Hello, I'm Travis

[Lefein]

I know Travis, I too have defended my faith (I also believe that Jesus is My Lord, and My God) I was just saying so you don't get into a fist fight with WillieH over it, I've gotten into them, and I'm not at all popular here because of it.  I just don't want to see you get in trouble or see your main point of discussion missed over doctrinal issues. ^^

[Paul Hazelwood]

Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should say that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

You really have nothing to defend.  WillieH believes in Jesus as Saviour, so do I, and most likely anyone you encounter here that agrees with the basics of what Tentmaker wants to share to the world does too.

What exactly is it about tentmaker and our belief that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus is the only way causes you to think you need to defend your faith?

[jabcat]

I'm not at all popular here

Oh, I don't know Lef, I think you're pretty well-known.   :laugh2:

[Lefein]

Jabcat; The ladies love me. :)

[jabcat]

Great point and question Paul.

Let's see, which one of these is the most true about how to get saved?

a) believe in eternal hell and you will be saved

b) believe everyone will ultimately be saved, and you will be saved

c) believe Jesus is the Son of God, died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead, and you will be saved

[Paul Hazelwood]

Here is a scripture passage that I came to realize how profound it really is.

Christian Universalism teaches that Jesus is the only way and that Jesus is Saviour of the world.   Most Christian Universalists have never doubted an eternal hell believers walk with God and mainly argue that it is a belief in Jesus that salvation comes about, not the nature of judgment.  Realize that to some judgement can be eternal hell but Christian universalists simply believe that Judgment has a different nature. 

You can argue for eternal damnation till your blue in the face but that doesn't change what actually saves a person.

Here is the passage.

Phl 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

Phl 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

Phl 1:16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

Phl 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Phl 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,



We preach Christ here, so rejoice.......

[Travis]

Trinity/Lack thereof discussion, I was told (...often...much to my displeasure...) is a forbidden subject, just to toss it out there after catching glimpses of it.

I referred to Jesus Christ as my Lord and my God and Willie didn't seem to think I should say that or something. I was simply defending my faith.

You really have nothing to defend.  WillieH believes in Jesus as Saviour, so do I, and most likely anyone you encounter here that agrees with the basics of what Tentmaker wants to share to the world does too.

What exactly is it about tentmaker and our belief that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus is the only way causes you to think you need to defend your faith?

The best that I can tell, Willie seemed to have some issue with me referring to Jesus Christ as God when I wrote that Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

My faith is that God became a man an lived a perfect sinless life and died on the cross for our sins and was raised again three days later so that whosoever believes in him for forgiveness of sins and salvation will be saved.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

Willie seemed to have some issue with the "God" part of that sentence.

[Paul Hazelwood]

My faith is that God became a man an lived a perfect sinless life and died on the cross for our sins and was raised again three days later so that whosoever believes in him for forgiveness of sins and salvation will be saved.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

Willie seemed to have some issue with the "God" part of that sentence.

Oh, Well, Christian Universalism teaches what you just said, maybe not using those exact words,  so, perhaps, the problems are arising because it really isn't that clear what it is exactly that your saying is false.   Those kinds of misunderstandings can happen.


I mean belief in Jesus as Saviour and preaching it to the world is what we are about.  You do realize that right?

[Lefein]

if I may - what of my earlier post?  The one concerning the rest of the verse, and its context.

[jabcat]

We preach Christ here, so rejoice.......

Out of 267 members, including Travis, I'd guess 99%+ believe Jesus is God's Son, that He died for our sins and rose again, and that He is our Savior.   Isn't that supposed to be our common bond?

[Lefein]

For the sake of reference, and discussion---The verses at hand, in various forms.
___ ___ ___

In the King James:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

In the Koine Greek:

Ho pisteusas kai baptistheis sothesetai ho de apistesas katakrithesetai.

Literal Translation:

The one-believing and being-dipized/dipped/baptised shall-be-being-saved the yet one-unbelieving/disbelieving shall-be-being-down-judged.

Katakrithesetai comes from the Greek verb "Katakrino" which means "To judge against" to "sentence"

G2632  katakrino  kat-ak-ree'-no

from G2596 and G2919;

to judge against, i.e. sentence.

-Strongs Concordance

The verse could be translated this way; (after of course looking at some studies on the words using strongs)

The one who believes and is washed shall be delivered, yet the one who disbelieves shall be sentenced.

__ __ __

AV = Authorised Version, which is the King James Translation.

AV Mk 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

AV Mk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

AV Mk 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

AV Mk 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

---

Koine GreeK, Literal Translation, and My Rendering.

Kai epipen autois poreuthentes eis ton kosmon hapanta keruxate to euaggelion pase te ktisei

And he-said to-them being-gone into the system ALL proclaim/herald-ye the well-message/good-news to-every/to-entire the creation.

and he said to them go into the absolute-fullness of the world-system and everyone proclaim the good news to the entire creation.

-

Ho pisteusas kai baptistheis sothesetai ho de apistesas katakrithesetai.

The one-believing and being-dipized/dipped/baptised shall-be-being-saved the yet one-unbelieving/disbelieving shall-be-being-down-judged.

The one who believes and is washed shall be delivered, yet the one who disbelieves shall be sentenced.

-

Semeia de tois pisteusasin tauta parakolouthesei en to onomati mou daimonia ekbalousin glossais lalesousin kainais | opheis arousin kan thanasimon ti piosin ou me autous blapsei epi arrostous cheiras epithesousin kai kalos exousin.

signs yet[now; strongs] to-the ones-believing these shall-be-beside-following/shall-be-fully-following in the name of-me demons they-shall-be-out-casting/they-shall-be-casting-out to-tongues/to-languages they-shall-be-talking/they-shall-be-speaking new | Serpents they-shall-be-lifting/they-shall-be-picking-up and-if-ever deathly/deadly any/anything they-may-be-drinking not no them it-shall-be-harming on un-fare-wells/ones-ailing hands they-shall-be-placing-on and ideally[recovery = my own conclusive interpretation of the adverb's meaning] they-shall-be-having.

Now these signs to the believers shall fully follow; in my name they shall eject demons, and new languages they shall speak, serpents they shall take away, and if they ever drink any poison [absolutely none of] them shall be harmed, they shall lay hands on the sick and [idealness, goodness, wellness and recovery] they shall have.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi "Travis"...  :winkgrin:

Willie, he didn't tell the man not to call him good, he asked him why he did.

I did not say that "Travis"... I said that CHRIST noted only ONE was GOOD... and deferred that WORD ("good") to GOD... which in his question of the man included that He was not due this, but GOD WAS...  :dontknow:

The man probably didn't know that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh

Just like YOU "probably" don't know that you are enslaved within making a false witness here @ Tentmaker... eh?

This is an ASSUMPTION made by you... Please name me the verse that SAYS that CHRIST  was GOD in the flesh?  You ASSUME this because it has been taught you by MEN... but the WORD  does NOT TESTIFY this.

so Jesus Christ asked him why he called him good, then he went on to explain that only God is good.

Sorry Travis... but you illogically HIDE from what was SAID... JESUS  asked "why CALLEST thou ...ME... Good?"  Then went on to say that "there only ONE GOOD (and JESUS  had already eliminated Himself as being that "ONE" by asking this question)  ...that is GOD"

Willie, you said The WORD  is GOD...

John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The "WORD" is YHVH God... JESUS CHRIST  is the Son which was AS I ALSO SAID... is the EXPRESSED IMAGE of God... and IMAGE is not the SOURCE it is a reflection or LIKENESS of its SOURCE.

The "WORD" that made flesh... was the MAN JESUS CHRIST... which DID and SAID (which includes WORDS)... NOTHING ...of Himself...  YHVH  sired JESUS CHRIST  the man... just as He MAKES flesh, all men...

The WORD however, unlike ALL other men... was manifest by the INDWELLING (in FULLNESS) of YHVH God  -- Col 2:9   -- which was the "ONE" speaking and doing the things that the MAN called JESUS CHRIST, appeared to "DO"... but IN TRUTH, admitted that He did NOT speak or do ANYTHING, and this admission was made in His own words, ...which I have already noted.

Man cannot become God

I completely disagree with this, for YHVH  calls the sons of men --- "gods" -- Psalm 82:6 -- so men do not have to "become" gods... they are ALREADY "gods" for YHVH  has proclaimed them as such, "Travis"... or don't you believe ...the TESTIMONY of the Scriptures?

however, God can become a man, and he did, his name is Jesus Christ.

Though it is true that NOTHING is impossible for or with GOD... Because things are not impossible for Him, does not mean that He shall do them... Just as YOU are able to be a MURDERER, but just because you are able to MURDER, does not mean that you SHALL MURDER on the basis that you are ABLE.  :dontknow:

JESUS CHRIST  did a few things that displace Him from being GOD...

ONE --- is that GOD cannot DIE and remain EVERLASTING... Neither can a portion of Him DIE, otherwise He in His EXISTENCE is changed, and can no longer be considered as "EVERLASTING"... JESUS CHRIST  --- DIED.

TWO -- the Scriptures note that GOD is NOT A MAN (neither the SON of MAN) -- Numb 23:19 -- 1 Sam 15:29 -- JESUS CHRIST  was INDEED a MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5

THREE --- GOD cannot be TEMPTED with evil -- James 1:13 -- well, again JESUS CHRIST,  was TEMPTED in EVERY WAY a man can be tempted -- Heb 4:15 -- Matt 4:1 -- Mark 1:13

And Jesus Christ died on the cross so that we can have forgiveness of sins and salvation, and he rose again three days later and lives forevermore.

Matthew 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

FIRST --- There is more involved here than your SURFACE observations... You are not here to learn, but I believe it to be my duty to deflect the fallacies that you have presented on this forum in the past, and are here to revisit those lies once again...

SECOND --- His "NAME" [emmanuel] is IESOUS (#G2424) -- Which is derived from the  HEBREW [YeHoVsHua -- #H3091] which means YHVH saves... 

The NAME is the indication of this verse... and YHVH  in NAME visited the earth by DWELLING in the MAN -- 1 Tim 2:5 -- JESUS CHRIST... Which bore the "NAME" [emmanuel], God with us... IESOUS = YHVH  SAVES.

THIRD -- YHVH  God  does NOT ever CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 --If indeed, He were to be BORN as a MAN of FLESH... it means that He has CHANGED from both being fully SPIRIT, and from INVISIBILITY as well...  THAT is not what occured...

In SPIRIT, YHVH continued to be INVISIBLE while INDWELLING the (visible) MAN, JESUS CHRIST, who admittedly DID and SAID nothing of Himself... and followed to the letter, the directions of YHVH  God within Him, as they were PROPHESIED...  and in doing and saying as YHVH  God directed Him to, YHVH  God saved the human race...

YHVH visited the earth FULLY invested WITHIN the MAN JESUS CHRIST  as I have already noted in -- Col 2:9 -- I do not contend against this at all...

But YHVH  GOD did not DIE, nor was YHVH  GOD tempted, nor did YHVH  GOD EVER become a MAN, for HE CHANGES NOT. 

Were He to "BECOME" anything means He has CHANGED, ...were He to BECOME other than INVISIBLE means that He has CHANGED, ...were He to BECOME other than SPIRIT and INTO flesh means that He has CHANGED, ...that He would DIE means that He has CHANGED from a position of LIVING... 

The TRUTH is that He DID none of these things, however... the MAN which was His SON, named JESUS CHRIST  ...did ALL these things.

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

As I see it, ...this is more short sightedness.  Are you saying that CHRIST  is His own Father?  Please!  :rolleye:

For if indeed the MAN JESUS CHRIST sired Himself, then WHO is --- "the FATHER", and what are His duties, and WHY is He called FATHER, when JESUS is performing both things (son & father)?  :rolleye:  This is nonsense.  Yet YOU believe it.

1 Timothy 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The SON was indeed a manifestation of His work... just as YOU are "Travis" (and so are ALL the rest of us!)...

GOD is manifest in the flesh IN YOU, is He not?  Whenever you DO as HE commands... is HE not manifest IN YOU?  If not, what IS being manifest in you, "Travis"?

Are you masquerading as a BELIEVER in Him?  Did YOU save yourself, "Travis"?  Is it YOU which preaches to us?  Or have you DIED to yourself, and it is HIM -- manifest IN YOU that preaches to us?  Which is it? :dunno:

You claim to come here to preach the GOSPEL... yet what GOOD NEWS have you brought us today, "Travis"... and how long will it be before you turn tail and run away again?  :sigh:

Why don't you just lay down your obstinance, and believe the TRUE GOSPEL... which is SUCH GOOD NEWS... it cannot be contained... in that GOD's LOVE not only is able to SAVE ALL it SHALL!  ... AND He so LOVED the WORLD in its wretched condition, that He sent His SON to redeem us from ourselves in that we were YET SINNERS when all this was manifest -- Rom 5:6-8 

His LOVE dear brother, is much much LARGER than just saving you, "Travis"... and it is a pretty small observation that notes SELF as saved, and easily condemns OTHERS which are in the WORLD that GOD so LOVES... As JAMES said... this OUGHT NOT SO TO BE! -- James 3:9-15

Hebrews 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

CHRIST  is the firstborn MAN/SON of MANY to come, ...which YHVH  has named as "god's", "Travis"... The Scriptures callls ALL of us "gods"...

The "Throne" that is CHRIST's ...was already YHVH's... for CHRIST ...sat down in HIS FATHER's throne, and invites us to do the same -- Rev 3:21 -- The "throne" was ALREADY "forever" -- "Travis"... before CHRIST sat upon it... for it was HIS FATHER's throne, ...that He "sat down in"...  :dontknow:

Don't you know by now dear brother, ...that YOU shall not barge in here and push the TRUTH around?  ...here is hoping that you shall finally LEARN the TRUTH in your heart... instead of the MIND of your flesh... which had contained before, and still  contains EASILY refutable beliefs... :pitiful:

willieH  :cloud9:

[Travis]

So we're taking another go-round eh, Travis?  Before you left last time weren't you trying to convince us of the same?

You say "universalism is false".  So we'll recognize what you've said is your understanding/opinion.

So what exactly causes you to come back?  To "present the gospel of Jesus Christ"?  Great!  The Good News is posted all over this website, and many other places.  No argument here, that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God, He died and rose again for our sins and life.  The tomb is empty, He sits at the right hand of God and receiving His own. 

Are you here to discuss and perhaps learn, or for some other reason?

James.

The Gospel says that people need to repent of their sins and believe in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins and was raised again three days later and lives forevermore. It also says that those whom do not repent and believe will die in their sins and be damned eternally.

Universalism on the otherhand is a different gospel where there is eternity in heaven for everyone, at some point.

Jesus Christ said that there be few whom will find the way which leadeth unto life.

Matthew 7:14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Universalism says all shall find the way eventually.


It is a big difference overall. The entire focus is different.

From what I have noticed, the focus of the universalism gospel tends to want to tell people they are saved or how they will be saved eventually. Basically, the focus is on universalism.

The focus of the real Gospel is to deeply warn people of the wrath to come, show them how they have sinned against a Holy God, and tell them how they may be saved by repenting and believing in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins and salvation, by accepting the free gift.

The universalism gospel message is a different gospel that incorporates some parts of the real Gospel.

[Lefein]

The universalism gospel message is a different gospel that incorporates some parts of the real Gospel.

Can you show me a verse that tells specifically what the Gospel is?

[willieH]

Universalism says all shall find the way eventually.

That is NOT AT ALL what it says "Travis"...

Universalism is the belief that the SHEPHERD finds ALL the LOST SHEEP... for it is not up to the SHEEP to "deliver" themselves... it is up to the SHEPHERD to FIND that which was LOST -- Luke 15:32 -- Luke 15:4

willieH  :cloud9:

[Travis]

Also, universalism seems to forget about the goats.

Matthew 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Universalism says all shall find the way eventually.

That is NOT AT ALL what it says "Travis"...

Universalism is the belief that the SHEPHERD finds ALL the LOST SHEEP... for it is not up to the SHEEP to "deliver" themselves... it is up to the SHEPHERD to FIND that which was LOST -- Luke 15:32 -- Luke 15:4

willieH  :cloud9:

[Lefein]

Nations, not individuals. 

Note of interest; the word used for goat, is more accurately translated as "kid", a baby goat.

Basically, He'll gather all nations, and like a shepherd separating the adult sheep from the baby goats, shall sit adult sheep on his right hand, and baby goats on his left.

[Travis]

The universalism gospel message is a different gospel that incorporates some parts of the real Gospel.

Can you show me a verse that tells specifically what the Gospel is?

What I did was present things that the Gospel says.

As far as the universalism gospel, I presented the things that I noticed are different as much as I could, as many universalists don't agree with themselves on many of the particulars.

[Lefein]

What I did was present things that the Gospel says.

But what is the Gospel, according to the word?

In essence; show me a verse that says along the lines; "The gospel is such and such", that I can discuss with you over.  Since, we're comparing Gospels here, and you have stated that Universal Reconciliation is a different Gospel from the real one which you say is a warning against the wrath to come (strange considering it is good news).

So, what does the Bible specifically say it is?  That is what I asked. :)

[Travis]

Universalism seems to forget about the goats, or explain them away.

Matthew 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Nations, not individuals. 

Note of interest; the word used for goat, is more accurately translated as "kid", a baby goat.

Basically, He'll gather all nations, and like a shepherd separating the adult sheep from the baby goats, shall sit adult sheep on his right hand, and baby goats on his left.

[Lefein]

Koine Greek, literal translation, and my rendering.

Kai apeleusontai houtoi eis kolasin aionion hoi de dikaioi eis zoen aionion.

And shall-be-coming-from these/these-ones into chastening[chastisemen] eonian[eon-lasting/world-lasting|lasting as long as the chastisement lasts] the yet just-ones[righteous-ones] into life eonion[eon-lasting/world-lasting|lasting as long as life lasts].

And these shall go away into chastisement [lasting as long as chastisement lasts: until the subject is purified and refined], yet the righteous into life [lasting as long as life lasts: Eternal]

G2851  kolasis  kol'-as-is

from G2849;

penal infliction.


KJV: punishment, torment.

Chastisement is not vindictive infliction of pain, it is remedial punishment towards a goal.  Otherwise it would not be penal infliction, it would be vindictive, remorseless, ceaseless, goal-less, purposeless, vain abuse of the image of God, which a human soul, spirit, being - sinful or not, saved or not, is.

God does not abuse his own image, nor will he - that would be evil of him to abuse his children, twice evil for him to do it perpetually, exponentially, and ceaselessly into infinity.  Likewise, since chastisement is punishment that is remedial - with the goal of purifying, and making right the punished object - if that goal is not met, and is not able to be met (IE: never ending torture and separation from God, perpetual infliction of pain with no end, nor achievement of the goal to refine, and purify; eternal damnation) God would be a failure, having failed in his own task in that chastisement - refining the criminal, purifying the sinner.  God is Love, and Love never fails.

–verb (used with object), -tised, -tis·ing.
1.
to discipline, esp. by corporal punishment.
2.
to criticize severely.
3.
Archaic . to restrain; chasten.
4.
Archaic . to refine; purify.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chastisement

Regarding Aion, Aionios - see other sources as to why it does not mean in itself "forever" outside of God's aionian life.

[Travis]

What I did was present things that the Gospel says.

But what is the Gospel, according to the word?

In essence; show me a verse that says along the lines; "The gospel is such and such", that I can discuss with you over.  Since, we're comparing Gospels here, and you have stated that Universal Reconciliation is a different Gospel from the real one which you say is a warning against the wrath to come (strange considering it is good news).

So, what does the Bible specifically say it is?  That is what I asked. :)

I have been presenting the Gospel and showing the way to be saved from the wrath to come, even in my Introduction thread. This is my intent to continue to present the Gospel here, so that people may be saved, by repenting of their sins and believing in Jesus Christ for forgiveness of sins, by accepting the free gift. And to warn of the wrath to come for all whom would reject the free gift.

I have presented some differences, but you want to discuss the matter in a different way. I don't want to discuss the matter in a different way right now. I am happy with the way I am currently doing it.

[Lefein]

I asked only for a verse that tells us specifically what the good news is. 

Specifically, are you preaching the Gospel as the Bible says it is?  Or not.  If you are, what does the Bible say it is?  If you aren't, then you see the problem before you.

Lets pretend I am unsaved, lets pretend I am an open minded atheist...What does your holy book say your good news is?  What verse, what chapter, what line shall you quote to me?  Let me hear it from the holy book itself, what its followers and readers say it says.

[Travis]

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19  And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 3:36  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

[Travis]

Romans 2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

1 John 3:7  Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11  ¶For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.