about SAVING men, NOT destroying them.  He is about destroying that which, WITHIN MEN, ...DESTROYS MEN.

Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

That which GOD consumes is EVIL... within the FIRE that is THIS LIFE.  That which you, I or anyone does outside of CHRIST is destroyed... but the life which HE GAVE, is preserved IN HIM. -- 1 Cor 15:22 -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- It is the SIN which is destoyed Shawn...

Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.

EDIT  -  This verse is speaking of the WORK of GOD, that is about BLOTTING OUT Evil, ...and OVERTAKING that "enemy", ...and UPROOTING the cities in which it is DONE, ...and REMOVING the memory of the deeds they have done...  :dontknow:

Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

The Harlot system has taught you well, brother Shawn... and unfortunately you have not discovered that it is THEY which are amidst the deception of NOT LOVING the TRUTH, rather OPPOSING it for FEW there be that FIND it, and even FEWER which preach it...

The "System", ...being MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- coming in His Name... preaching LIES to the WORLD (via the LYING THREATS of "eternal HELL" or "ED"), ...seeking to teach others to FEAR LOVE, which on the CONTRARY  -- 1 John 4:8 -- is all the about CASTING OUT of FEAR, not the gathering of FEAR within the heart! -- 1 John 4:18

Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Yes... as I have already noted... that "destruction" IS taking place in those who truly "BELIEVE"... and yet to come IN those who "believe" in themselves and their own "righteous works" (such as their decision for CHRIST  as "their Savior"), or those that do not "BELIEVE" at all...

BELIEVERS are known as the ones who "come in the name" and unfortunately, ...MANY "BELIEVERS" (for they have called JESUS "Lord" which can only be done by the Holy Spirit -- 1 Cor 12:3)  ...shall hear CHRIST  say: 

"depart from Me, ye which work INIQUITY"... better make sure you are believing the right things, brother Shawn.  :sigh:

Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.

Anyone can list verses... Maybe it is time to be honest...

How many of these that you have listed in this post, were found OF YOURSELF and your personal studies of GOD and His WORD, Shawn?  If you recieve information from others, and do not seek the meanings of them by PERSONALLY and PRAYERFULLY comparing that information to what IS WRITTEN, ...then the FAITH you claim to have has been handed to you, not born of YOUR OWN PURSUIT (seeking) of God and His WORD.

Only YOU know, ...but the more you list, the more I wonder about the amount of it that YOU have actually discovered for yourself, and the amount of it that has been given to you and you have readily adopted as your own belief, without pursuing the meanings in these texts YOURSELF.  :sigh:

We are rewarded for the respect of YHVH's mandate of SOWING and REAPING... and in abusing that mandate... do the inhabitants of Earth, find DESTRUCTION... just take a look around you Shawn...

AIDS, CANCER, WAR, Drug Addictions, Sexual perversions, and much more,  ...all running amuck, AND GROWING!!  ...the marks of the SOWING of Evil is everywhere and in everyone. Do you have SIN, Shawn?  If you say you DO NOT, then read this:  1 John 1:8

Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.

Yes... as every KNEE shall bow to RIGHTEOUSNESS and CONFESS JESUS as Lord  -- Phil 2:10-11 -- shall this be done.

Psalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

EDIT - The "fruits of evil" SHALL cease, Shawn!  In ALL MEN... for ALL MEN are as much IN CHRIST (life/righteousness) --- as they are IN ADAM (death/evil) -- read it Shawn:

1 Cor 15:22 ---  As ...IN ADAM, all DIE... so ...IN CHRIST,  shall all [same "all", Shawn] be MADE ALIVE

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.

Again... once ALL have bowed at the knee and confessed with the tongue... "sinners" will have been COMPLETELY ELIMINATED!  :boogie:

Obadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

CORRECT!  They shall BE (which is in the GRACE and "righteousness" of GOD -- Isaiah 26:9) -- as though they have NOT BEEN -- ("all have SINNED and come short of the Glory of GOD -- Rom 3:23)

Think about it... how can something --- "BE" --- and not "BE" -- THAT is nuts.  How can something BE as though it has NOT BEEN...  If it has NOT BEEN, than it can no longer be considered as "being"

That which is MADE by GOD, is ETERNAL.  ALL THINGS were MADE by the WORD... therefore they are PART OF IT... No part of the WORD  of GOD can EVER... "NOT BE"...

Otherwise the WORD becomes a changing entity which will note SCRIPTURE to be FALSE -- Heb 13:8 -- Mal 3:6 -- James 1:17 --  If CHRIST  is the essence of ALL THINGS, and ALL THINGS came from Him and ALL things CONSIST of Him, and ALL things are FOR Him (regardless of those "things" being -- information, premises, varying forms of power, living beings, etc.) -- Col 1:16 -- John 1:3 -- how can ANY "THING" cease to "BE" which EMERGED FROM HIM who NEVER changes and ALWAYS ...IS...?

Here it is in a nutshell MOD EDIT Shawn... The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is a LIVING KNOWLEDGE for it emerges from and originates IN YHVH who is LIVING in every capacity that HE IS...  and therefore it shall ALWAYS "BE"...

That the knowledge of EVIL is NOT PRACTICED in ETERNITY, but does not eliminate that KNOWLEDGE from "BEING"... for crying out loud, it is the PURPOSE of YHVH  to reveal it to man... and thereby BE "ALL in ALL"... For part of HIS KNOWLEDGE contains GOOD and EVIL...  :dontknow:

If we had no revelation of GOOD and EVIL... then we would NOT be "made" in the IMAGE of GOD, which KNOWS both... and contains COMPLETE information of BOTH... and PART of the WORD  and the Heart of YHVH  would remain UNREVEALED and He could therefore NOT ever be considered "ALL in ALL"... for SOME of Him, is not revealed.

Because one has the knowledge of MURDER, does not mean because one abstains from manifesting MURDER, that the understanding, premise or power of MURDER is not present with one... nor does it mean that MURDER as a power and/or knowledge, ceases to "be" because it is no longer practiced or manifest.

GOD is able to do ANYTHING, and there is NO ONE to impede Him in any way... however... That He is ABLE to do anything... does not mean that He shall DO ANYTHING... He of Himself is the EMBODIEMENT of truth and LOVE... that which is encased within LOVE and TRUTH... does not "murder" just because one... is "able"... eh?  :dontknow:

Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Actually when you remove INSERTED words... this verse reads significantly differently:

For yet a little while, and the wicked not; yea thou shall diligently consider [his/"its] place, and it not  :dontknow:

This does not refer to men... but the wickedness they practice.  Also it is pertinent that pronouns are often offerings that are NOT depicted specifically (as they appear in translated text) except at the descretion of the one translating. 

For instance, ...the word AUTOS in the Greek can represent he, she, it, and all variations of these. That a given sentence contains "HE" instead of "IT" as translated by men... does not mean the translation is accurate.  At times it may be found valid, at others it may not.  REASON must be enjoined to the premises of the WORD  in order for that validity to be TRUTH.

I am not a Hebrew or Greek scholar, but in any case... the honorable attempts made by translating scholars, at KNOWING exactly what ANCIENTS actually were saying is VERY MUCH a DIRE predicament, as someone 2K-4K years from now trying to decipher what "GAY" actually meant in the 20th century in a given phrase! 

In the '40's" GAY meant HAPPY, and in the "80's" GAY meant HOMOSEXUAL and in the "90's" GAY came to mean LAME...  :dontknow:   Someone in the distant FUTURE, reading a 20th century writing might find quite a dilemma as to the actual meanings of English words of today, which are commonly applied in various scenarios within a given writing.   :dontknow:

There are quite likely existent writings today, which note a person or persons to be "GAY" in several instances, using it in these varying capacities... and the "future reader" will (as with the Greek pronoun AUTOS)... have to make a "guess" as to which meaning of "GAY" was intended in a given phrase... get my drift? :dunno:

36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

?

Psa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed; The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.

Once GOD redeems the entire human race... that which was WICKED in any... is "cut off"... no longer, ..."is"...  :nod:

Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

This encompasses ALL SELFISH, EVIL practicing human beings... which EVIL is DESTROYED with the revelation of RIGHTEOUSNESS... When you and I eventually become FRIENDS in the Eternal realm... the back & forths we have experienced here will seem pretty doggone petty...  The FREINDSHIP "destroying" the negativities in all their varieties. :nod:

The GRACE and PERFECTION of LOVE, ...destroys HATRED and INDIFFERENCE by the PERMEATING presence of ITSELF.

Psa 28:5 They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.

Reading the entirety of the setting/context of this text...

When you discovered the revelation of who and what YOU are, as compared to CHRIST,  did you not cry out like this, Shawn?

What man is disassociated with this description, Shawn?  Before you BELIEVED... did you do anything contrary to the laws of GOD?  Or to the deeds of "His hands"?  Were YOU living a life which might be seen as unblameable?

Before you HEARD God... was His voice SILENT unto you?

And... for goodness, sake!  to say this world/scenario and its doings will NEVER BE REBUILT is a no-brainer!  Who would want to come back to this mess? :omg: 

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

So glad you listed this particular set of Scriptures... it is of my favorites... THIS is the Lake of FIRE that we are IN NOW... Death and the Grave (hades) are definitely PART of THIS scenario... and Whoever did not at ANY MOMENT, "BELIEVE" was not written in the Book of LIFE... for DEATH was appointed to him/her... ALL are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32

Rev 21:8 But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

The word (your version above) uses as "UNFAITHFUL", is "UNBELIEVING" (which is actually quite decieving, inferring that one is an unfaithful betrayer, which is NOT really the meaning of this word)...

That said, even being ANGRY with a brother is a form of MURDER, and whoever has had a girlfriend, boyfriend, favorite singer, etc... has "idolized"...  Or those who have looked upon another in lust (which is everyone that is honest), is also a qualified candidate for the LOF...

And what of being FEARFUL (for the word in the Greek does not mean "coward")?  Do you not TEACH others to "DREAD" the Almighty? :rolleye: 

You teach them YOUR own position, do you not?  Presenting them HELL/ET or ANNHILATION/ED... which are RIDDEN and PERMEATED with FEAR!  And then you suppose yourself not involved with FEAR or DREAD?   :mshock:

Actually this verse describes the guilty and WICKED perspective of the HEARTS OF ALL MEN which are DESPARATELY wicked ABOVE ALL THINGS!  -- Jer 17:9 -- before YHVH  God's WORD  changes them, and FREE's them from FEAR! -- 1 John 4:18

There is not ONE CATEGORY that YOU (as a member of ADAM), can escape in the account of your own life... and neither can I... :mnah:   Neither should we seek to avoid this!  It is the PURPOSE of GOD to involve us... MAKING BOTH the vessel of DISHONOR as well as HONOR -- Rom 9:21

Think about it... Now I will wait upon your explanation of the texts that I have supplied for you to "address"...  Which SCRIPTURALLY support the GOSPEL of PEACE -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- not FEAR...  :happygrin:

willieH  :cloud9:

[LS]

How interesting (but sadly not surprising) that your observations rarely look at the actual  passage - its context and meaning, nor the words used to translate them - to show that they honestly might mean something other than what I apparently see in them, or Shawn sees in them.

Instead, you begin with the belief that US is true and use other verses + williH reasoning to try to claim that they can't mean what they (appear to me) to say. 

And that's only a few of the verses ... for others, you don't even remotely talk about the verse itself, but instead insult Shawn   :mshock:  This is only one example:

Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

The Harlot system has taught you well, brother Shawn... and unfortunately you have not discovered that it is THEY which are amidst the deception of NOT LOVING the TRUTH, rather OPPOSING it for FEW there be that FIND it, and even FEWER which preach it...

The "System", ...being MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- coming in His Name... preaching LIES to the WORLD (via the LYING THREATS of "eternal HELL" or "ED"), ...seeking to teach others to FEAR LOVE, which on the CONTRARY  -- 1 John 4:8 -- is all the about CASTING OUT of FEAR, not the gathering of FEAR within the heart! -- 1 John 4:18

I just want to make the observation that Shawn isn't quarrelsome - I don't think I've ever seen him argue over meanings with others. I've only seen him explain what he sees, why he sees it, and I think he has asked many questions and has had some great conversations with people who are willing to discuss US with him in a meaningful way. I've learned a lot by reading their thoughtful conversations with Shawn, and I've appreciated it very much.

I find it hard to read posts that are insulting and quarrelsome so I don't expect to return to this thread, but I hope Shawn doesn't feel like your tone & insults are a reflection on him. I think we can all be mindful of this passage: "A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness."  :thumbsup:

[legoman]

Hi LS,

:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full.  Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason.  What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?

To summarize, the main point is this.

Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.

But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully.  Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word?  Be honest here.  WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS.  WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.

So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell?  Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.

Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.

This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.

[legoman]

As for your thoughts on the verses I brought up.  I think that is well thought out and a very compelling argument.  I do think that to be a very reasonable possibility.  It doesn't seem contrived and it does make sense to me.   

So just curious if that has changed your mind on anything?  Essentially I see 2 options:

1.  Assume the wicked are eternally destroyed (which might include yourself) and try to excuse the verses that say God will have all men to be saved.

2.  Realize that the wicked are destroyed when the wickedness is removed from them, thus harmonizing with the verses that say God will have all men to be saved.


Only one of these options takes into account all of scripture IMHO.

[shawn]

Hi LS,

:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full.  Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason.  What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?

To summarize, the main point is this.

Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.

But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully.  Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word?  Be honest here.  WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS.  WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.

So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell?  Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.

Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.

This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.

First, I rarely read or respond to Willie's posts.  His style isn't for everyone and I would be part of that crowd.  I'm glad that his posts bless someone.  I wouldn't know if he insulted me because I don't read them.

Second, who said I am an ED guy?  In post after post on this forum I have said, I don't believe in eternal torture but don't know between ED and US.  What I do know is everytime I make points from scripture supporting ED I have a group of members who are as you put it "blunt".  They obviously don't care for any opinion outside of what they believe.  I find that unfortunate.  I know many members have been offended by the same these same members who don't appear to care about anyones feelings but their own.

Now, onto your point.  Yes, we have all fallen short, we have all sinned but clearly by scripture those who believe in the name of Jesus are forgiven and saved.  There is no condemnation for the believer as we are covered by the blood of Christ. 

And honestly, I don't appreciate your tone as well.  I am not "preaching" anything.  I am making points from scripture and was hoping to read some calm well thought out responses to the verses LS brought up.  I guess that was expecting too much.  I am searching...I don't claim to have the answers.

I am starting to let this bother me...so I believe it's time for me to take a nice long break from these boards. 

[shawn]

How interesting (but sadly not surprising) that your observations rarely look at the actual  passage - its context and meaning, nor the words used to translate them - to show that they honestly might mean something other than what I apparently see in them, or Shawn sees in them.

Instead, you begin with the belief that US is true and use other verses + williH reasoning to try to claim that they can't mean what they (appear to me) to say. 

And that's only a few of the verses ... for others, you don't even remotely talk about the verse itself, but instead insult Shawn   :mshock:  This is only one example:

Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

The Harlot system has taught you well, brother Shawn... and unfortunately you have not discovered that it is THEY which are amidst the deception of NOT LOVING the TRUTH, rather OPPOSING it for FEW there be that FIND it, and even FEWER which preach it...

The "System", ...being MANY -- Matt 7:22-23 -- coming in His Name... preaching LIES to the WORLD (via the LYING THREATS of "eternal HELL" or "ED"), ...seeking to teach others to FEAR LOVE, which on the CONTRARY  -- 1 John 4:8 -- is all the about CASTING OUT of FEAR, not the gathering of FEAR within the heart! -- 1 John 4:18

I just want to make the observation that Shawn isn't quarrelsome - I don't think I've ever seen him argue over meanings with others. I've only seen him explain what he sees, why he sees it, and I think he has asked many questions and has had some great conversations with people who are willing to discuss US with him in a meaningful way. I've learned a lot by reading their thoughtful conversations with Shawn, and I've appreciated it very much.

I find it hard to read posts that are insulting and quarrelsome so I don't expect to return to this thread, but I hope Shawn doesn't feel like your tone & insults are a reflection on him. I think we can all be mindful of this passage: "A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant, correcting opponents with kindness."  :thumbsup:

But yet we are just products of the "harlot system".  Nah nothing offensive about that eh.  [MOD EDIT]Anyways, I know who I am in Christ and thankfully do not need Willie's approval.  Not sure why I even let him bother me today.  I wouldn't have even read it except you quoted it.  And I do read all of your posts.  :)

I appreciate your kind words.  I do try not to be quarrelsome.  I do work on my approach to debate and have had to apologize a time or two for getting too emotionally charged.  So now, when I feel that coming on I just back off for awhile.  It's probably time for a little vacation from this place.

[legoman]

Hi LS,

:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full.  Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason.  What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?

To summarize, the main point is this.

Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.

But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully.  Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word?  Be honest here.  WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS.  WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.

So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell?  Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.

Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.

This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.

First, I rarely read or respond to Willie's posts.  His style isn't for everyone and I would be part of that crowd.  I'm glad that his posts bless someone.  I wouldn't know if he insulted me because I don't read them.

Second, who said I am an ED guy?  In post after post on this forum I have said, I don't believe in eternal torture but don't know between ED and US.  What I do know is everytime I make points from scripture supporting ED I have a group of members who are as you put it "blunt".  They obviously don't care for any opinion outside of what they believe.  I find that unfortunate.  I know many members have been offended by the same these same members who don't appear to care about anyones feelings but their own.

Now, onto your point.  Yes, we have all fallen short, we have all sinned but clearly by scripture those who believe in the name of Jesus are forgiven and saved.  There is no condemnation for the believer as we are covered by the blood of Christ. 

Simple question:
So why does Christ's blood cover you but not whole world?  Were you not once an unbeliever?  Is it not possible that all mankind will come to believe?

And honestly, I don't appreciate your tone as well.  I am not "preaching" anything.  I am making points from scripture and was hoping to read some calm well thought out responses to the verses LS brought up.  I guess that was expecting too much.  I am searching...I don't claim to have the answers.

I am starting to let this bother me...so I believe it's time for me to take a nice long break from these boards.

Don't let it bother you... just take it for what it is.  Perhaps you have misread my "tone", because I didn't even realize I had one.  And I thought there was plenty of calm well though out responses to the verses - did I miss a verse?

If you are unsure between ED and US, keep searching.  It just seemed to me you were presenting ED/annihilation.  If all you are saying is "Gee guys, there seems to be these verses that promote annihilation, I don't understand - what do we do with them?" then that is fine - I know for myself I understand how they fit with universal salvation, as I explained.

Hope that made sense, no offense intended.  I guess at a certain point you have to realize the possibility (at least I have for myself) that universal salvation can harmonize every verse in the bible.  If you have more verses you are unsure of, post'em.

[Lefein]

Just some observations, that I feel the need to express;  And Shawn, please correct me if I am wrong, or affirm were I am right regarding you if you are willing. ^_^

Shawn I don't believe is trying to tear down the doctrine (teaching drawn from the scriptures) of Universal Reconciliation.  If I may be bold, and this forum knows I am bold as brass - I think Shawn is playing the advocate for LS, a fellow sister (UR, or not - it does not matter one wit) who has been nearly surrounded on all sides here.

[MOD EDIT]

I understand that it is difficult on a forum not to surround, especially considering the nature of the problem, and I cannot speak for Shawn as he himself can, but it is my hope to see that neither Shawn, nor LS are mistreated - even unknowingly, and there has been mistreatment perceived enough to be mistreatment.  If there were none; LS would not have posted talking about insults, and she would not have felt like she has put her foot in the hornet's nest (as seen from my very own prayer thread).

We are supposed to present the truth in Love, not with raised up stringers at the feet of our beloved brethren who have not shown themselves to be violent members needing correction.  We are not serpents, and scorpions, so I think we can put away our venom, and stingers, and fangs...I would hope we would, and I'd hope we would not act like we are - unless we want the body of Christ to crush us beneath his heel - and I say this, even those in the Harlot System are true, yes True Christians, despite their doctrines - whether they be annihiliation, eternal damnation, or otherwise - so long as they are indeed making progress with the Father to be his children, showing fruit - not leaves.

[MOD EDIT]

That said; I support LS's observation, especially that of Shawn not being quarrelsome, I saw only a glimpse of the before - but the after has been interesting, peaceful, and a strange sort of good change. 

Suffice to say; he is not a child of the harlot system, and it is not fair to call him one.  [MOD EDIT]

There are better ways to be blunt, and better targets to be blunt towards before turning the club to others - the self, is an excellent target first.  I find that when I've beaten myself sufficiently with my own weapon...I feel less inclined to want to beat someone else with it, and not saying I am perfect and never do, only that I am not so eager to wail on someone with something I know very well hurts.

We must remember with the scriptures; Scriptures are not roots (my  :2c:) they are stems that grow up from roots deep within, that themselves grow up from seeds planted by various sources.  Some are from God, others are from traditions of angels, devils, or men, others are from our own selves.  None of us is a perfect field.
__ __ __

Now, that having been said;

LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing.  Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer.  The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)

Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism.  :cloud9:

[micah7:9]

Hi LS,

:dontknow:
I don't really see willieh insulting Shawn in the part you posted, nor in the his post in full.  Granted willieh is a blunt in what he writes, but he presents his position clearly and truthfully with logic and reason.  What is the insult willie has cast at Shawn?

To summarize, the main point is this.

Shawn has posted a bunch of verses saying the wicked are destroyed, transgressors are destroyed, unrighteous are destroyed, those who despise the word are destroyed, etc. Thus concludes that the wicked will be eternally dead.

But now we need to examine ourselves truthfully.  Who among us has not been wicked, has not transgressed, has not been unrighteous, has not despised the word?  Be honest here.  WE ALL HAVE DONE THESE THINGS.  WE ALL STILL DO THESE THINGS TO A POINT.

So are you willing to admit according to your own doctrinal beliefs that YOU YOURSELF WILL BE DESTROYED and either go to eternal death or eternal hell?  Because that is the doctrine you are preaching.

Take no insult or offense at this prospect, but that is the logical conclusion from your own argument.

This is part of the issue of what the Harlot system teaches (that willieh referred to) - condemning others while excusing itself.

First, I rarely read or respond to Willie's posts.  His style isn't for everyone and I would be part of that crowd.  I'm glad that his posts bless someone.  I wouldn't know if he insulted me because I don't read them.

Second, who said I am an ED guy?  In post after post on this forum I have said, I don't believe in eternal torture but don't know between ED and US.  What I do know is everytime I make points from scripture supporting ED I have a group of members who are as you put it "blunt".  They obviously don't care for any opinion outside of what they believe.  I find that unfortunate.  I know many members have been offended by the same these same members who don't appear to care about anyones feelings but their own.

Now, onto your point.  Yes, we have all fallen short, we have all sinned but clearly by scripture those who believe in the name of Jesus are forgiven and saved.  There is no condemnation for the believer as we are covered by the blood of Christ. 

Simple question:
So why does Christ's blood cover you but not whole world?  Were you not once an unbeliever?  Is it not possible that all mankind will come to believe?

And honestly, I don't appreciate your tone as well.  I am not "preaching" anything.  I am making points from scripture and was hoping to read some calm well thought out responses to the verses LS brought up.  I guess that was expecting too much.  I am searching...I don't claim to have the answers.

I am starting to let this bother me...so I believe it's time for me to take a nice long break from these boards.

Don't let it bother you... just take it for what it is.  Perhaps you have misread my "tone", because I didn't even realize I had one.  And I thought there was plenty of calm well though out responses to the verses - did I miss a verse?

If you are unsure between ED and US, keep searching.  It just seemed to me you were presenting ED/annihilation.  If all you are saying is "Gee guys, there seems to be these verses that promote annihilation, I don't understand - what do we do with them?" then that is fine - I know for myself I understand how they fit with universal salvation, as I explained.

Hope that made sense, no offense intended.  I guess at a certain point you have to realize the possibility (at least I have for myself) that universal salvation can harmonize every verse in the bible.  If you have more verses you are unsure of, post'em.

Amen

[Cardinal]

 :sigh: As a reminder to all......

For these one warning may be given and then if repeated, you will be banned without further explanation.  The ban may be of time duration but rather expect it to be permanent.

1. Trolling.
2. Baiting.
3. Flaming.
4. Calling out any member's views/opinions as stupid, dumb, crazy etc. viz. insults.
5. Public criticism of moderation decisions.
6. Starting a new thread of a similar topic as one that is recently locked.
7. Outright "trashing" of the scriptures - "they are untrue", "X writer of scripture was an imposter, not inspired", etc.
8. Initiating or engaging in a debate on the "free will/sovereignty" or Trinity topics - especially directly continually using those terms.  It has caused too much strife on the boards and is not allowed.  (Discuss your point of view without pushing those "hot buttons".)

These rules may be amended from time to time so keep up to date with them.

[shawn]

Just some observations, that I feel the need to express;  And Shawn, please correct me if I am wrong, or affirm were I am right regarding you if you are willing. ^_^

Shawn I don't believe is trying to tear down the doctrine (teaching drawn from the scriptures) of Universal Reconciliation.  If I may be bold, and this forum knows I am bold as brass - I think Shawn is playing the advocate for LS, a fellow sister (UR, or not - it does not matter one wit) who has been nearly surrounded on all sides here.

I understand that it is difficult on a forum not to surround, especially considering the nature of the problem, and I cannot speak for Shawn as he himself can, but it is my hope to see that neither Shawn, nor LS are mistreated - even unknowingly, and there has been mistreatment perceived enough to be mistreatment.  If there were none; LS would not have posted talking about insults, and she would not have felt like she has put her foot in the hornet's nest (as seen from my very own prayer thread).

We are supposed to present the truth in Love, not with raised up stringers at the feet of our beloved brethren who have not shown themselves to be violent members needing correction.  We are not serpents, and scorpions, so I think we can put away our venom, and stingers, and fangs...I would hope we would, and I'd hope we would not act like we are - unless we want the body of Christ to crush us beneath his heel - and I say this, even those in the Harlot System are true, yes True Christians, despite their doctrines - whether they be annihiliation, eternal damnation, or otherwise - so long as they are indeed making progress with the Father to be his children, showing fruit - not leaves.

That said; I support LS's observation, especially that of Shawn not being quarrelsome, I saw only a glimpse of the before - but the after has been interesting, peaceful, and a strange sort of good change. 

Suffice to say; he is not a child of the harlot system, and it is not fair to call him one. 

There are better ways to be blunt, and better targets to be blunt towards before turning the club to others - the self, is an excellent target first.  I find that when I've beaten myself sufficiently with my own weapon...I feel less inclined to want to beat someone else with it, and not saying I am perfect and never do, only that I am not so eager to wail on someone with something I know very well hurts.

We must remember with the scriptures; Scriptures are not roots (my  :2c:) they are stems that grow up from roots deep within, that themselves grow up from seeds planted by various sources.  Some are from God, others are from traditions of angels, devils, or men, others are from our own selves.  None of us is a perfect field.
__ __ __

Now, that having been said;

LS, I would like to try a different approach with you if you are willing.  Tell me about your beliefs, share with me what you offer, and I will share what I can offer.  The basic, civilised exchange of ideas - Let us reason together, and converse. :)

Firstly, tell me about Annihilationism.  :cloud9:

First, thank you for that post.  It is almost 100% correct.  The only part about me being an advocate for LS is somewhat off kilter.  In the past, LS has presented very compelling and very strong debate points using extensive scriptural support.  I was impressed with her even handed and strongly supported stance.  I don't advocate for LS because she does so well for herself.  But, I do find her posts educational.

What bothers me is when some members here like to group and label people.  Oh those ED and ET guys...blah blah are this and that...horrible people, have no scriptural support...yada yada.  When I read things like that I will say woh now hold up.  I have seen solid ED stances supported by much scripture.  And I find their stance reasonable and supported by scripture.  I understand their conclusions.

I also see many of the US points.  They do have some support in the translations.  But, to me it appears more reasoned out then supported by scriptural evidence (at least in the english translations).  And as I said before, I am not an expert in Greek therefore will be mainly studying from the english.  With that said, I long for US to be true.  It's why I came here.  If I need to believe in US to be a member here I will gladly leave.  If members here refuse to debate with respect I will go elsewhere.  I have no need for fighting, name calling, and judgmental spirits.  It's just not where I am in my spiritual walk.  I have a great desire to be at peace with men and women...not pulling each others hair.

There are a couple members here who have been continually warned.  Yet, their behavior does not change.  The Bible is clear about how we handle such situations.

Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: On a personal note.....I came out of the Harlot system, and as such, that makes me a "child" of her, in the sense of one having been "birthed" out of her. Anyone that's ever sat on a church pew ANYWHERE, was at one time or another, a "child" of "hers". I find no shame in this, nor do I consider it an insult, but merely a statement of fact; we all had to start somewhere.

The process after that, that we are ALL undergoing, is the removal of the "afterbirth" and being cleansed of the mother's blood, which is a work of the HG. Varying degrees of it remain, staining ALL our garments, until He washes them white as snow. We are not as those still in "her", who will eventually be as one stillborn if they do not come out of her, but our accountability factor is higher as we have been entrusted as midwives to help the others. Let us walk worthy of our calling. Blessings....

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: On a personal note.....I came out of the Harlot system, and as such, that makes me a "child" of her, in the sense of one having been "birthed" out of her. Anyone that's ever sat on a church pew ANYWHERE, was at one time or another, a "child" of "hers". I find no shame in this, nor do I consider it an insult, but merely a statement of fact; we all had to start somewhere.

The process after that, that we are ALL undergoing, is the removal of the "afterbirth" and being cleansed of the mother's blood, which is a work of the HG. Varying degrees of it remain, staining ALL our garments, until He washes them white as snow. We are not as those still in "her", who will eventually be as one stillborn if they do not come out of her, but our accountability factor is higher as we have been entrusted as midwives to help the others. Let us walk worthy of our calling. Blessings....

Yes and Amen. Selah.

[Lefein]

If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.

Christ did not consort with Babylon to raise up children.  In my honest opinion, to call someone a son or daughter of Babylon, is tantamount to stamping 666 on their forehead by our own judgement. :2c:

[shawn]

If someone called me a child of the Harlot system...I'd certainly take it as an insult - I am to be called a son of God, and the Bride.

Agreed.  I am not a child of the harlot system.  I am a son of God.  I believe we should so each other that kind of love and respect.