What's so bad about annihilation

[WhiteWings]

Does every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat?

The usage of that word elsewhere in the Scripture makes me believe it's honest bowing.

[Beloved Servant]

And a blessed revelation:

Matthew 16:17;
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

[LS]

Personally, I am not bright enough to reason out God.  I can read scripture but will only understand if the Holy Spirit unveils my eyes.  So, for me I will read the Bible set before me and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what he wants me to know.  Everything else will have to wait until I meet God.

:thumbsup:

Even though you're not a staunch believer in UR, IMO you've raised some pertinent points in this thread Shawn.

Amen.  And more than that, when false witness was borne against you, you maintained your usual honesty, humility, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - all fruits of the good Spirit. Thank you for reflecting our Lord so well   :thumbsup:

On another board, a member used to preach hell, fire & brimstone. Anyone who disagreed in any measure was accused of "calling God a liar!"  That same method of reasoning was used to accuse Shawn of "not believing" certain scriptures.  If someone wants to level that claim against another person, they ought to prove with a direct quote of Shawn's own words saying, "I don't believe  I Cor 15:26 is true."  Anything less is a lie and I find it deeply disturbing.   It reveals an entirely different spirit, imho.

[Truthseeker]

willieH: Hi Truthseeker...

Just wanted to address the OP... and its "proposal"...

Is this what the Jewish victims of HITLER thought?  -- Do you really think they thought: "whats so bad about ANNHILATION, anyway, ...hey, it aint so bad getting BURNED to death... after all, gotta go sometime" 

:omg:   ????????????  :mshock:

willieH  :winkgrin:

I was just addressing this from the perspective of the possibility of God not being all loving, which in all honesty I'm having a hard time believing when I see what the world is like, the evidence doesn't point to an all loving God, it may perhaps be an all powerful God, but not an all loving God, and I have to agree with what Shawn posted Here

Besides who's to say that a 1000 years down the line, the same thing won't happen again, where people will rebel and the whole thing won't get started again

I'm also fed up with those that espouse ET trying to spread their toxic message all over the place...why must they hound me/others wherever we go on the www, because if what they say is true, then what difference does it make what we do/believe, as this whole life is just a cruel illusion and utter sham anyway, we are just cosmic pawns in a cruel game which we had no control over in the first place, and are just playing our particular role, in it's grim and ghastly prospective..........

Although ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God, and at least one day there willl be peace and no suffering, even if one eventually has to become non-existent in order to do so

******************

Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of

[WhiteWings]

Although ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God

100% agreed.

[Beloved Servant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQp75TsnpSA&feature=related

[legoman]

Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of

Hi Truthseeker,

I get what you are saying.  For me hope and faith have a lot to do with.

Sure we could all have it wrong and maybe God is the ET God - or worse - maybe this is all a charade and God is the devil and will simply torture everyone forever - but what is the sense in hoping for that outcome?

It is my hope that God will have all people to be saved and all suffering will end one day.  And I see evidence for this in the scriptures, and in circumstances I experience in this life.

Don't lose hope... that is part of what this life here is about - so we will learn and understand what hope is, and why it is a good thing.  It is a good thing to hope for the best.

[Beloved Servant]

...and hope is never hopeless!

Spread the FIRE legoman!

http://www.youtube.com/user/rdthotl#p/a/f/0/i5dSIL358NM

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen....go Lego, go Lego, go Lego..... :winkgrin:

[Truthseeker]

Although ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God

100% agreed.

Thankfully, someone agrees with the point I'm trying to get across here

Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of

Hi Truthseeker,

I get what you are saying.  For me hope and faith have a lot to do with.

Sure we could all have it wrong and maybe God is the ET God - or worse - maybe this is all a charade and God is the devil and will simply torture everyone forever - but what is the sense in hoping for that outcome?

It is my hope that God will have all people to be saved and all suffering will end one day.  And I see evidence for this in the scriptures, and in circumstances I experience in this life.

Don't lose hope... that is part of what this life here is about - so we will learn and understand what hope is, and why it is a good thing.  It is a good thing to hope for the best.

It's hard not to lose hope, it also doesn't help that Jesus' followers keep threatening everybody that doesn't think like them with ET, it's always someone else going to hell...except themselves of course

Believe me, with the type of messages that Orthodox Christendom touts as the "good news" I have actually thought on occasion, that the bolded part of what you said could be true...what a truly horrific and scary concept

If Orthodox ET Christianity is right, then no sugarcoating, watering down or smooth talking, will ever alter that cold hard fact that the universe may be run by a cosmic despot and sadistic tyrant :mshock:

[Beloved Servant]

If Orthodox ET Christianity is right, then no sugarcoating, watering down or smooth talking, will ever alter that cold hard fact that the universe may be run by a cosmic despot and sadistic tyrant.

But they are not right and that is a malicious lie uttered forth from the den of inequity.

[legoman]

Although ED also doesn't reflect an all loving God anymore than ET, at least an ED God is a trillion, billion times more merciful than an ET God

100% agreed.

Thankfully, someone agrees with the point I'm trying to get across here

I agree with you too here.

Before you all jump down my throat, I appreciate the spirit of this forum as a whole, but is it possible that UR could really be wrong, I've never ever felt that it was right, as I do not see the evidence for this all benevolent God you all speak of

Hi Truthseeker,

I get what you are saying.  For me hope and faith have a lot to do with.

Sure we could all have it wrong and maybe God is the ET God - or worse - maybe this is all a charade and God is the devil and will simply torture everyone forever - but what is the sense in hoping for that outcome?

It is my hope that God will have all people to be saved and all suffering will end one day.  And I see evidence for this in the scriptures, and in circumstances I experience in this life.

Don't lose hope... that is part of what this life here is about - so we will learn and understand what hope is, and why it is a good thing.  It is a good thing to hope for the best.

It's hard not to lose hope, it also doesn't help that Jesus' followers keep threatening everybody that doesn't think like them with ET, it's always someone else going to hell...except themselves of course

Believe me, with the type of messages that Orthodox Christendom touts as the "good news" I have actually thought on occasion, that the bolded part of what you said could be true...what a truly horrific and scary concept

If Orthodox ET Christianity is right, then no sugarcoating, watering down or smooth talking, will ever alter that cold hard fact that the universe may be run by a cosmic despot and sadistic tyrant :mshock:

I guess you have to ask yourself, are they really Jesus followers if they threaten you with eternal hell?  Jesus said 'many will come in my name... and deceive many'.  There is a whole lot of deception in orthodox ET Christianity...

You are right that if Orthodox ET Christianity is right, we are all doomed - as I see it the only way ET could make sense (and I use the word "sense" here loosely) -if you don't end up in ET yourself- is if God either erases all are minds or changes us all so we will enjoy the eternal torment of others.  This would be a very sad and scary heaven.  But again why hope for such a scenario?

Sure maybe lots of people are telling you right now "you are going to hell..." because you don't do this or that.  Is that what is bothering you so much Truthseeker?  At a certain point you almost have to laugh it off, and realize what they are suggesting is so wrong - like water off a duck's back.  I've come to realize that some of the people who are most lost in this world are the ones who believe and embrace the idea that God lets people be tortured forever. 

Personally I am 100% convinced that eternal torment cannot be true.  Certain life experiences have convinced me of this - like having kids.  I cannot imagine that the God, who is love, created my little girl (she's 6 years old) so that she could possibly end up in a place of endless suffering.  It just plain makes no sense at all.

Alot of it has come about by waking up from 'blind acceptance' and actually using a little logic and common sense to reason things out and go against 'what everyone else believes'.  The majority is not always right.  It really comes down to this: if God is good, and God is able to achieve His desires, then He most certainly will be able to save and reconcile all people.

So why hope for anything else?  Why think that ET is true?  Why think that ED is true?  Why think there is no God?  There is no hope in those beliefs.  Logically, the best outcome is that 1) God exists, 2)He is good, and 3)He will be able to save, convert, and reconcile all people.  Don't let fear corrupt your hope.  And don't be afraid of using logic and reason.  Its the doom & gloomers who like to say we can't understand God's logic and 'His ways are higher than our ways', implying God does the opposite of what human's think of as logic.  I'm sorry but logic is what the truth is based on and Jesus is the truth.  I'm not saying I can understand all of God, but I can certainly understand that it is not loving or justice to torture someone infinitely.  I can also understand that Jesus came to defeat death so that all can live.

Personally I'm convinced that God must exist - both for logical reasons and because of evidence in this world - therefore my hope lies in a God who is good and powerful enough to achieve His plan.

Be well...

[WhiteWings]

It's hard not to lose hope, it also doesn't help that Jesus' followers keep threatening everybody that doesn't think like them with ET, it's always someone else going to hell...except themselves of course

Do ETs really follow Jesus? You can't blame Jesus for people twisting His message.
A quote: "It's not God I have a problem with; it's His fanclub I can't stand."  :winkgrin:

Believe me, with the type of messages that Orthodox Christendom touts as the "good news"

TS, it's good that you spot the errors; but you still seem to believe in those errors you just spotted.
If a UR God gets labeled as an ET God, who's to blame? God or the one labeling Him?

If Orthodox ET Christianity is right,

Is islam Christianity? They do believe in Abraham, Moses, Noach, etc. I guess all will answer no. Why not? Because muslims mixed Christianity with false teachings.
Does orthodox Christianity exist? I say no because it's the same as islam. Christianity with mixed with false teachings. (Roman, Greek Zoroasterism, etc)
If you mix white paint with to much black paint there comes a point you can no longer call it white paint.

[Lefein]

No religion is valid, only Christ.

[WhiteWings]

Personally I am 100% convinced that eternal torment cannot be true.  Certain life experiences have convinced me of this - like having kids.  I cannot imagine that the God, who is love, created my little girl (she's 6 years old) so that she could possibly end up in a place of endless suffering.  It just plain makes no sense at all.

Compared to the age of God even the 106 year old are little kids.

Its the doom & gloomers who like to say we can't understand God's logic and 'His ways are higher than our ways', implying God does the opposite of what human's think of as logic.  I'm sorry but logic is what the truth is based on and Jesus is the truth.

It would also mean Jesus' ministry was a waste of time. Whatever He said couldn't be understand anyway because He spoke about the ways of God.

I'm not saying I can understand all of God, but I can certainly understand that it is not loving or justice to torture someone infinitely.  I can also understand that Jesus came to defeat death so that all can live.

Exactly. It's not that hard to figure out the framework.

[legoman]

Personally I am 100% convinced that eternal torment cannot be true.  Certain life experiences have convinced me of this - like having kids.  I cannot imagine that the God, who is love, created my little girl (she's 6 years old) so that she could possibly end up in a place of endless suffering.  It just plain makes no sense at all.

Compared to the age of God even the 106 year old are little kids.

Exactly.  Sometimes I think we are all little kids.

Most Christians have this idea of 'age of accountability' - they say: oh God wouldn't send a 6 year old to hell...

I ask myself why is it not good for God to send a 6-year old to hell, but it is justice for God to send a 36-year old to hell?!?  I guess the 36-year old is mature enough - he can handle it. :mshock: How about a sweet little 76-year old grandma?

And I'm not trying to say we aren't accountable.  We are accountable.  You stole a chocolate bar once - YOU DESERVE TO BURN IN HELL FOREVER!  That's accountability?!?

Again we need to be reasonable and logical. If we say we can't use logic then we may as well not even talk about this anymore because our entire system of language and communication is based on logic.  If 'love=hate' and 'justice=torture forever' then things are bound to get screwed up...

[legoman]

dup

[Lefein]

We are made in the image of God - we are little expressions of God's being.  We are not perfect mind you, but we aren't stupid, and God is not ludicrous.

People who say that God cannot be understood are practicing false humility, and it stinks in the nostrils of God - because God wants his children to know, to listen, to understand him, to trust him, to grow towards him, and etc.

With regards to his ways being higher - it is better explained to these sort that God sometimes does things that seem unreasonable, but then they will make sense after the end has been achieved.  It probably seemed unreasonable to tell the Israelites to step into the Jordan carrying the ark - which then parted.  But it was faith that understood what the brain did not at the time comprehend.  None of this however, should imply that God is ludicrous, and completely irrational.

Hell is not something that "makes sense later", it can't.  Its...just plain ridiculous, it doesn't have a benevolent direction like alot of what God does that is seemingly unreasonable when he asks us to step out in faith.

[jabcat]

No religion is valid, only Christ.

Whether your background has been Islam, Hindu, Orthodox Jew, orthodox Christian, agnostic, or atheist - the crucial doctrine is  "... if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."  Romans 10:9

There is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved.  Acts 4:12

[shawn]

Personally, I am not bright enough to reason out God.  I can read scripture but will only understand if the Holy Spirit unveils my eyes.  So, for me I will read the Bible set before me and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me what he wants me to know.  Everything else will have to wait until I meet God.

:thumbsup:

Even though you're not a staunch believer in UR, IMO you've raised some pertinent points in this thread Shawn.

Amen.  And more than that, when false witness was borne against you, you maintained your usual honesty, humility, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control - all fruits of the good Spirit. Thank you for reflecting our Lord so well   :thumbsup:

On another board, a member used to preach hell, fire & brimstone. Anyone who disagreed in any measure was accused of "calling God a liar!"  That same method of reasoning was used to accuse Shawn of "not believing" certain scriptures.  If someone wants to level that claim against another person, they ought to prove with a direct quote of Shawn's own words saying, "I don't believe  I Cor 15:26 is true."  Anything less is a lie and I find it deeply disturbing.   It reveals an entirely different spirit, imho.

I appreciate your kind words LS.

[shawn]

Was it not to legoman?

I would love to know what you believe legoman's point was.

I am curious though.  This is a group of Christians who very much mistrust the motives, and the translational abilities of 4-5th century church leaders.  So, why is it that you trust their ability to canonize scripture?  Where does the mistrust end?

Well I was just a little surprised because I had never seen a scripture that said anything about "free choice".  Then I realized it wasn't actually scripture.

I didn't realize it was part of the Catholic bible - I should check it out (since I even go to a Catholic church!  My wife is Catholic...)

Anyway since it is not "official canon", we shouldn't really use those books as proof of anything, other than some people wrote it down like that many centuries ago... I suppose it is interesting to quote them, but it should not be treated as scripture IMHO.

Catholic canon was used very little in those quotes.  Most come straight from your Bible.  With that said, my question was not addressed.  If we do not trust 4th and 5th century religious leaders to translate...why do we trust them to canonize? 

[jabcat]

One time on one of my favorite shows, Andy was taken to a fancy restaurant by a woman who was ordering for them.  She wanted to order escargo (sp?).  Andy didn't know what it was it was, and when he found out, he didn't want to eat them.  He said "I think I'll just let the snails slide on by".

So, bringing this to my point, I'd hoped that question about canonization could just "slide on by"   :laughing7:. 

We'll need to be careful to not get into too much textual criticism - one of those slippery slopes - get it?  slippery? - that we try to avoid.   :bigGrin:

[Beloved Servant]

I, for one, believe the Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God not written by or approved of by man.

Tentmaker may have a stance on that, perhaps one of the moderators would tell you if it is not written.

Certain persons, including myself, highly esteem the written Word of God.

[jabcat]

Yes David, thank you, the link is in my signature at the bottom of my posts. 

[Lefein]

I don't think anyone is questioning it, or dis-esteeming there.