What's so bad about annihilation

[legoman]

I personally don't understand why so many UR believers are as much against this as ET


If I'm entirely honest with myself, I'd rather just cease to exist altogether one day rather than be forced to live forever, I'm more worried about others/myself being tortured forever than I am about wanting to go to heaven to be with the Lord forevermore

If UR isn't true then annihilation is the next best thing as at least there won't be ET, in other words what I'm saying, is simply this

If I had a choice between going to eternal bliss for myself at the expense of one person being tortured forever, or I have to give up my eternal bliss to save the person being tortured forever (IOW we are both annihilated), then I would choose to give up my eternal bliss

So much for the phantom [mod edit] that we all supposedly have, I couldn't even have chosen whether or not I wanted to play this game in the first place, to me it seems as if we are placed here without our consent and given an ultimatum of "turn or burn", if I understand this "True Gospel Threat"

Hi Truthseeker,

In itself I don't think there is much wrong with what you say above.  I would think many people would give up immortality (if they could) so others would not be tortured forever.  That in itself is a noble thing to - not all would do it (even some who claim to be Christian) - yet many would.  And I know what you mean that the idea of living forever seems scary and sometimes wishing for your own annihilation might provide more peace.  But God will provide a better life than all this now.  That is our hope.

But this is not the problem with ED (annihilation), and why UR's have a problem with it.  The real reason - like others have said - is that ED, like ET, makes God a failure, and thus provides no assurance that any of us will not end up in a state where God cannot or does not save us, and perhaps even leaves us in a state endless torture.  There is no assurance if ED is true.

Jesus came to defeat and destroy death so that all could be made alive.  If eternal death is true, either Jesus is a giant failure or the scripture is lying...

I don't believe this to be true.  There is assurance in Christ.  Those who are followers of Christ are saved.  This is beyond question.  I take much assurance in that fact.

The point I was making perhaps was not clear.

If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?

[legoman]

I don't believe this to be true.  There is assurance in Christ.  Those who are followers of Christ are saved.  This is beyond question.  I take much assurance in that fact.

The point I was making perhaps was not clear.

If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?

Another way to look at it.  Suppose there are 2 scriptural statements:

1.  God desires to save all
2.  Followers of Christ are saved

Perhaps we can accept both of these as true factual statements.

So, if ED is true, this means:
1.  God cannot fulfill (at least some of) His desires.

Therefore:
2.  What assurance do we have that He will fulfill His desire to save followers of Christ?  :dontknow:

See what I mean?

[WhiteWings]

ET, ED and UR; all believe His will shall be done. None of them believes His plans will fail. The thing is that people understand the plan differently...
All=some, age=for ever.  Need I say more....  :winkgrin:

[legoman]

ET, ED and UR; all believe His will shall be done. None of them believes His plans will fail. The thing is that people understand the plan differently...
All=some, age=for ever.  Need I say more....  :winkgrin:

Yep, on the surface of it, all are supported by the bible, even though they cannot all be simultaneously true.  (IMHO with a bit of research you can determine for yourself that only UR can be true)... anyway...

In that respect it comes down to your heart:
1.  is eternal torture justice? alot of people feel it is, so they think ET is true
2.  or does God just dispose of the bad guys? some other people feel this is more merciful, so they think ED is true
3.  or does God reconcile all (even the bad guys)? a few people think God is powerful enough to reconcile all

And of course God is in control of your heart too...  :winkgrin:

[micah7:9]

1Ti 4:10

(ASV)  For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men[/b], specially of them that believe.

(CLV) (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,

(KJV)  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

(Rotherham)  For, to this end, are we toiling and contending, because we have set our hope on a Living God, Who is Saviour of all men—specially, of such as believe.

(RYLT-NT)  for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

(WNT)  and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.

(YLT)  for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men--especially of those believing.

G3122 specially

[LS]

The point I was making perhaps was not clear.

If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?

If I may?

God desires all to be saved ... but by His design has allowed man to reject Him utterly.  This is great cost to God Himself, but Love doesn't force itself or seek its own interests, correct? (1 Cor 13)  He "could" save all, but to me it isn't a question of whether He is able.

Does it not bring greater glory to God that all who love Him, do so freely? And if we freely love Him, I believe that there are some (a few) who would rather freely choose evil, and utterly reject Him.

In my mind, it's a question of His glory and His plan and His will be done.

Does that make sense?

[micah7:9]

1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

Is there something I need to know about "all?"

[legoman]

The point I was making perhaps was not clear.

If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?

If I may?

God desires all to be saved ... but by His design has allowed man to reject Him utterly.  This is great cost to God Himself, but Love doesn't force itself or seek its own interests, correct? (1 Cor 13)  He "could" save all, but to me it isn't a question of whether He is able.

Does it not bring greater glory to God that all who love Him, do so freely? And if we freely love Him, I believe that there are some (a few) who would rather freely choose evil, and utterly reject Him.

In my mind, it's a question of His glory and His plan and His will be done.

Does that make sense?

Hi LS,

Yes I have seen that POV before.

There are 2 flaws I believe with this argument:

1.  If God desires to save all, but implements a plan in which not all will be saved, then He didn't really desire to save all.  God is in control, right?

2.  Love is not really a 'free' action in the way you are describing.  Even in scripture it says we love Him, because He loved us.  But consider love between a man and a wife.  Is that love 'free'?  'free' from what you might ask?  Free from influence?  Certainly love is not free from influence.  A man loves a woman because she is beautiful, kind, caring, compassionate, a good cook, is good with children, or any other number of reasons.  A woman loves a man because he is handsome, strong, kind, protecting, understanding, and good with children, or again any other number of reasons.

So all of those qualities influence the other to love that person.  It is not 'free' in how you would like it to mean a free choice free from causation.  All of these qualities like good looks, strength, kindness, etc. are admired and are attractive - they naturally attract us and cause us to love.  At first it is the superficial things that attract us like physical beauty, good cook, etc. but as we grow in love we learn to love the inner beauty of a person - kindness, compassion, patience - all the attributes of love described in 1 Cor 13.


Scripture confirms this because it tells us that man's natural state is to do evil - and we can only accept Christ when God draws us to Him.

[legoman]

1Co 15:22  for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,

Is there something I need to know about "all?"

It doesn't mean all.

Just kidding  :laughing7: but that's what some people will tell you...

[shawn]

The point I was making perhaps was not clear.

If God wants all to be saved
... yet some end up in ED (or even ET)
... then what assurance do we have that God will even be able to save ourselves, since He is not able to fulfill his desire to save all?

If I may?

God desires all to be saved ... but by His design has allowed man to reject Him utterly.  This is great cost to God Himself, but Love doesn't force itself or seek its own interests, correct? (1 Cor 13)  He "could" save all, but to me it isn't a question of whether He is able.

Does it not bring greater glory to God that all who love Him, do so freely? And if we freely love Him, I believe that there are some (a few) who would rather freely choose evil, and utterly reject Him.

In my mind, it's a question of His glory and His plan and His will be done.

Does that make sense?

LS...the main problem I have with this stance is the fact that we are born slaves to sin.  There is no choice there.  We didn't choose sin...we were born into it.  The only way we can even be remotely open to the voice of God, to love God and to have relationship is by grace.  Are you sure that God reveals himself to all...and those built for destruction reject him?

[shawn]

Lego...let me address your points.

1.  If God desires to save all, but implements a plan in which not all will be saved, then He didn't really desire to save all.  God is in control, right?  Is it possible for God to desire two things that might conflict with each other...thus directing design?  One takes priority over the other?

2.  Love is not really a 'free' action in the way you are describing.  Even in scripture it says we love Him, because He loved us.  But consider love between a man and a wife.  Is that love 'free'?  'free' from what you might ask?  Free from influence?  Certainly love is not free from influence.  A man loves a woman because she is beautiful, kind, caring, compassionate, a good cook, is good with children, or any other number of reasons.  A woman loves a man because he is handsome, strong, kind, protecting, understanding, and good with children, or again any other number of reasons.

So all of those qualities influence the other to love that person.  It is not 'free' in how you would like it to mean a free choice free from causation.  All of these qualities like good looks, strength, kindness, etc. are admired and are attractive - they naturally attract us and cause us to love.  At first it is the superficial things that attract us like physical beauty, good cook, etc. but as we grow in love we learn to love the inner beauty of a person - kindness, compassion, patience - all the attributes of love described in 1 Cor 13.


Scripture confirms this because it tells us that man's natural state is to do evil - and we can only accept Christ when God draws us to Him.

I would agree with all of that.

[Lefein]

I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.

God is Life, Love, Truth, etc, etc.  But lets focus on Life, and Love.

If there was a man named Bob, who being made in the image of God, could some how or another be so stubborn, and hard that he did not respond to Love, and Life in all of His glory; if Bob could choose to hate Love itself when it stands boldly before him - fully known (everyone will come to the full knowledge of the truth) - nothing but the pure truth of love, known absolutely to the fullest --- if he could choose to hate Love, that heart would be embittered, and hard to such an extent that he would not have been born.  It requires such an inglorious amount of separation from God, Love, Life, the source, maintainer, continuer of these things -- to respond negatively to pure-fully known-true Love, and Life.  Such a separation from these, would be total absence of them.  The man Bob, would be totally separated and absent of Life - he would never have been born, having no form of Life in him.

Annihilation requires the very same level of separation.  It is simply impossible for a being to commit such existential suicide as annihilation, and no one I believe is capable of not responding positively to the full knowledge of Love, or even the lesser manifestations of His glory.

See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.

[legoman]

Lego...let me address your points.

1.  If God desires to save all, but implements a plan in which not all will be saved, then He didn't really desire to save all.  God is in control, right?  Is it possible for God to desire two things that might conflict with each other...thus directing design?  One takes priority over the other?

I guess I take the position that God is focused, uncomprised, not "schizophrenic" to put it bluntly.

God is not a man.  Men have to make many compromises - I would love to own a Ferrari but I can only afford a Toyota... to give a carnal example.

But I don't believe God has to make choices like that.  What I believe God has done is picked the best way - in fact the only way - that we can come to a full knowledge of the truth.

So God cannot have two conflicting goals with different priorities - because the 2nd priority goal would never be achieved.  That is what most of the mainstream believes.  God has one goal and one goal only - to reproduce himself - to create billions of beings that will be like Himself - made in His image - to become LOVE itself - all coming to a full knowledge of the truth.  The goal is not achieved yet.  What we witness in this world is a product of what is necessary to achieve that goal.

Its not like there are two conflicting goals and only one can be achieved.  No.  There is only one goal and there is a plan to achieve that goal.  If you only look at a small portion of the plan - it may look like the goal cannot be achieved.  But it will be.  This is God we are talking about.  He cannot fail.

So back on point with ET and ED - essentially both of these doctrines suggest that God fails and does not fulfill His plan.  That is, unless you think His plan was to eternally torture or annihilate most of mankind... (obviously some people do think that)...

[legoman]

I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.

Yes!   :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

...from another thread:

So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.

i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?

i will let yall know what he says......

do these people even THINK???


chucjkt

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/immortality...._6260.0.html

[legoman]

...from another thread:

So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.

i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?

i will let yall know what he says......

do these people even THINK???


chucjkt

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/immortality...._6260.0.html

Hey is that you Euty?  I didn't realize you had changed your user ID.

[Lefein]

Immortality is man's way of being redundant about what already belongs to them.  Life.

There is Life, and then there is "living" under the principle of "dying you shall die".  Thankfully, I have Life.  I may shed this dying it shall die garment, this clay mush covered in aprons of skins...but I'll have a robe of glory in due time.  But I have Life, I shall never die, I have Life, and he has me, I'll never slip out of his hands.

[LS]

LS...the main problem I have with this stance is the fact that we are born slaves to sin.  There is no choice there.  We didn't choose sin...we were born into it.  The only way we can even be remotely open to the voice of God, to love God and to have relationship is by grace.  Are you sure that God reveals himself to all...and those built for destruction reject him?

I think, first, that "reconciliation" we are discussing in another chapter comes into play here - He HAS reconciled the world - the sin debt all are born into has been paid.

I think there are many scriptures that tell us we are all born with a knowing of Him:

He set eternity on our hearts (Ecc 3:11)

God reveals Himself in all of nature: 19 For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse (Rom 1)

They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them (Rom 2:15)

I think these are the things within us that cause man to seek. And what happens when we seek?
29 Yet there too you shall seek the LORD, your God; and you shall indeed find him when you search after him with your whole heart and your whole soul. (Deut 4)

...and...

9 "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.10 For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11)

Those who have been exposed more fully to the truth of God's Word will be held more accountable to Him than those who have never heard it, but still all will be held accountable:
47 That servant who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will shall be beaten severely;48 and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.

And finally, here is part of chapter 13 from Wisdom, a deutercanonical book. It's a little long, but it confirms that all mankind can know God even if we are never told or taught:

1 For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
2 But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods.
3 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
4 Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is he who made them.
5 For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original author, by analogy, is seen.
6 But yet, for these the blame is less; For they indeed have gone astray perhaps, though they seek God and wish to find him.
7 For they search busily among his works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair.
8 But again, not even these are pardonable.
9 For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its LORD?
10 But doomed are they, and in dead things are their hopes, who termed gods things made by human hands: Gold and silver, the product of art, and likenesses of beasts, or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand.
There's a lot here, I know - I hope I was able to lay it out so it makes some sort of sense.  As I've said before, I'm not a teacher and I know I get ahead of myself  :mblush: [/color]

[LS]

I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.

That sounds good ... but I don't think that is supported by scripture. I'm not trying to be rude, but I do know our own reasoning isn't always right ... in the end we have to find it in the Bible and I don't think we can. :mblush:

See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.

A similar event happened to Balaam ... but He choose a much different path than Paul. 

:grouppray:

[Beloved Servant]

...from another thread:

So, a guy tells me those in heaven have to continually eat from the tree of life for immortality.

i asked, those in eternal hell dont have a tree to eat from, how do they keep immortality?

i will let yall know what he says......

do these people even THINK???


chucjkt

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/immortality...._6260.0.html

Hey is that you Euty?  I didn't realize you had changed your user ID.

No, it's not Euty, just me!
I just bumped the thread here because it was a brilliant question.

[shawn]

I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.

That sounds good ... but I don't think that is supported by scripture. I'm not trying to be rude, but I do know our own reasoning isn't always right ... in the end we have to find it in the Bible and I don't think we can. :mblush:

See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.

A similar event happened to Balaam ... but He choose a much different path than Paul. 

:grouppray:

See this is where I am LS.  UR really appeals to my logic, and emotions on a very deep level.  I long for it.  But, just because it feels good and makes sense logically doesn't mean that is God's plan.  I must find it in scripture.  And while I do think there is some scriptural support for UR...even some tough verses for me to explain...ultimately I believe the english translations widely support ED.  I speak english.  That is the Bible I had placed in my hands.  I am not a linguist nor will I completely trust the word of others on a particular subject in which I plead ignorance.

What I have found peace in is knowing that scripture does not support ET.  I can indeed reconcil God who loves agape and ED.  My reservations that surround ED is the reservations of many here.  It doesn't feel like complete victory to my finite mind.  But, I am not God nor does he need or seek my approval for his judgments.

[Lefein]

I contend that there is not a single sentient soul - one who is the image of God, who can resist the Love of God ultimately.

That sounds good ... but I don't think that is supported by scripture. I'm not trying to be rude, but I do know our own reasoning isn't always right ... in the end we have to find it in the Bible and I don't think we can. :mblush:

See Paul on the road to Damascus for example.

A similar event happened to Balaam ... but He choose a much different path than Paul. 

:grouppray:

Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship in Spirit, and in Truth; No one can avow the name of Christ except by the Holy Spirit.

I am the Truth, none come to the Father but by me. -Jesus

Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship in Spirit, by that same Spirit and in Jesus who is Truth, and the saviour, healer, life-giver of all men.

If someone has the Son, he has the Father.  If someone is in the Son, he is in the Father - if someone is in God - God is in them; Life, Truth, Love are in them, and vice versa likewise.

Every single soul will confess, profess, avow, acclaim, assent, agree fully to, acknowledge; exomologeo -- God

God wills that everyone shall come to the full knowledge of The Truth - Jesus.  To know Jesus, is to know the Father, to fully know Jesus is to be saved.

There is not just ample support - but full support that says that every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess; this means that everyone, the full wholeness of every bowable, and confessable being shall not resist God.  There will be no silent tongue, and no unbent knee.

Which is greater, God's ability to command, or God himself who is love?

None shall resist God in his command to acknowledge and bow, it is fully reasonable and scriptural to say that none shall resist God-Love Himself who makes all things beautiful in his due time.

God will not be glorified if his children are divinely aborted after their adoring cry, and adoring bows in spirit, in truth, and after the full knowledge of Truth is given them.  It would be...significantly ludicrous of God to slaughter the majority of his worshipers.

God will not lie to himself to force men to bow without reverence in Heaven having the full truth, after letting them choose lives of sin in ignorance while on the Earth.  Why should he?

[LS]

See this is where I am LS.  UR really appeals to my logic, and emotions on a very deep level.  I long for it.  But, just because it feels good and makes sense logically doesn't mean that is God's plan.  I must find it in scripture.  And while I do think there is some scriptural support for UR...even some tough verses for me to explain...ultimately I believe the english translations widely support ED.  I speak english.  That is the Bible I had placed in my hands.  I am not a linguist nor will I completely trust the word of others on a particular subject in which I plead ignorance.

What I have found peace in is knowing that scripture does not support ET.  I can indeed reconcil God who loves agape and ED.  My reservations that surround ED is the reservations of many here.  It doesn't feel like complete victory to my finite mind.  But, I am not God nor does he need or seek my approval for his judgments.

I don't disagree with a single word you wrote ... I am in the same place.

Peace to you - it was good seeing you again    :cloud9:

[LS]

Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship in Spirit, and in Truth; No one can avow the name of Christ except by the Holy Spirit.

I am the Truth, none come to the Father but by me. -Jesus

Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess - God will have people worship in Spirit, by that same Spirit and in Jesus who is Truth, and the saviour, healer, life-giver of all men.

If someone has the Son, he has the Father.  If someone is in the Son, he is in the Father - if someone is in God - God is in them; Life, Truth, Love are in them, and vice versa likewise.

Hi Lefein ... just a few question (and I have no answer for them ... they are just the questions I ask myself when people show me the verses about every knee bowing) ...

Does every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat?    Does this bowing take place before judgment ... or could this occur after the wicked are destroyed and it is those who are saved that are all bowing?   

Your passages about the Son and the Father called to mind John 8, when Jesus talks about those who belong to His Father, and contrasts them with those whose father is the devil.

Those are just some final thoughts; thank you for reading & replying    :Peace:

[Lefein]

Does every bowed knee do so in love and reverence ... or in defeat?

What better thing for any child, than to be humiliated, and defeated by the all loving, merciful, not-vindictive, forgiving Father who has brought a person to such a state as to have lost all sense of self-leaning pride, such pride that would cause such a person to have rebelled against God in the first place?

It is pride, sin, shame, guilt, and self-centeredness that causes someone to not bow to God - for someone to bow into defeat, is to be humbled by God who has taken the man out of that self-hell of inhumble darkness, and separation from the Father.  Why would the loving Father having humbled a man, throw him back into his hell - just so he could destroy the man for his past sins?

Does God, despite what the scriptures say - actually remember the sins of the past that man has repented of?  Even and especially since bowing in defeat, and confessing the name of the Lord in Spirit, and in Truth, worshiping even and especially out of acknowledgment of God's glory, and their own defeat being is (imo) the highest, and most acted out way of repenting.

For someone to bow in defeat, is to bow in love and reverence.  The man who offers up his life in the sinner's prayer, does so in defeat; and his offering is nothing less glorifying and beautiful to God than what will occur in Heaven when they bow, and confess the name of God whether it is in supplication, or in praise.

To be defeated by God, is to be defeated by a just king worthy of chivalric faerie tales.  :2c:

Does this bowing take place before judgment ... or could this occur after the wicked are destroyed and it is those who are saved that are all bowing?

If I may be bold, I think it is not an event, but a lifestyle being described.   

Your passages about the Son and the Father called to mind John 8, when Jesus talks about those who belong to His Father, and contrasts them with those whose father is the devil.

God has knit every child in his mother's womb, given it his breath, made it in his image, and knew it before it was ever born, orders its steps, and sends the rain upon it; whether just, or unjust.

The Father is the father of the prodigal, just the same as he is the father the one who remained.

__ __ __

And Jabcat;  :thumbsup: